Interviewing from the young associate's POV

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Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:53 pm

Maybe I should wait to post this until next year, but anyway... In my first year at my firm, they've asked me to interview quite a few candidates over the callback (and callback lunch). This role has provided me with a unique perspective on the interviewing process. It has also caused me to reflect on what I probably did right or wrong when I was interviewing. Basically, all interviews that you do matter, even the ones with the young associates (though naturally interviews with the partners carry much more weight). Here's just a few tips derived from the common mistakes that I've seen candidates make:

- Don't get overly chummy. Naturally the young associates are close to your age, so to a large degree we're wondering whether we want to work with you. That said, we are aware that we're still conducting a quasi-interview and have to write up an assessment of you. If you start cussing a lot, for example, it almost comes off like you don't take us seriously and it feels a bit disrespectful. And yes, I've seen candidates gratuitously swear over lunch.

- Ask us questions. Remember, instead of interviewing you, we'd rather either eat our lunch at our desk with work in front of us so that we can leave an hour earlier. Or, honestly, we'd just rather go out and eat lunch without you. Since we've been asked to spend lunch with you, please use our time well. This is a great opportunity to get the real scoop on the firm or to get a perspective that will likely closely mirror your potential experience. So when we're eating lunch, we almost appreciate it when you ask, for example, "So, honestly, what work do you normally get..." "What's it like working with the partners..." Otherwise, it feels like you're wasting our time a bit and we're more likely to write a bad report.

-Remember, no matter how cool we seem, we have NO allegiance to you. In fact, the recruiting director helped to hire us, so we probably like him/her a lot and will tell this person whatever they want to know about you, including the dumb stuff you said or did. I've had candidates level with us that, they don't really want to work a lot of hours or that the firm isn't located in their preferred region, etc. Why would you say this to us? We'll rat you out in a heart beat.

-Don't mention other firms. There's nothing inherently wrong with saying that "I had a so-so callback with XYZ" but it puts us in a damn awkward position sometimes. Generally we are not supposed to bad mouth other firms or even to comment on other firms. So when you start mentioning other firms, all we can really do is kind of get quiet and not be able to comment. And plus, almost never does mentioning other firms help you in anyway.

- Bar rules: don't mention politics or religion.

I hope this is helpful to someone.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:21 pm

My recruiting is over but thanks for the input

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby brotherdarkness » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:57 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:32 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:At every single one of my CB interviews I was asked, by both the partners and the young(er) associates, what other firms I was interviewing with. If, as you put it, there's really no merit to this because you're not allowed to bad-mouth or even speak about other firms, why do so many firms seem curious to know where else I'm interviewing?


OP here. Yeah, naturally firms have different policies about such stuff. I think some firms are trying to gauge the possibility that you are going to go with them. They glean this from if you're interviewing with firms in that region or the caliber of those firms. I still don't think there's a lot of win in answering that question, but I have no idea. When I was the interviewee, I was always fairly evasive when asked, which may or may not have been a bad idea. My bigger point there was less per se mentioning other firms, but avoiding saying bad stuff about them.

I think part of it was when I've seen candidates do it gratuitously, at least for me, I got that internal reaction that I get when I'm talking to a shit talker. You know that guy that's talking shit on a person you know, making you wonder what they say about you when you walk about the room. Seems like a better idea to try to say nice, good things. Like I interviewed a 2L from my school and I casually mentioned a prof's name who I really liked and have the deepest respect for (though I didn't mention that part). Without prompting, the candidate started to talk about how bad of a prof she is. The point is, I think it's just a better idea to stay positive.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby BostonLove » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Maybe I should wait to post this until next year, but anyway... In my first year at my firm, they've asked me to interview quite a few candidates over the callback (and callback lunch). This role has provided me with a unique perspective on the interviewing process. It has also caused me to reflect on what I probably did right or wrong when I was interviewing. Basically, all interviews that you do matter, even the ones with the young associates (though naturally interviews with the partners carry much more weight). Here's just a few tips derived from the common mistakes that I've seen candidates make:

- Don't get overly chummy. Naturally the young associates are close to your age, so to a large degree we're wondering whether we want to work with you. That said, we are aware that we're still conducting a quasi-interview and have to write up an assessment of you. If you start cussing a lot, for example, it almost comes off like you don't take us seriously and it feels a bit disrespectful. And yes, I've seen candidates gratuitously swear over lunch.

- Ask us questions. Remember, instead of interviewing you, we'd rather either eat our lunch at our desk with work in front of us so that we can leave an hour earlier. Or, honestly, we'd just rather go out and eat lunch without you. Since we've been asked to spend lunch with you, please use our time well. This is a great opportunity to get the real scoop on the firm or to get a perspective that will likely closely mirror your potential experience. So when we're eating lunch, we almost appreciate it when you ask, for example, "So, honestly, what work do you normally get..." "What's it like working with the partners..." Otherwise, it feels like you're wasting our time a bit and we're more likely to write a bad report.

-Remember, no matter how cool we seem, we have NO allegiance to you. In fact, the recruiting director helped to hire us, so we probably like him/her a lot and will tell this person whatever they want to know about you, including the dumb stuff you said or did. I've had candidates level with us that, they don't really want to work a lot of hours or that the firm isn't located in their preferred region, etc. Why would you say this to us? We'll rat you out in a heart beat.

-Don't mention other firms. There's nothing inherently wrong with saying that "I had a so-so callback with XYZ" but it puts us in a damn awkward position sometimes. Generally we are not supposed to bad mouth other firms or even to comment on other firms. So when you start mentioning other firms, all we can really do is kind of get quiet and not be able to comment. And plus, almost never does mentioning other firms help you in anyway.

- Bar rules: don't mention politics or religion.

I hope this is helpful to someone.


Thanks for posting this!

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Hipster but Athletic » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:24 pm

Thanks!

Anonymous User wrote:My recruiting is over but thanks for the input

:lol:

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby fxb » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:49 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:At every single one of my CB interviews I was asked, by both the partners and the young(er) associates, what other firms I was interviewing with. If, as you put it, there's really no merit to this because you're not allowed to bad-mouth or even speak about other firms, why do so many firms seem curious to know where else I'm interviewing?


In my view, if asked, you must absolutely answer this question. Maybe it's a personal pet peeve, but I've been interviewing for years and I think it's a huge turn-off when an interviewee is cagey about where else they have callbacks/offers. And when I report to others on the hiring committee that a candidate wouldn't answer, there are usually more than a few chuckles. "Oh, top secret eyes-only information, huh?"

The way I usually ask is not during interviews but at the offer stage, when I call to "sell" our firm, and I'll say "who else are you considering?" It just seems downright strange when an interviewee weasels out of a question that I am asking so that I can help you. The "comparable" firms in my market are actually pretty different in terms of practice focus and philosophy, and while I won't badmouth them, I will try to gently guide you to understanding those differences.

That's the reason I ask it. The firm wants to know for broader market-related reasons. Who are we competing with in a practical sense? Who are we losing offerees to? Is another firm badmouthing us? (Frequently asking a candidate about what other firms they are considering leads to them telling us something that one of the other firms said about us, and it's important to understand what our "street rep" in the market is.)

All that said, an interviewee should probably never bring this up on their own. ("So, tomorrow I have a callback with Wachtell -- I don't know if you've heard of them?" )

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:16 pm

At OP and other associates: What advice would you give a law student about being too formal or using slang? Also, what are common qualities that would make you not want to work with a candidate? (Too quiet? Lack of opinion? Slow or fast speaker?)

Thank you.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby fxb » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:At OP and other associates: What advice would you give a law student about being too formal or using slang? Also, what are common qualities that would make you not want to work with a candidate? (Too quiet? Lack of opinion? Slow or fast speaker?)

Thank you.
Last edited by fxb on Thu May 08, 2014 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:24 pm

OPs post was all good stuff, but as a similarly situated associate, let me add a different perspective on a few things.

In no particular order:

The "where else are you doing call backs" question. I ask because I want to gauge your value in the market, meaning how desireable are you to other firms. No one ever told me this, it isn't a policy or anything. The question is also to gauge geographical interest, sure, but if the answer is "you're my only one," or is "BigLaw in Chicago," or "Ever Other Peer Firm In your Market," I get a sense of how you are being percieved and valued. You have to remember - we're RECRUITING - it's not an interview. We're squeezing the avocado to see if it's ripe (do people do that? I don't buy avocados), and no one wants cast offs.

The "don't get too chummy" thing. Eh, case by case. We are evaluating whether we want to work with you, sure. But I want to work with cool people. Overly formal, to me, means I'm not getting to know you at all, you think you're special, or you're hiding the fact that you're an asshole. I purposely present as a way laid back dude to get people to follow along. Either the person relaxes and we mesh, or they don't and we don't. My goal is to get them expose themselves as the pricks they truly, truly are, so I can ding them. Or recommend them for a job, if applicable.

As for the "ask us questions because we'd rather not be at lunch" - this varies depending on how busy I am, but personally I love a free expensive lunch on the firm, so yeah I'm there for you but mostly I'm there for the appetizers and steak. And I'm happy to talk about the firm, and I do - remember, we're trying to buy you, and I'm trying to sell the firm - but I'd rather talk about things normal people talk about when they are meeting for the first time. I guess I'm only trying to say, sure let's talk about the firm and my job, and I'm going to tell you about why I love it here, but let's not ONLY talk shop. If your interviewer asks you what you favorite class is, that interview is going poorly. We're at lunch, let's eat and be merry.

I'll talk shit about peer firms, whatever. Fuck'em. And if you tell me you didn't like your interview with them because X Y or Z, great. I think they smell bad too and are lousy dancers. Now I don't want to over-state this, and I guess I am, but again, it's all a sales pitch. I have to tell you why you should choose Coke over Pepsi when both are liquid and destroy your teeth and neither one really will get you laid. And I'll tell you everyone at firm ABC were jerks and snooty assholes in my call back and that is why I didn't accept their offer and chose my firm instead. And if someone says "well that might get back to those other firms," no it won't and if it did, so what? Maybe they shouldn't be such pricks to begin with. The truth hurts.

And the bar on politics and religion thing - always good advice. BUT, true story, in the call back for the firm I ultimately chose (I was interviewing in 2008), we talked for hours about the election and Sarah Palin being fucking crazy and all this shit. One person was probably liberal-ish, the other conservative-ish, but both were friends and we all knew how to talk and laugh like adults. It was my first, longest, and best call back. So just never say never, because you never know. Oh, and if you have work for politicians on your resume, you opened the door so expect it.

No cursing - of course not, BUT again, as in all things, never say never. Personally, I don't trust anyone who doesn't swear (a federal judge told me that), and frankly if I accidentally drop a swear word and you roll with it, I like you more. And it depends on the word.

The two words I think are OK if the interviewer is cool and the context is right are asshole and bullshit. YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT LAWYERS WITHOUT USING THOSE TWO WORDS. But never say anything sexual, or fuck.

The above are likely minority opinions, but you play to your panel, so as in many things in life and all good jokes, it's all about reading your audience and timing.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:27 pm

I want you to get a little chummy, if I'm an alum of your school. Unless you're a freak show I will go to bat for any grad of my school.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I want you to get a little chummy, if I'm an alum of your school. Unless you're a freak show I will go to bat for any grad of my school.


Seconded.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby fxb » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I want you to get a little chummy, if I'm an alum of your school. Unless you're a freak show I will go to bat for any grad of my school.


Seconded.


Agreed. Interviewees, the person on your schedule who went to your school is more than likely going to be your best resource for honest answers and perspective. Use it.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby thelawyler » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The two words I think are OK if the interviewer is cool and the context is right are asshole and bullshit. YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT LAWYERS WITHOUT USING THOSE TWO WORDS. But never say anything sexual, or fuck.


I had an interview where the partner was telling me stories about fucking chicks and nailing dumb broads as a young associate. I had no idea how I was supposed to respond.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:09 pm

thelawyler wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The two words I think are OK if the interviewer is cool and the context is right are asshole and bullshit. YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT LAWYERS WITHOUT USING THOSE TWO WORDS. But never say anything sexual, or fuck.


I had an interview where the partner was telling me stories about fucking chicks and nailing dumb broads as a young associate. I had no idea how I was supposed to respond.


This is the worst because you have no clue how to respond. I've had this happen to me in non-law interviews.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:26 pm

OP here.

fxb wrote:Don't be too formal or use too much slang. On the formal side, it's okay to dress nicely, it's okay to be polite, but we are wary about people who come across as too "stiff." We will have to travel with you to review documents, spend late nights with you creating binders, etc. We are thinking, "would I mind spending three days at our client's document warehouse with this guy." Maybe the analogy is treat the interview not like you're having a beer with your significant other, but like you're having a beer with your significant other's parents. You are respectful and courteous, but relaxed because you know this is a person who wants to like you.


This is perfect. Absolutely this. 100%. Also, I agree with this statement about showing passion. I should leave the interview knowing why you want to be a lawyer at my firm, which generally means you enjoy something or another.

Anonymous User wrote:OPs post was all good stuff, but as a similarly situated associate, let me add a different perspective on a few things.

The "where else are you doing call backs" question. I ask because I want to gauge your value in the market, meaning how desireable are you to other firms. No one ever told me this, it isn't a policy or anything. The question is also to gauge geographical interest, sure, but if the answer is "you're my only one," or is "BigLaw in Chicago," or "Ever Other Peer Firm In your Market," I get a sense of how you are being percieved and valued. You have to remember - we're RECRUITING - it's not an interview. We're squeezing the avocado to see if it's ripe (do people do that? I don't buy avocados), and no one wants cast offs.

The "don't get too chummy" thing. Eh, case by case. We are evaluating whether we want to work with you, sure. But I want to work with cool people. Overly formal, to me, means I'm not getting to know you at all, you think you're special, or you're hiding the fact that you're an asshole. I purposely present as a way laid back dude to get people to follow along. Either the person relaxes and we mesh, or they don't and we don't. My goal is to get them expose themselves as the pricks they truly, truly are, so I can ding them. Or recommend them for a job, if applicable.



I wanted to respond to these two points. The first thing you say is VERY true. Firms are sort of self-conscious beings and they don't want other people's castoffs or rejections. If a firm asks you where else are you doing callbacks, if you reply, "Only place I got a callback!" you are nearly sure to be dinged. 100%. You're better answering anything else but this. I agree not answering questions is bad, but it's not the worst thing. Try to be vague yet specific. "Just some firms here in NYC like Chardbourne."

Just to add to the not too chummy thing. I want to say that I do want to have a good connection with someone close to my age where I could foresee myself even being cool or being friends with that person. But you have to keep in mind that I'll be senior to you by a number of years by the time you are actually working and may be in a supervisory role over you. This could definitely be true as a summer associate. So it's important to have some level of not overly chummy.

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I want you to get a little chummy, if I'm an alum of your school. Unless you're a freak show I will go to bat for any grad of my school.


Seconded.


Thirded. I've dinged people who go to my school and it almost kills me inside to do it. But some people are total freaks and we simply cannot cannot give you a job. The people who you think "You must be that guy who everyone in the section hates." The more alumni of your school you interview with, the better for you. I imagine this is universal.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:47 pm

(I'm the anon who asked about formality and lack of opinion.)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm glad I asked before heading to my last cb. I've been told I come off a little too formal, but when I try to loosen up, I let slip words like "y'all" instead of "you all" or things to that effect.

About expressing interest in particular fields of law, I don't want to sound like preachy or like I'm talking out of my hat. What are some good ways to express interest without being assumptive or sounding arrogant?

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby kalvano » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:14 am

Curious how expressing significant interest in the firm is viewed. Does it come off as desperate to say the firm is a "dream firm" or a top choice?

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:21 am

How is immediately accepting a spot-offer viewed?

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(I'm the anon who asked about formality and lack of opinion.)

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm glad I asked before heading to my last cb. I've been told I come off a little too formal, but when I try to loosen up, I let slip words like "y'all" instead of "you all" or things to that effect.

About expressing interest in particular fields of law, I don't want to sound like preachy or like I'm talking out of my hat. What are some good ways to express interest without being assumptive or sounding arrogant?


Say that you think something sounds fun, interesting, stimulating etc, but of course, that's what makes their summer program great--you can get an opportunity to try it out. And you look forward to this opportunity. Presto.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:37 pm

kalvano wrote:Curious how expressing significant interest in the firm is viewed. Does it come off as desperate to say the firm is a "dream firm" or a top choice?


Maybe a bit. I wouldn't say those things because, it's sad to say, but the hiring market is a lot like dating. People wanted to feel desired by someone who can have someone else.

Also this is something that no one will hold against you, but if you tell a second year litigation associate that this is your "dream job," the lit associate will reflect on his own job of 80 hours/week, 78 of which are doc review, and think your comment's insane. But again, that'll be something that he'll chuckle about in his own head and not hold against you or anything. That said, just show a lot of enthusiasm and that's enough. Don't forget to praise whatever city you're in a lot.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How is immediately accepting a spot-offer viewed?

I accepted both my summer and end-of-summer offers on the spot. I suspect it endeared me to recruiting and no one else ever knew.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I wanted to respond to these two points. The first thing you say is VERY true. Firms are sort of self-conscious beings and they don't want other people's castoffs or rejections. If a firm asks you where else are you doing callbacks, if you reply, "Only place I got a callback!" you are nearly sure to be dinged. 100%. You're better answering anything else but this. I agree not answering questions is bad, but it's not the worst thing. Try to be vague yet specific. "Just some firms here in NYC like Chardbourne." .


I got asked this question by all 4 interviewers during my callback, and I told every one of them that they were my only callback. One of them even said "that's good news for us!" Offer.

It's probably still good advice to stay vague, but just wanted to let other people who gave this answer know that it's not a death sentence.

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
The "where else are you doing call backs" question. I ask because I want to gauge your value in the market, meaning how desireable are you to other firms. No one ever told me this, it isn't a policy or anything. The question is also to gauge geographical interest, sure, but if the answer is "you're my only one," or is "BigLaw in Chicago," or "Ever Other Peer Firm In your Market," I get a sense of how you are being percieved and valued. You have to remember - we're RECRUITING - it's not an interview. We're squeezing the avocado to see if it's ripe (do people do that? I don't buy avocados), and no one wants cast offs.



I wanted to respond to these two points. The first thing you say is VERY true. Firms are sort of self-conscious beings and they don't want other people's castoffs or rejections. If a firm asks you where else are you doing callbacks, if you reply, "Only place I got a callback!" you are nearly sure to be dinged. 100%. You're better answering anything else but this. I agree not answering questions is bad, but it's not the worst thing. Try to be vague yet specific. "Just some firms here in NYC like Chardbourne."


What if the answer actually is "Only place I got a callback"? Is there a good way to steer around that, or are you just boned in that case?

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Re: Interviewing from the young associate's POV

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I got asked this question by all 4 interviewers during my callback, and I told every one of them that they were my only callback. One of them even said "that's good news for us!" Offer.

It's probably still good advice to stay vague, but just wanted to let other people who gave this answer know that it's not a death sentence.


I am the anon right under the quoted anon. Guess I should have refreshed.




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