3L, F**k It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

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Decide my future

Fuck it, go to San Francisco: might as well try given your current situation
27
38%
Stay in Ohio: you're seriously out of your mind, stay with where your ties are located and avoid the risk
37
52%
Middle Ground: don't put all your eggs in either basket (this option is discouraged, but if you pick it, please explain)
7
10%
 
Total votes: 71

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AVBucks4239
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3L, F**k It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:46 pm

I'm going to put the TL;DR first. If you want more details, scroll down:

Here's the TL;DR: I'm a 3L at Ohio State with decent grades. I didn't get an offer last summer, the job search has been impossible and miserable thus far, and I'm tired of it. So I'm strongly considering San Francisco. I'm posting here for people to say, "Fuck it, I agree with you, might as well try given how bad the Ohio market is," or, "You're out of your god damned mind."

Here's more details:
-From Ohio. Family in Ohio. Undergrad at Ohio State.
-Currently a 3L at Ohio State with decently solid grades (not quite top 10% material, but very respectable).
-Probably going to graduate with $110k debt (law school plus undergrad)
-Published on Business Law Journal, currently Note Editor.
-Summered at a firm in Akron, where only one out of five SAs got offers (I was obviously not one). This has made getting interviews very difficult (hard to explain why I didn't get an offer without getting an interview).
-No luck at 3L OCI, either.
-I've sent out 109 applications to Ohio firms, got one interview, and it sucked (the guy asked me some dumb question about mountain climbing).
-I'm tired of all this bullshit.
-I love San Francisco. Probably my favorite city in the US. Just visited there again this past weekend. Had lunch and phone conversations with half a dozen alums. Going again in January.
-Generally speaking, OSU alums in San Francisco have been incredibly helpful and receptive. Several have also made it sound like they would go to the plate for me to try and help out in any way possible.
-One more alum thing: I had lunch with an OSU alum, and in short, he basically said that there are 2-3 extremely well established OSU grads out there who can make things happen in terms of getting me, at minimum, part time work while I search for full time employment. He did this (did doc review for about six months), networked, and got FT employment within a year. Anecdotal, of course, but that would be a career path I'd be willing to stomach.
-All this is likely making me irrationally optimistic for the SF market.
-I'm going to be in SF again in January to continue networking with alums.
-Because of the seemingly impossible job chase in Ohio, fuck it, I really want to go out to The City and make a go of it.


So, have I lost my mind, or should I actually start signing up to take the California bar?

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EtherOne
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby EtherOne » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:51 pm

I would give it a try, especially if you are OK with working at a non-lawyer type job. Plus, it will be a fresh new start, and with proper connections, you might be able to secure a position at a smaller firm. Just be prepared (I am sure you will be) of answering why you decided to move to San Francisco.

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:58 pm

2L at Boalt.

I think you should do it.

However, I want to warn you that the job market out here is really horrible. Through the grapevine, people who were getting offers in NY, LA, and even DC were getting few bites in SF/SV.

iplulzer
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby iplulzer » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:58 pm

No opinion either way but you haven't said when you're planning to move. If we're talking post-grad, then I'm not sure there is a need to decide now.

You also haven't said your career goals (e.g., would a non-legal job be worth it to you? It does sound like it).

Nothing wrong with moving to your dream location as long as you're prepared for the hustle and lay as much ground as possible. Countless young men and women have been doing this for ages...

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AVBucks4239
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:05 pm

iplulzer wrote:No opinion either way but you haven't said when you're planning to move. If we're talking post-grad, then I'm not sure there is a need to decide now.

You also haven't said your career goals (e.g., would a non-legal job be worth it to you? It does sound like it).

Nothing wrong with moving to your dream location as long as you're prepared for the hustle and lay as much ground as possible. Countless young men and women have been doing this for ages...

I should have made this more clear.

First, I'm looking to make the decision soon because I have to sign up for the Ohio Bar/Character and Fitness by November. That would be more than $600 down the drain if I choose to move to SF.

Second, in terms of career prospects, I'm prepared to hustle, but definitely want to end up with a legal job within 12-18 months. I could stomach non-legal work for a while, but I definitely don't see myself doing PR for the next five years.

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Old Gregg
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:10 pm

The question is not whether you should consider SF, but whether SF would consider you.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby AVBucks4239 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:13 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:The question is not whether you should consider SF, but whether SF would consider you.

Point taken. But I'm here for people with more experience than me to try their best in answering the latter.

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:14 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:The question is not whether you should consider SF, but whether SF would consider you.


This. I've been mass mailing California firms like crazy and have gotten zero bites (although I've only looked at big law). I'm probably median, T14 outside of California. It depends on what level of firm you're looking at... and how small of an apartment you're willing to take. $60k in SF is going to mean bunking up with multiple roommates in a crappy apartment. $60k in Ohio, now, that's living like a king.

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:15 pm

I vote SF. A key to getting a job is enthusiasm (not desperation).

dunkin
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby dunkin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:30 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:The question is not whether you should consider SF, but whether SF would consider you.


I agree with this. I think I'm in your situation, only one year later. I moved to southern CA to be closer to my SO, and one ridiculously tough bar exam and hundreds of applications later, I'm still in the Vale. I haven't reached out to alums as much as I probably should have, but I'm now working in an entirely non-law related job.

Back home (where I went to undergrad and law school, like you), I at least had contacts from internships and jobs to reach out to. The California market is extremely tough, and if you do come out here, be really ready for that. There have been moments where I've regretted my move, but now I'm fully prepared to retake the bar exam (already saving up at my non-law related job) and not be a lawyer for awhile. The exam here is truly a beast.

It's especially hard when you see friends who are already lawyers back home because their state doesn't take forever to release results, when you get job alerts from your home state that you'd actually have a shot at because your school is recognized there, and when everyone from T4 schools get interviews before you do because they were here for the past three years and the interviewer is from the same school.

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:47 pm

Another Boalt 2L here. The Bay Area market is truly horrendous right now. Not to be a negative-Nancy, but if you do choose to come out here, be prepared for a long, hard grind.

Ofta3184
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Ofta3184 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:51 pm

Edited
Last edited by Ofta3184 on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kolokena
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby kolokena » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:11 pm

Having just finished up the recruiting cycle here are my thoughts:

1. Come up with better ties than "I love San Francisco." I get the sense that firms are very concerned about flight risks.

2. Realize that the bay area legal market is hugely influenced by SV/tech companies. Is IP an interest of yours? If so, this is a great reason to move here/constitutes a believable "tie" to the area. But, an interest in IP can't easily be faked (at least here, with so many people genuinely interested in it). Start reading tech blogs, try to beef up your resume with indicators that you're interested in this area.

3. Also, I agree w/ the previous poster that SF is expensive. I wouldn't say NYC expensive. But still, relatively expensive if you want to live in SF proper (rental prices are insanely high right now).

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:14 pm

I think it may take you a few months (or even years) to find a job in the bay area, but Image

ganja
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby ganja » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:28 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:The question is not whether you should consider SF, but whether SF would consider you.

Point taken. But I'm here for people with more experience than me to try their best in answering the latter.

Look bro, you really helped me figure out my fanhood situation over in the CFB thread and for that, I'm forever indebted to you. Thanks bro. I'm really gonna try to help you here. I think you should fuck it and go to CA. it seems like the only stability you have in Ohio is having your fam there and if shit doesn't work out in CA, you'll end up in Ohio at your fams place anyway. YOLO bro. YOLO!!

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patrickd139
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:31 pm

Voted option 2: Stay in Ohio. Some thoughts, in no particular order.

You've sent out a few dozen emails. That's a good start, even if you didn't end up with an offer. But I look at it this way-- you had that outcome in a state where you attended both the flagship UG and law school, whose alumni flood the market, and where your ties are clearly the deepest. I can't imagine you're going to have anything close to that success in California. Think hard about whether you're reading too much into your anecdotal experience.

Have your lunch contact put you in touch with these 2-3 OSU super alums before you make this decision. That would be my first priority.

You mentioned "send[ing] out...applications to Ohio firms". Networking is clearly the best option for you, and one you appear to be pretty good at. It's apparently produced some tangible promising leads in SF. Why not apply those tactics to Ohio?

At the vary least, I'd sit for the Ohio bar and network over the break. Seems to me that you're hung up on applying for and then not sitting for, the OH bar exam. Can you still sign up for the CA bar exam later? It's better to waste $600 than put all of your eggs in one basket by foregoing the legal market where you have the most serious ties.

Grass is always greener, bro. Play the statistical odds on this one.

ganja
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby ganja » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:38 pm

ganja wrote:Look bro, you really helped me figure out my fanhood situation over in the CFB thread and for that, I'm forever indebted to you. Thanks bro. I'm really gonna try to help you here. I think you should fuck it and go to CA. it seems like the only stability you have in Ohio is having your fam there and if shit doesn't work out in CA, you'll end up in Ohio at your fams place anyway. YOLO bro. YOLO!!

YO-fuckin-LO

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:31 am

Rents for a 1 bedroom apartment without blood splattered on the walls are $2500-$3500 in San Francisco. My old studio apartment in San Francisco is now $2000. Even Oakland rents are skyrocketing, with some places $2000-$3000 for a 1 bedroom. My old apartment down in Silicon Valley used to be $1300 for a less than 500 square foot apartment, which is now $2700/month. I hope you know what you're getting into. Living here is different than visiting.

The rents are like Manhattan, but without the quality. It's really shocking.

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Miltiades
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Miltiades » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:14 am

Go West, young man.

I don't know if I'd say California, but definitely you could hustle out there and get a job. It might be tough at first though and there are better states for cost of living out there.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:22 am

ganja wrote:
ganja wrote:Look bro, you really helped me figure out my fanhood situation over in the CFB thread and for that, I'm forever indebted to you. Thanks bro. I'm really gonna try to help you here. I think you should fuck it and go to CA. it seems like the only stability you have in Ohio is having your fam there and if shit doesn't work out in CA, you'll end up in Ohio at your fams place anyway. YOLO bro. YOLO!!

YO-fuckin-LO

The Legal Employment forum is not for 0Ls: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=189981

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northwood
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby northwood » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:25 am

Ask yourself why you want to leave? And ask yourself this.... if you got a job offer( for any type of job) in Ohio AND Cali, would you stay?? You may be desperate, but try not to be foolish/ reckless

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:29 am

Go if you would rather have a 90% chance of unemployment in SF than a 60% chance in Ohio.

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:47 am

Since no one else is going to say it, I will. If you can't get a job in Ohio, odds are you won't be able to in San Francisco. Boalt guy is right about the market. Bay Area market is awful right now, and coming from the Midwest, you have no ties and no T14 degree to help you. People at my T6 with top 20% grades are having issues breaking into the SF market.

Edit: nvm someone else just said it

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los blancos
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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby los blancos » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:11 am

This is a tough one bro. I don't know what I'd do, but best of luck.

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Re: 3L, Fuck It, I Think I'm Going to Try for San Francisco

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:47 am

San Francisco is a great city. I would say go if you are willing to forgo a legal career and do PAYE.

As far as getting a job there as a lawyer, it's tough for anybody who doesn't have at least one of the following:
1) a CS/EE degree
2) a Stanford degree

And that's for people going through 2L recruiting at T14 or California schools. As an unemployed 3L from Ohio State, you'll need a miracle.

That said, I think you should consider the non-legal job + PAYE option. I know it's a hard pill to swallow that you've wasted 3 years and amassed a ton of debt, but really I think so many people would be better off if they'd just give up on law.




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