SA finding law firm social wasteland Forum

[smaug_]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

[DELG]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I feel like some people, from all kinds of backgrounds, think it's okay to be unprofessional in white collar environments without realizing they're making other people uncomfortable.

And I'm not a fucking K-JD, I'm just a normal adult with normal adult sensibilities.

[smaug_]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I feel like some people, from all kinds of backgrounds, think it's okay to be unprofessional in white collar environments without realizing they're making other people uncomfortable.

And I'm not a fucking K-JD, I'm just a normal adult with normal adult sensibilities.

I don't disagree with this. This is why I'm glad people can choose where to work/why firms interview people, right? Just think it's silly to claim that one's preferred work environment is more "professional" or somehow better fits that mold. I'm sure some people love the atmosphere at DPW. I'm sure some people love the atmosphere at Skadden. Kinda odd to expect everyone to fit into the same bucket.

[84651846190]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I've worked in a F500 company and at a biglaw firm. In both environments, people were polite, boring and G-rated. Part of it is because large organizations put a high premium on "diversity" and train everyone to avoid controversial topics or potentially offensive situations/comments at all costs. Part of it is because people don't have the time/energy to come up with awesome one-liners all day because they're actually working instead of pretending to work and thinking about fucking the secretary two cubicals away.

[DELG]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I feel like some people, from all kinds of backgrounds, think it's okay to be unprofessional in white collar environments without realizing they're making other people uncomfortable.

And I'm not a fucking K-JD, I'm just a normal adult with normal adult sensibilities.

I don't disagree with this. This is why I'm glad people can choose where to work/why firms interview people, right? Just think it's silly to claim that one's preferred work environment is more "professional" or somehow better fits that mold. I'm sure some people love the atmosphere at DPW. I'm sure some people love the atmosphere at Skadden. Kinda odd to expect everyone to fit into the same bucket.

I find it unprofessional to alienate people for being a different race, gender, sexual orientation, age, family status, socioeconomic background, religion, even when it's funny. Take out all those things and you're left with some pretty G-rated topics. Casting that shit as mere cultural differences is disingenuous.

[smaug_]

I find it unprofessional to alienate people for being a different race, gender, sexual orientation, age, family status, socioeconomic background, religion, even when it's funny. Take out all those things and you're left with some pretty G-rated topics. Casting that shit as mere cultural differences is disingenuous.

There's a world of difference between someone being sexist/classist/racist/whatever else and keeping stuff G-rated. I've been in work environments where people don't curse. I've been in work environments where people swear like sailors. I've been in work environment where people are very polite. I've been in work environments where people are really fucking blunt and don't do things to save your feelings.

None of those things equate with the above. I can't tell if we're just talking past one another here, or whether you think that they're tantamount, but I certainly find that line easy to draw.

[DELG]

I find it unprofessional to alienate people for being a different race, gender, sexual orientation, age, family status, socioeconomic background, religion, even when it's funny. Take out all those things and you're left with some pretty G-rated topics. Casting that shit as mere cultural differences is disingenuous.

There's a world of difference between someone being sexist/classist/racist/whatever else and keeping stuff G-rated. I've been in work environments where people don't curse. I've been in work environments where people swear like sailors. I've been in work environment where people are very polite. I've been in work environments where people are really fucking blunt and don't do things to save your feelings.

None of those things equate with the above. I can't tell if we're just talking past one another here, or whether you think that they're tantamount, but I certainly find that line easy to draw.

Cursing would alienate a lot of religious/conservative people. Very vanilla work environments maximize the number of people who are able to "fit in" and succeed.

[84651846190]

I find it unprofessional to alienate people for being a different race, gender, sexual orientation, age, family status, socioeconomic background, religion, even when it's funny. Take out all those things and you're left with some pretty G-rated topics. Casting that shit as mere cultural differences is disingenuous.

There's a world of difference between someone being sexist/classist/racist/whatever else and keeping stuff G-rated. I've been in work environments where people don't curse. I've been in work environments where people swear like sailors. I've been in work environment where people are very polite. I've been in work environments where people are really fucking blunt and don't do things to save your feelings.

None of those things equate with the above. I can't tell if we're just talking past one another here, or whether you think that they're tantamount, but I certainly find that line easy to draw.

I don't really understand what your ideal work environment would be from what you're saying. Are you pining away for something like the Sopranos where everyone swears all the time, makes crude jokes, slaps each other on the ass, etc. (but without saying anything officially branded "offensive" by the politically correct thought police)? You can have intelligent, normal conversations with most attorneys at biglaw firms because most of the attorneys are intelligent enough to have informed opinions about a variety of topics. You don't have to display some sort of contrived, grabasstic attitude all the time to be an awesomely fun coworker.

[smaug_]

I don't really understand what you're ideal work environment would be from what you're saying. Are you pining away for something like the Sopranos where everyone swears all the time, makes crude jokes, slaps each other on the ass, etc. (but doesn't say anything patently offensive)? You can have intelligent, normal conversations with most attorneys at biglaw firms because most of the attorneys are intelligent enough to have informed opinions about a variety of topics. You don't have to display some sort of contrived, grabastic attitude all the time to be an awesomely fun coworker.

I don't really get where y'all are getting this. (or the idea that somehow I want to work with racists/misogynistic jerks above) All I said was "not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism."

And again, I'm glad that people can gravitate to cultures that appeal to them. I guess part of what I'm saying is, do you think that being DPW-esque is inherently better than something else? I can only think of one interaction with a law firm that I thought was 'unprofessional' (interestingly it was a Cleary attorney, but I'm sure he was an outlier) but I definitely thought that atmospheres seemed different and were definitely different from places I had worked prior to law school.

ETA: maybe a more specific example: There's a difference between someone not adding the word "please" when asking you to do something, or giving you a blunt assessment of your work and someone cracking jokes about minorities/being a gordon gecko type. My point isn't that the latter is "professional" but rather that the former isn't particularly "unprofessional."

[Holly Golightly]

Eh, I disagree with a lot of what's said ITT. There are plenty of things you can discuss in professional work environments that are much more interesting than the weather and what people's boring kids did at school that week. I hate polite chit chat about shit that I have zero interest in.

I've also worked in a few offices where swearing was completely acceptable, and I definitely prefer that.

[DELG]

Eh, I disagree with a lot of what's said ITT. There are plenty of things you can discuss in professional work environments that are much more interesting than the weather and what people's boring kids did at school that week. I hate polite chit chat about shit that I have zero interest in.

Well. It's not like the only g-rated topics are weather and kids.

[DELG]

I don't think it would come as a surprise to anyone that I have a mouth on me even at work but there's no denying that some people from some backgrounds find that pretty alienating and I think it's more professional and friendly to a diversity of backgrounds to foster a culture that keeps it cleaner.

[Holly Golightly]

Well at Golightly & Delg, LLP, I want swearing, god dammit.

[DELG]

Well at Golightly & Delg, LLP, I want swearing, god dammit.

Oh... I don't think anyone would accuse us of "professionalism"

[sublime]

..

[rinkrat19]

I found myself wondering if OP's coworkers are actually extremely chill and friendly when he's not around, and they just don't like him at all.

"Boy, it's sure hot out today, eh?" could mean "JFC, I wish this tool would just go away so the rest of us can get back to planning tomorrow's secret happy hour."

[KidStuddi]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I've worked in a F500 company and at a biglaw firm. In both environments, people were polite, boring and G-rated. Part of it is because large organizations put a high premium on "diversity" and train everyone to avoid controversial topics or potentially offensive situations/comments at all costs. Part of it is because people don't have the time/energy to come up with awesome one-liners all day because they're actually working instead of pretending to work and thinking about fucking the secretary two cubicals away.

I've had about five different jobs in white collar environments going back to my days in college, including three stints in BigLaw, first as a paralegal, then as a summer in two different firms 1L and 2L, and now again as an associate and I'd never describe my experiences at a single one of them as "G-rated" or bland.

I think this is just one of those "you get out of it what you put in" situations. If you present yourself as a walking stiff with no discernible personality because that's what you consider "professional," people will respond in kind so as to not make you uncomfortable. But, believe me, we're still having our fun, cracking jokes, playing pranks, and having social interaction beyond "sure is nice outside." And before you start acting as though this is the province of juvenile 20 somethings lacking work ethic, I've had these types of relationships with support staff, associates of all levels of seniority, partners, men, women, black, white and asian. Hell, I went bar hopping until 3am with two older white senior partners at my firm 3 weeks in to my SA. I'm neither old nor white. Maybe I've had phenomenal luck in the co-worker lottery, or maybe I'm just not boring, I don't know.

But on the balance of probabilities, I find it strains credulity to believe that any firm of a sufficient size doesn't have several contingents of people with similar interests / senses of humor / desire for social interaction, who enjoy each other's company. Especially considering how much of a "relationships business" law is. Sometimes it took me a few weeks or months to find the people I click with, or for them to find me, but it's invariably happened. If everyone around you is uniformly boring / toning it down, there's probably something about you that makes them think they have to, lest you report them to the fun police.

Also, it strikes me as implausibly ironic that some of you guys are using "diversity" as a rationale for stomping out all differences of opinion in favor of monolithic homogeneity; this must be one of those perverse incentives I've heard so much about.

[Danger Zone]

Only semi related, but I fit in perfectly at the pd's office I am at. Cursing, crude jokes, super liberal. Makes me worry about how I would fit in at a firm.

My firm has the first two of those traits, but then is also filled with people complaining about obummer.

[DELG]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I've worked in a F500 company and at a biglaw firm. In both environments, people were polite, boring and G-rated. Part of it is because large organizations put a high premium on "diversity" and train everyone to avoid controversial topics or potentially offensive situations/comments at all costs. Part of it is because people don't have the time/energy to come up with awesome one-liners all day because they're actually working instead of pretending to work and thinking about fucking the secretary two cubicals away.

I've had about five different jobs in white collar environments going back to my days in college, including three stints in BigLaw, first as a paralegal, then as a summer in two different firms 1L and 2L, and now again as an associate and I'd never describe my experiences at a single one of them as "G-rated" or bland.

I think this is just one of those "you get out of it what you put in" situations. If you present yourself as a walking stiff with no discernible personality because that's what you consider "professional," people will respond in kind so as to not make you uncomfortable. But, believe me, we're still having our fun, cracking jokes, playing pranks, and having social interaction beyond "sure is nice outside." And before you start acting as though this is the province of juvenile 20 somethings lacking work ethic, I've had these types of relationships with support staff, associates of all levels of seniority, partners, men, women, black, white and asian. Hell, I went bar hopping until 3am with two older white senior partners at my firm 3 weeks in to my SA. I'm neither old nor white. Maybe I've had phenomenal luck in the co-worker lottery, or maybe I'm just not boring, I don't know.

But on the balance of probabilities, I find it strains credulity to believe that any firm of a sufficient size doesn't have several contingents of people with similar interests / senses of humor / desire for social interaction, who enjoy each other's company. Especially considering how much of a "relationships business" law is. Sometimes it took me a few weeks or months to find the people I click with, or for them to find me, but it's invariably happened. If everyone around you is uniformly boring / toning it down, there's probably something about you that makes them think they have to, lest you report them to the fun police.

Also, it strikes me as implausibly ironic that some of you guys are using "diversity" as a rationale for stomping out all differences of opinion in favor of monolithic homogeneity; this must be one of those perverse incentives I've heard so much about.

I think you misunderstand what I am getting at. Obviously people are going to have a diversity of interests, including interests in bar hopping until 3 am and telling crude jokes, at an institution like DPW. The question is more about what baseline "culture" the firm presents, especially to summers. If the expectation at a firm is "we're a work hard, play hard place where you might find yourself at a bar til 3 am with a couple of chill partners, chatting about what they last sexted," a lot of people would find that culture pretty alienating: people from certain religious backgrounds, people with young children, recovering alcoholics, etc. I also don't think anyone is suggesting there aren't biglaw firms with that sort of culture as the baseline. I can think of at least one. But I'd still call it unprofessional.

[twenty 8]

My firm has the first two of those traits, but then is also filled with people complaining about obummer.

I don’t understand the “why of it” but I receive (for some inexplicable reason) a fair amount of (supposedly humorous) emails trashing O. Inexplicable because I never discuss politics and never reply to these O emails. Granted most of these emails originate from clients (to our attorneys) who unexplainably feel compelled to forward them.

[smaug_]

I think you misunderstand what I am getting at. Obviously people are going to have a diversity of interests, including interests in bar hopping until 3 am and telling crude jokes, at an institution like DPW. The question is more about what baseline "culture" the firm presents, especially to summers. If the expectation at a firm is "we're a work hard, play hard place where you might find yourself at a bar til 3 am with a couple of chill partners, chatting about what they last sexted," a lot of people would find that culture pretty alienating: people from certain religious backgrounds, people with young children, recovering alcoholics, etc. I also don't think anyone is suggesting there aren't biglaw firms with that sort of culture as the baseline. I can think of at least one. But I'd still call it unprofessional.

And what I was trying to say is that there's some middle ground between DPW and the bro-y-est work hard, play hard firms, and it isn't that odd to think that some people would find a DPW-like environment stifling. (that and balking at the idea it's inherently more 'professional' or that the super-politeness is somehow an intrinsic good to be desired by everyone)

[DELG]

I think you misunderstand what I am getting at. Obviously people are going to have a diversity of interests, including interests in bar hopping until 3 am and telling crude jokes, at an institution like DPW. The question is more about what baseline "culture" the firm presents, especially to summers. If the expectation at a firm is "we're a work hard, play hard place where you might find yourself at a bar til 3 am with a couple of chill partners, chatting about what they last sexted," a lot of people would find that culture pretty alienating: people from certain religious backgrounds, people with young children, recovering alcoholics, etc. I also don't think anyone is suggesting there aren't biglaw firms with that sort of culture as the baseline. I can think of at least one. But I'd still call it unprofessional.

And what I was trying to say is that there's some middle ground between DPW and the bro-y-est work hard, play hard firms, and it isn't that odd to think that some people would find a DPW-like environment stifling. (that and balking at the idea it's inherently more 'professional' or that the super-politeness is somehow an intrinsic good to be desired by everyone)

It's pretty much my definition of "highly professional" (along with highly ethical and highly competent). Whether it's "good" or not, there's more room for debate, but I can certainly see what's good about it, as I have pretty exhaustively addressed at this point.

[84651846190]

Actually disagree with some of the sentiment above. Not all people in professional jobs act "G-rated" 24/7 and that does not equal professionalism. I feel like some people, especially K-JDs get this idea of what "professional work" is and go to a law firm and play dress-up and put on what they deem to be a "professional" persona.

I agree that I'd much rather be somewhere where there are boundaries and people feel obligated to keep their dress/interpersonal interactions/whatever else in check, but the way that some people act at law firms is absolutely not "the way people act at work."

I've worked in a F500 company and at a biglaw firm. In both environments, people were polite, boring and G-rated. Part of it is because large organizations put a high premium on "diversity" and train everyone to avoid controversial topics or potentially offensive situations/comments at all costs. Part of it is because people don't have the time/energy to come up with awesome one-liners all day because they're actually working instead of pretending to work and thinking about fucking the secretary two cubicals away.

I've had about five different jobs in white collar environments going back to my days in college, including three stints in BigLaw, first as a paralegal, then as a summer in two different firms 1L and 2L, and now again as an associate and I'd never describe my experiences at a single one of them as "G-rated" or bland.

I think this is just one of those "you get out of it what you put in" situations. If you present yourself as a walking stiff with no discernible personality because that's what you consider "professional," people will respond in kind so as to not make you uncomfortable. But, believe me, we're still having our fun, cracking jokes, playing pranks, and having social interaction beyond "sure is nice outside." And before you start acting as though this is the province of juvenile 20 somethings lacking work ethic, I've had these types of relationships with support staff, associates of all levels of seniority, partners, men, women, black, white and asian. Hell, I went bar hopping until 3am with two older white senior partners at my firm 3 weeks in to my SA. I'm neither old nor white. Maybe I've had phenomenal luck in the co-worker lottery, or maybe I'm just not boring, I don't know.

But on the balance of probabilities, I find it strains credulity to believe that any firm of a sufficient size doesn't have several contingents of people with similar interests / senses of humor / desire for social interaction, who enjoy each other's company. Especially considering how much of a "relationships business" law is. Sometimes it took me a few weeks or months to find the people I click with, or for them to find me, but it's invariably happened. If everyone around you is uniformly boring / toning it down, there's probably something about you that makes them think they have to, lest you report them to the fun police.

Also, it strikes me as implausibly ironic that some of you guys are using "diversity" as a rationale for stomping out all differences of opinion in favor of monolithic homogeneity; this must be one of those perverse incentives I've heard so much about.

As I understood it, the OP was directing his/her comments to the environment at work. People obviously behave differently outside of work than at work. The kind of environment you describe is extremely rare in biglaw, when you're talking about how people act at work. In fact, I've literally never heard of any biglaw firm with that kind of environment. Sure, there are crazy things that happen outside of work, but anyone with a modicum of professionalism isn't going to be putting whoopy cushions under the managing partner's chair and giggling like a little girl on a Monday morning. There's a time and place for everything. People at work usually want to, well, work. If they wanted to dick around, they'd go out.

[LikeLightning]

OP I feel you. I'm baffled by the idea that having a sense of humor is incompatible with professionalism and hard work. The people advocating that opinion are exactly the ones who make law firms sterile.

One of my interviewers told me that, at their firm, people take their work seriously without taking themselves seriously. For me, that's the ideal.

Also, people ITT repeatedly are making a false equivalence between being interesting and being offensive / talking about sexual escapades at work. That's ridiculous. You can be interesting, even somewhat edgy, without being offensive, or talking about topics that aren't work appropriate. As an example, say I'm a Sox fan, and last night they crushed the Yankees. My neighbor (or even a partner I'm working with) is a Yankees fan. To what extent is good-natured ribbing acceptable? The answer to this question will certainly vary among individuals, but it may also vary among firms. I'd prefer to work somewhere where it's acceptable for people to give each other some shit, at least among associates.

It's also absurd to claim that nobody has time for this sort of thing because they're working balls-to-the-wall every second they're in the office. Anyone who thinks that has clearly never worked a real job... Yeah, people work super hard most of the time, and during certain periods may have no time for anything but work. But most days, people will have time for a two-minute chat every now and again in the halls.

Also, to the guy who said that people don't have time to come up with one-liners because they're working so much: You clearly don't understand how wit works.

[Cogburn87]

You mean overworked strivers who are mostly dead inside aren't funny or gregarious?

I'm shocked. Just shocked.