Is Skadden NY That Bad? Forum

[Anonymous User]

OK, first off, WLRK pays above market. K&E does not.

Here's the dirty little secret you don't hear about. You know how when you see a bonus memo on ATL and it has all the pablum and then buried somewhere it says "Bonuses will be paid to associates in good standing"?

Ever stop to think about what that means? I know I didn't for my first two years, when everyone was in 'good standing'. Or if I did, I thought it meant "didn't bring a goat to the office who ate an important document" or something like that.

Nuh uh.

So at every firm you have some sort of end-of-year review. It is normally conveniently times a few weeks before bonuses are announced. At that meeting, starting in about your third year or so, a big chunk of the associates in your class year will get some version of the following speech:

"You're an excellent lawyer, but your hours/work product/cut of your face is not at the level of some of your peers in your class year. So this year, you won't be receiving our bonus. And we think that maybe another firm would be a better fit for you in the long term - maybe that's something you should consider."

Then the firm will announce that EVERY associate received X bonus. And if you got that speech, and you are not a total fucking idiot, you will pretend like you did too, because that's the best way to get another job or to maybe change things around at your firm and make them want to keep you (NB: this is a terrible idea). The only person you might tell are your LS friends, after many drinks, when you let your guard down a hair. (As far as I know my firm does not give that talk because I've never heard anyone here admit they got it, but it seems 2/3rds of my friends from law school got it if you get them drunk enough. I find it hard to believe my firm is that much of a special flower. I think it's all done very discreetly.)

I can't speak to other firms but this is not true at Skadden. Many practice groups don't even do the the annual reviews. It's almost exclusively hours based (1600). The only reason I say almost is that there are probably a few exceptions, but for the vast majority of associates the only factor is hours.

[Anonymous User]

Which are practice groups that bill more? M&A?

Corporate finance in NY is very understaffed. Banking as well.

M&A is a huge group so it depends on which clients/partners you work with, but they generally bill a lot too.

Am Skadden associate. On pace to bill 1700 this year. Was at 1900 last year. This is perfectly normal for my practice group and several others, although there definitely are certain practice groups where the average is more like 2500.

(guy who is about to get the talk)

Actually the year I billed 1900 multiple partners told me to watch out that I'm not overextending myself. Like I said, most folks in my group are around 1800.

[wons]

I can't speak to other firms but this is not true at Skadden. Many practice groups don't even do the the annual reviews. It's almost exclusively hours based (1600). The only reason I say almost is that there are probably a few exceptions, but for the vast majority of associates the only factor is hours.

No one gets counseled out at Skadden. Sure. (makes the jerky-jerky motion).

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Cravath/S&C/Skadden/STB/DPW/Cleary are better about paying bonuses to people who get counseled out, at least in year 3 before the number gets bigger.

[Anonymous User]

No one gets counseled out at Skadden. Sure. (makes the jerky-jerky motion).

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Cravath/S&C/Skadden/STB/DPW/Cleary are better about paying bonuses to people who get counseled out, at least in year 3 before the number gets bigger.

We were talking about bonuses, not getting counseled out. Everybody who doesn't make partner (most everyone) ends up going somewhere else, and I'm sure some of it is based on "advice" from career development partners (I can't remember what they are called). However, In my experience (I worked there, but was one person out of 700, so take it for what it's worth) the counseling out for most people happened from years 5-7 when people can't bill junior work any more. Even then, I know senior associates who haven't hit their hours for years and still stick around.

No one is saying that Skadden, or biglaw in general, is a bed of roses. I just think a lot of myths really are just myths. I also think that a lot of the worst parts of biglaw (like being counseled out after being strung along for years) is more common outside the top 10 to 15 firms. An overwhelming majority of people who leave the top firms leave by choice.

[smaug]

Sorry I find it hard to believe that Skadden attorneys are, on average, billing something like 5-600 hours less than the implicit target at peer firms. Flatly not buying it at all.

And to be clear, to believe what you're selling you have to believe one of two things:

Either:
(1) Pretty much everyone at peer firms lies about their hours. I have at firms throughout the V20. In lit at least, hours below 2000 seems like an anomaly. I'd wager that the hours end up being closer to 3k than 2k, and again, that's not just DPW, or just S&C, or just Cleary: I'm saying on aggregate talking to my friends, that seems true. But, in actuality they're liars and they're in line with what you're talking about at Skadden.

(2) Skadden is a magic profit machine that's able to get more profit per billable hour than any of its peers (or, frankly, firms with better reputations). They're so good at this that not only do they manage to crank out insane profits with fewer hours billed, they also can guarantee that they'll pay bonuses, and not push people out of the firm.

I hope you can see why I don't really like either option. So, instead I choose (3) Either you're lying about who you are, lying about your experiences, or you're just blithely unaware of what's going to happen to you soon.

[Anonymous User]

...to be fair, I shouldn't pick on K&E because there are a dozen NYC firms in that sort of middle tier who play the same game).

Egregious anti-K&E trolling at the end, otherwise highly informative post.

[wons]

No one gets counseled out at Skadden. Sure. (makes the jerky-jerky motion).

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Cravath/S&C/Skadden/STB/DPW/Cleary are better about paying bonuses to people who get counseled out, at least in year 3 before the number gets bigger.

We were talking about bonuses, not getting counseled out. Everybody who doesn't make partner (most everyone) ends up going somewhere else, and I'm sure some of it is based on "advice" from career development partners (I can't remember what they are called). However, In my experience (I worked there, but was one person out of 700, so take it for what it's worth) the counseling out for most people happened from years 5-7 when people can't bill junior work any more. Even then, I know senior associates who haven't hit their hours for years and still stick around.

No one is saying that Skadden, or biglaw in general, is a bed of roses. I just think a lot of myths really are just myths. I also think that a lot of the worst parts of biglaw (like being counseled out after being strung along for years) is more common outside the top 10 to 15 firms. An overwhelming majority of people who leave the top firms leave by choice.

Typical Skadden - "can still bill junior work" up to year 5. See how far that takes you at Cravath or S&C or DPW. If your point is that you can hide doing BS busy work at Skadden for longer than at other firms, then no argument from me.

Seriously, though, I don't think of it as "being counseled out after being strung along for years". There's a mutual interest in keeping associates at the firm as long as their skill level allows it - you're more profitable the more senior you get and your job opportunities are better, which means you're more likely to think positively of your experience at a firm (it opened doors!) and more likely to send business back (since you're more likely to be in a position where you're picking outside counsel).

I know at my firm, you have to be actively, borderline maliciously incompetent to get a talk before your third annual review. The idea is that if they can push you through 3 years, they want to make that happen as much as possible. I can't imagine Skadden is any different in that regard (by reputation, it isn't, and your 'testimony' is consistent with that.)

[wons]

...to be fair, I shouldn't pick on K&E because there are a dozen NYC firms in that sort of middle tier who play the same game).

Egregious anti-K&E trolling at the end, otherwise highly informative post.

Not intended to be trolling. K&E, Latham, Weil, Wilkie, Gibson . . . that's the tier I'm thinking about. At least among my peers that's sort of conventional wisdom for the second tier of NYC transactional firms, though if the rep is changing among law students then, OK.

[Anonymous User]

Ah, my bad then, I thought you were referencing the firm as a whole instead of just corporate. I don't know what their corp rep is as I'm not interested in that area, though amongst the corp focused students at my school I know K&E offers are considered pretty positively.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry I find it hard to believe that Skadden attorneys are, on average, billing something like 5-600 hours less than the implicit target at peer firms. Flatly not buying it at all.

And to be clear, to believe what you're selling you have to believe one of two things:

Either:
(1) Pretty much everyone at peer firms lies about their hours. I have at firms throughout the V20. In lit at least, hours below 2000 seems like an anomaly. I'd wager that the hours end up being closer to 3k than 2k, and again, that's not just DPW, or just S&C, or just Cleary: I'm saying on aggregate talking to my friends, that seems true. But, in actuality they're liars and they're in line with what you're talking about at Skadden.

(2) Skadden is a magic profit machine that's able to get more profit per billable hour than any of its peers (or, frankly, firms with better reputations). They're so good at this that not only do they manage to crank out insane profits with fewer hours billed, they also can guarantee that they'll pay bonuses, and not push people out of the firm.

I hope you can see why I don't really like either option. So, instead I choose (3) Either you're lying about who you are, lying about your experiences, or you're just blithely unaware of what's going to happen to you soon.

First, I don't know how many people lie about their numbers and I don't know what averages are at other firms. I just know what Skadden showed us at the last state of the firm address that I attended (summer 2014), which was around 1700-1800 hours on average (and supported by several other posters in this forum). I assume it is true because the firm wasn't making it sound like a good thing. At the same address, the firm noted that other peer firms had similar hours, but I have no way of knowing how they came about those numbers or if they are true. It could easily be different at a place like Wachtell that doesn't have all the specialty groups that Skadden has. I also don't know if Skadden was counting actual hours or realized hours, but for bonuses the firm uses actual hours.

I'm not going to answer your second point because the inaccuracies and unsubstantiated subjective statements speak for themselves.

Finally, I think I've disclosed enough details about Skadden to substantiate the fact that I used to work there. For what it's worth (and I guess it won't be worth much to you) I currently work in a different market at another V-10 firm. I am on pace for around 2700 hours this year (by personal choice - I could easily get away with taking on a lot less work) and am easily the highest billing associate in the office. The 3000 hour thing happens to people from time to time, but I won't believe any firm has associates averaging 2500-3000 hours a year until I see hard numbers to back it up (and then I will humbly admit that I am wrong).

[wons]

Finally, I think I've disclosed enough details about Skadden to substantiate the fact that I used to work there. For what it's worth (and I guess it won't be worth much to you) I currently work in a different market at another V-10 firm. I am on pace for around 2700 hours this year (by personal choice - I could easily get away with taking on a lot less work) and am easily the highest billing associate in the office. The 3000 hour thing happens to people from time to time, but I won't believe any firm has associates averaging 2500-3000 hours a year until I see hard numbers to back it up (and then I will humbly admit that I am wrong).

Maybe we're saying the same thing. I think average for my firm is probably around 1900-2000, but that's dragged down by folks who aren't on the track, even if they don't know it yet. I think that if you're in the 2200-2400 range, you're fine (if your goal is to make it 5+ years), and 2400-2500 certainly puts you in the top quarter for your year. Anyone 2600 and up for multiple years is a legit gunner, probably near the top of their class in hours. I can't imagine any firm AVERAGING that many hours; that sounds insane.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe we're saying the same thing. I think average for my firm is probably around 1900-2000, but that's dragged down by folks who aren't on the track, even if they don't know it yet. I think that if you're in the 2200-2400 range, you're fine (if your goal is to make it 5+ years), and 2400-2500 certainly puts you in the top quarter for your year. Anyone 2600 and up for multiple years is a legit gunner, probably near the top of their class in hours. I can't imagine any firm AVERAGING that many hours; that sounds insane.

I can agree with that. I think what most people don't get until they actually work at biglaw is that it is not the absolute hours that kill you. People with experience think 2400 hours is a lot because it is never in increments of 200 hours a month (which is actually somewhat comfortable). Most of the exaggerations I see in these forums are people taking a couple months of numbers and multiplying them out over the year. My first year of biglaw I had three months where I billed over 280 hours but I only had 2100 for the year. This is especially prevalent at the so-called elite firms which literally do turn all documents overnight regardless of how unrealistic it can be (most of the V-20 are like this).

I'm going to let this thread either get back on track or just die at this point. My only main point was that Skadden is not really any better or worse than its peers. Myths aside, I don't think your experience at a NY V-10 firm will vary much based on the firm you choose.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to what it is like to work at Skadden in smaller markets, especially in small offices?

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone add anything regarding culture? Is the fratty reputation Skadden is famous for (at least on this site) legitimate? How does it compare to other V10s in that respect?

[Anonymous User]

Barring crazy all-nighter deals, would love to get a sense when most people "leave" the office - e.g. is half the office still lit up at 7? 9? 10? 11?

[wons]

Barring crazy all-nighter deals, would love to get a sense when most people "leave" the office - e.g. is half the office still lit up at 7? 9? 10? 11?

You're missing the point of the above chain.

Assuming you're transactional, you will leave when you can leave - and some days that's 6PM, some days that's 12AM, and most importantly, you won't know in advance which day is which. You should assume that on average you're working till 8:30ish, but you can do that last hour at home if you want, and it's kind of a bell curve with 2SD being 5:30PM and midnight. Having to physically stay at the office after 11PM is not super common, but then you'll have a crazy deal or clients in Asia and you'll be doing it every day for a month.

What does this mean? If you want to go to the gym at night, or have time to cook yourself (a late) dinner, most days you will. If you want to make scheduled appointments at 7PM or 8PM - dates, drinks with friends, shows, organized sports - you'll miss about a third to a half of them, often with just an hour or two warning before you have to bail. So basically you will not be scheduling stuff during the week except with other lawyers where there is a tacit understanding that all stuff that you plan is tentative until you see the whites of each others' eyes.

This is true for every transactional practice in NYC. So Skadden will be no different from any other firm. Chasing QOL will just make you disappointed.

[Anonymous User]

Barring crazy all-nighter deals, would love to get a sense when most people "leave" the office - e.g. is half the office still lit up at 7? 9? 10? 11?

You're missing the point of the above chain.

Assuming you're transactional, you will leave when you can leave - and some days that's 6PM, some days that's 12AM, and most importantly, you won't know in advance which day is which. You should assume that on average you're working till 8:30ish, but you can do that last hour at home if you want, and it's kind of a bell curve with 2SD being 5:30PM and midnight. Having to physically stay at the office after 11PM is not super common, but then you'll have a crazy deal or clients in Asia and you'll be doing it every day for a month.

What does this mean? If you want to go to the gym at night, or have time to cook yourself (a late) dinner, most days you will. If you want to make scheduled appointments at 7PM or 8PM - dates, drinks with friends, shows, organized sports - you'll miss about a third to a half of them, often with just an hour or two warning before you have to bail. So basically you will not be scheduling stuff during the week except with other lawyers where there is a tacit understanding that all stuff that you plan is tentative until you see the whites of each others' eyes.

This is true for every transactional practice in NYC. So Skadden will be no different from any other firm. Chasing QOL will just make you disappointed.

Gotcha. Appreciate the clarification.

[Anonymous User]

Having worked at Skadden NY and now at a branch office of another top firm, I would say that for the most part things haven't changed much. We still have crazy clients with ridiculous demands and that seems to be the rule everywhere these days. One plus of smaller offices is that the volume of work is much less, so if a deal closes you could get a legitimate couple of days off before things pick up again (you don't learn as much that way though, so it isn't necessarily as good in the long run). The biggest disadvantage I have seen is that Skadden NY has so many bodies that you can usually plan a vacation/day off and have someone there to cover for you (especially as a junior). At smaller offices there can literally be no one available to take over for you for that vacation you've been planning for six months, and forget about last second emergencies. You are often on the hook for everything related to a specific client and on much more leanly staffed teams. In this way, my lifestyle is much worse now than when I was at Skadden NY.