Former V5 associate, former federal clerk, taking questions Forum

[Lexaholik]

Fire away.

[Anonymous User]

How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?

[Lexaholik]

How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?

I left as a fourth year (2 years as an associate and 2 yr clerkship). Sorry for being unclear, I'm a former clerk. I'll be joining a plaintiff's firm next.

[Elston Gunn]

How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?

I left as a fourth year (2 years as an associate and 2 yr clerkship). Sorry for being unclear, I'm a former clerk. I'll be joining a plaintiff's firm next.

Any advice for someone starting in biglaw who'd like to exit to a p firm someday?

[Lexaholik]

How many years as an associate? Also, what are you intending to do post-clerkship?

I left as a fourth year (2 years as an associate and 2 yr clerkship). Sorry for being unclear, I'm a former clerk. I'll be joining a plaintiff's firm next.

Any advice for someone starting in biglaw who'd like to exit to a p firm someday?

Yes. Make sure your financial house is in order because you will be taking a significant paycut. The longer you stay in biglaw, the bigger the paycut will be. If you have high monthly expenses (loans, mortgage, expensive habits) you might not be able to make the jump.

With regard to the actual work, I don't know if I can comment on that since I haven't started on the P's side yet.

[exitoptions]

Did you have an open offer to return to the V5, and if so, why don't you want to return?

[toothbrush]

What other options did you have on the table for you when making your decision not to return, besides going to a p firm?

[Lexaholik]

Did you have an open offer to return to the V5, and if so, why don't you want to return?

My clerkship was sandwiched between two stints at my V5. The first time I left, they told me that I could come back. I didn't want to return, but due to life circumstances, I later returned. I do not plan to return in the future. My main problem with biglaw is (1) it's not a good fit for my personality and (2) you are trading your personal time and skill development for money. After a while it wasn't hard to figure out that continuing to stay would be a mistake.

[Lexaholik]

What other options did you have on the table for you when making your decision not to return, besides going to a p firm?

As mentioned in my above response, I decided to go P side after my second biglaw stint. I didn't examine my other options, although I probably could have done some other defense biglaw/midlaw. I make decisions by choosing what I want to do first, then figuring out a way to get it second, instead of seeing what my options are and choosing among them. Personal style I guess.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

1) how hard is it to go from a top vault firm to plaintiffs?

2) For hiring in a plaintiffs firm, how different is the skill set that they are looking for compared to big law?

congratulations on the career trajectory, I'd love to do the same.

[Lexaholik]

1) how hard is it to go from a top vault firm to plaintiffs?

2) For hiring in a plaintiffs firm, how different is the skill set that they are looking for compared to big law?

congratulations on the career trajectory, I'd love to do the same.

1. I can't speak generally but in my personal experience, it wasn't terribly difficult. The downside is that it's an unstructured process (no formal recruitment procedure) and there isn't a lot of information out there on how to do it. I was lucky because my firm happened to have an opening when I applied. The interesting thing is, if you are good enough on paper to get into biglaw, you're good enough on paper to get into a P's firm. But paper creds seem to be a small part of getting a job on the P side. Other important factors are how you present yourself, your perceived personality, social skills, and other intangibles.

2. It didn't seem too different based on what my interviewer asked me. Biglaw skills are useful on the P's side. The difference seems to be more personality driven. Are you better suited to being super thorough, checking every detail, even at the expense of efficiency? Or are you more aggressive, unafraid of risk, and efficient?

[Anonymous User]

Were you in NYC or another market, and I'm assuming you're lit - how much do you think being in a different market would have changed your experience? Would you have chosen a different firm if you could, prestige be damned?

[Anonymous User]

What kind of P firm are you going to? One of the big national class action firms (Lieff Cabraser, Korein Tillery, etc), or an employment discrimination/1983-type firm? Or are you going somewhere more regional?

[Anonymous User]

Were you in NYC or another market, and I'm assuming you're lit - how much do you think being in a different market would have changed your experience? Would you have chosen a different firm if you could, prestige be damned?

Yes, NYC. I do think it may have been different in another market, based on what I hear from my friends in other cities. In NYC it's generally large scale securities litigations or massive investigations. Those types of cases are staffed heavily and the accompanying hierarchy can be stifling.

I have no regrets though. I chose my firm because of its reputation, but it wasn't just for prestige. Very early on, I realized that the prestige rat race is a losing proposition-you can never win that game. But going to a top firm did give me tremendous optionality in an uncertain world. The Lehman collapse happened a week after I received my offer. Since then, I never once worried about job security-a rare occurrence in today's legal market. My firm also had strong resume value because it created a presumption (rightly or wrongly-the jury is still out) that I am a good lawyer, and undoubtedly helped me (at least partially) land my clerkship and my plaintiff's firm job. If I wanted to leave law entirely, it would have been helpful too. I was given a generous clerkship bonus, and was always paid at NYC lockstep rates.

In retrospect I probably would have been happier and would have learned more at a small boutique. But then I'd give up a lot of the benefits described above. I'm not sure I would have been willing to make that tradeoff so early on in my career.

[Lexaholik]

What kind of P firm are you going to? One of the big national class action firms (Lieff Cabraser, Korein Tillery, etc), or an employment discrimination/1983-type firm? Or are you going somewhere more regional?

It's one of the big national class action firms. I would have loved to work for a smaller, regional specialist firm though. When I was clerking, I realized that's where the action was.

[forza]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

[Lexaholik]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.

[DELG]

Tag.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, NYC. I do think it may have been different in another market, based on what I hear from my friends in other cities. In NYC it's generally large scale securities litigations or massive investigations. Those types of cases are staffed heavily and the accompanying hierarchy can be stifling.

I have no regrets though. I chose my firm because of its reputation, but it wasn't just for prestige. Very early on, I realized that the prestige rat race is a losing proposition-you can never win that game. But going to a top firm did give me tremendous optionality in an uncertain world. The Lehman collapse happened a week after I received my offer. Since then, I never once worried about job security-a rare occurrence in today's legal market. My firm also had strong resume value because it created a presumption (rightly or wrongly-the jury is still out) that I am a good lawyer, and undoubtedly helped me (at least partially) land my clerkship and my plaintiff's firm job. If I wanted to leave law entirely, it would have been helpful too. I was given a generous clerkship bonus, and was always paid at NYC lockstep rates.

In retrospect I probably would have been happier and would have learned more at a small boutique. But then I'd give up a lot of the benefits described above. I'm not sure I would have been willing to make that tradeoff so early on in my career.

Have you seen these tangible benefits from picking a V5 with your peers who went into corporate (re: exit options)? I picked one over some other firms that seemed to be less demanding/ associates worked less hours, with the idea that it would be the right launching point for a career. For people who are fortunate to choose among the top firms, would you say that these firms are worth it?

[Lexaholik]

Yes, NYC. I do think it may have been different in another market, based on what I hear from my friends in other cities. In NYC it's generally large scale securities litigations or massive investigations. Those types of cases are staffed heavily and the accompanying hierarchy can be stifling.

I have no regrets though. I chose my firm because of its reputation, but it wasn't just for prestige. Very early on, I realized that the prestige rat race is a losing proposition-you can never win that game. But going to a top firm did give me tremendous optionality in an uncertain world. The Lehman collapse happened a week after I received my offer. Since then, I never once worried about job security-a rare occurrence in today's legal market. My firm also had strong resume value because it created a presumption (rightly or wrongly-the jury is still out) that I am a good lawyer, and undoubtedly helped me (at least partially) land my clerkship and my plaintiff's firm job. If I wanted to leave law entirely, it would have been helpful too. I was given a generous clerkship bonus, and was always paid at NYC lockstep rates.

In retrospect I probably would have been happier and would have learned more at a small boutique. But then I'd give up a lot of the benefits described above. I'm not sure I would have been willing to make that tradeoff so early on in my career.

Have you seen these tangible benefits from picking a V5 with your peers who went into corporate (re: exit options)? I picked one over some other firms that seemed to be less demanding/ associates worked less hours, with the idea that it would be the right launching point for a career. For people who are fortunate to choose among the top firms, would you say that these firms are worth it?

With regard to exit options, I would say that going V5 is more important for corporate than it is for litigation. First, there is the resume value that I describe above. But second, I noticed that at my firm, the corporate people gained extremely substantive work experience on large deals. (As in, the deal would be staffed by a partner, a senior associate, and a junior associate.) That's a very different experience than litigation, where you'd get better experience in a smaller case. And third, corporate offers what appears to be a more natural segue into in-house positions with the clients we serve.

I'm not sure a more demanding firm provides all that; it's just that the few firms that have a reputation for placing well also happen to be higher on the vault list and that happen to have a sweatshop reputation. For example, I'm not sure you're better served by going to Boies Schiller (a notable sweatshop) than Shearman.

I'll qualify that by saying that my view is not based on direct, firsthand experience but on conversations I've had with friends.

[forza]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.

Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.

[DELG]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.

Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.

Lol obviously not no tax bracket in the US is over 50%

[reasonable_man]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.

Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.

Most bonuses get destroyed in taxes (the tax rate is huge on bonus income). I'm considering changing firms and one thing I'm trying to do is get more in salary and less by way of a bonus.

[Lexaholik]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.

Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.

Most bonuses get destroyed in taxes (the tax rate is huge on bonus income). I'm considering changing firms and one thing I'm trying to do is get more in salary and less by way of a bonus.

My clerkship was actually a bit under 2 years and my firm offered 60k. The tax bite is huge, although I'll note that there's no special tax rate on "bonus income." It's just that the bonus is taxed at a higher marginal rate, so it feels like they're taking away a higher percentage.

[09042014]

Assuming you have them, what did your student loan situation look like (1) in year one at the firm, (2) before and after the clerkship, and (3) now? And how much of a dent, if any, were you able to make in your loans with the clerkship bonus?

Started off 150k in the hole. (1) knocked off about 25k after my first stint in biglaw; (2) knocked off about 35k during clerkship; (3) debt free now. I put all of my clerkship bonus (about 35k post tax) towards debt. I'm pretty frugal so it didn't take too long after my second biglaw stint to wipe the slate clean.

Did you get the 75k two-year bonus? If so, 40k to taxes? Jesucristo.

Most bonuses get destroyed in taxes (the tax rate is huge on bonus income). I'm considering changing firms and one thing I'm trying to do is get more in salary and less by way of a bonus.

Just the withholding is different. It's all teh same come April 15th