OCI Kvetching Time! Forum

[Anonymous User]

Also, would be interested to know if students at schools which use resume drops think they are more effective than mass mailing.

My T20 school has a bunch of resume collects in addition to normal OCI and I think they're pretty useless. I had significantly better luck through mass mailing on my own. Even grades were irrelevant - I think they just expend so much time and money on the schools they visit that it isn't worth it for them to also screen all of these extra resumes. Maybe you'd have better luck from YLS, but if they already don't visit for FIP, then they probably figure YLS students aren't interested

I'm the quoted OP. That was my suspicion.

And, as you suggest, I think the main problem with mass mailing at YLS is that non-FIP firms basically just assume that you're mass mailing them as backups in case you strike out at FIP. I mass mailed a few firms, and most of them just emailed me a rejection a few weeks later. However, I harassed one of the firms I mass mailed - asking the recruiting staff questions, telling them when I was going to be in town, etc - and eventually that firm gave in and offered me a CB. Presumably my series of emails convinced them I was seriously interested.

[bk1]

While generally CSOs are worthless (and Yale's are likely no exception), your expectations are ridiculous. Yale can't force firms to come to their OCI. When there is a class of 200ish students, most of whom want to end up in the northeast/DC (and many of whom are less likely to want to work at a large firm than other schools), it is no wonder that firms from other markets don't want to waste their time and money going to Yale. I'm also not sure that Yale has control over resume drops since my guess is that they are initiated by the firms.

More importantly though, you had access to a rough copy of this information prior to sending in your seat deposit to Yale. You could have looked up all this information on NALP (which, while outdated, offers a rough picture of attendance levels of firms from various markets). It's not like this should be brand new information.

[bk1]

And, as you suggest, I think the main problem with mass mailing at YLS is that non-FIP firms basically just assume that you're mass mailing them as backups in case you strike out at FIP. I mass mailed a few firms, and most of them just emailed me a rejection a few weeks later. However, I harassed one of the firms I mass mailed - asking the recruiting staff questions, telling them when I was going to be in town, etc - and eventually that firm gave in and offered me a CB. Presumably my series of emails convinced them I was seriously interested.

How do you even know the bolded is true? Most people from every school and every grade range get rejected by most of their mass mails. That's just how it works.

[soj]

Also, would be interested to know if students at schools which use resume drops think they are more effective than mass mailing.

My T20 school has a bunch of resume collects in addition to normal OCI and I think they're pretty useless. I had significantly better luck through mass mailing on my own. Even grades were irrelevant - I think they just expend so much time and money on the schools they visit that it isn't worth it for them to also screen all of these extra resumes. Maybe you'd have better luck from YLS, but if they already don't visit for FIP, then they probably figure YLS students aren't interested

I'm the quoted OP. That was my suspicion.

And, as you suggest, I think the main problem with mass mailing at YLS is that non-FIP firms basically just assume that you're mass mailing them as backups in case you strike out at FIP. I mass mailed a few firms, and most of them just emailed me a rejection a few weeks later. However, I harassed one of the firms I mass mailed - asking the recruiting staff questions, telling them when I was going to be in town, etc - and eventually that firm gave in and offered me a CB. Presumably my series of emails convinced them I was seriously interested.

Most mass mails lead nowhere. It's not unique to Yale. You have to go for both quality (as you did) and quantity.

[Anonymous User]

And, as you suggest, I think the main problem with mass mailing at YLS is that non-FIP firms basically just assume that you're mass mailing them as backups in case you strike out at FIP. I mass mailed a few firms, and most of them just emailed me a rejection a few weeks later. However, I harassed one of the firms I mass mailed - asking the recruiting staff questions, telling them when I was going to be in town, etc - and eventually that firm gave in and offered me a CB. Presumably my series of emails convinced them I was seriously interested.

How do you even know the bolded is true? Most people from every school and every grade range get rejected by most of their mass mails. That's just how it works.

Obviously, I don't know it's true. "I think" that's the main problem, but I admit I may well be wrong. But it might be that people at every school and grade range are rejected because: (a) for the top schools, the mass-mailed firms assume they're being used as backups; and (b) for the worse schools, the mass-mailed firms aren't interested. Still, I guess if that were the case there would be some kind of "sweet spot" between the two, which I imagine the evidence doesn't support.

[frankc]

Now OCI is over, I think it's time for kvetching about how our law schools mess things up.

I'll start with Yale's FIP:
- FAR too few firms, even in major markets. Want to work at Akin Gump? Don't go to Yale.
- No resume drops for firms that aren't interviewing (aside from for other offices of firms with hospitality suites)
- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

While I'm fortunate to have avoided striking out, everything was made far more stressful by FIP's poor coverage, which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs. Would things have been easier if I'd interviewed with NY firms? Yes. But I don't want to be in New York. Do most people ultimately get a SA offer somewhere? Yes, but for too many people, the only option is to start your career in NY and only move to where you really want to be later. We're currently in a situation where the law of small numbers means that even relatively good candidates (and my poor interviewing skills put me outside this group) risk having to go to a second-choice city because they have so few chances in their target markets.

holy shit

we found him

its the worst guy

User has been outed.

[Anonymous User]

i don't understand why people feel the need to discount OP's concerns. the fact that there are people with worse problems does not preclude him/her from voicing out his/her particular concerns.

maybe s/he went to yale so s/he wouldn't just have to take any offer and shut up. it might blow your mind but not everybody wants to work in ny/dc and maybe yale is not to blame but his/her issues are by no means ridiculous and deserving of crucifixion.

the issues s/he raises are useful for informational purposes considering the dearth of information about yls on tls.

[Druid]

i don't understand why people feel the need to discount OP's concerns. the fact that there are people with worse problems does not preclude him/her from voicing out his/her particular concerns.

Everything is relative. T14 students of any sort need to remember that.

[mephistopheles]

y'all are just jealous.

[NYstate]

i don't understand why people feel the need to discount OP's concerns. the fact that there are people with worse problems does not preclude him/her from voicing out his/her particular concerns.

Everything is relative. T14 students of any sort need to remember that.

You missed the point. OP was complaining that not every firm he wanted to work for comes to OCI. So he had to do some mailing, which he thought was a waste of time because the firms would assume a Yale student was too good for them and couldn't possibly be serious about wanting a job.

OP forgets that it is a competitive job market and not every firm has the interest or the space to hire. And that the vast majority of jobs are in New York and DC whether he wants to live there.

FYI, OP fails to mention that Yale students basically get all the interviews they sign up for at OCI. So by not having a firm come to New Haven for his benefit, career services creates a situation where he might not get a screener at the firm he wants. The horror!

Finally, OP got a job he wanted. So he is bitching for no reason other to complain about his personal inconvenience.

[Druid]

i don't understand why people feel the need to discount OP's concerns. the fact that there are people with worse problems does not preclude him/her from voicing out his/her particular concerns.

Everything is relative. T14 students of any sort need to remember that.

You missed the point. OP was complaining that not every firm he wanted to work for comes to OCI. So he had to do some mailing, which he thought was a waste of time because the firms would assume a Yale student was too good for them and couldn't possibly be serious about wanting a job.

OP forgets that it is a competitive job market and not every firm has the interest or the space to hire. And that the vast majority of jobs are in New York and DC whether he wants to live there.

FYI, OP fails to mention that Yale students basically get all the interviews they sign up for at OCI. So by not having a firm come to New Haven for his benefit, career services creates a situation where he might not get a screener at the firm he wants. The horror!

Finally, OP got a job he wanted. So he is bitching for no reason other to complain about his personal inconvenience.

I'm not defending OP. I'm reminding the T14 posters that those in glass houses shouldn't throw "lol HYS complaint" stones.

[gregfootball2001]

I felt like a colossal douche for doing so, but I actually made an attempt to explain to the partner why they would have been better off not coming to Yale at all

This is the best line in the thread. My god you're insufferable.

I don't think this is the OP. The anon quoted here implies he/she did FIP in some prior year, whereas OP did it this year.

Also, I'm glad the anon quoted above didn't succeed. I'm a YLS student sitting on an offer from Milbank and seriously considering it. If you're interested in project finance, they're a good choice -- they might quite reasonably be your top choice if you're interested in certain geographic regions or specific kinds of project finance.

That said, they haven't got a YLS student for at least the last three years, and I imagine anon's point is that, if they're only going to be attractive to a small group of YLS students, they can't afford to be too picky.

Maybe firms are 'picky' because they'd rather hire someone who did well in comparison to their classmates, rather than someone who just did well in undergrad. Even if they don't end up getting yalies, it's not an unreasonable desire.

[smaug_]

y'all are just jealous.

Damn right I am.

[Liam]

Protip: If you want firms from outside DC and NYC to think you're serious about them, don't go to a school widely regarded as the epitome of the East Coast bubble.

[Elston Gunn]

(Yale 2L)

1. Yale CDO is indeed awful, and relies entirely on the school's cache without adding any value whatsoever, and OP's complaints are accurate criticisms of the office. Their bidding advice, for instance, is bid in the order of how much you want the firms.

EDIT: Should clarify that I think OP's criticisms are accurate insofar as they actively discourage you from mass-mailing "because you'll be fine," not because they can't magically convince K&E to come to FIP.

2. BUT, in my experience, Yale students treat FIP very much the same way as CDO does. They think I'm a fucking Yalie, I don't have to lower myself to mass mailing/ninja-bidding/only interviewing in cities where I have plausible ties/bidding New York/actually researching the OCI process beforehand. It's pretty dumb.

And, despite CDO and many students basically blowing it off, essentially everyone gets an offer. So, yeah, OP's rant is embarrassing.

[Anonymous User]

Is this thread only about YLS or can other schools pitch in? I will say that I am at one of CCN and have many of the same complaints as OP of not enough firms in various regions coming to OCI/EIP/EIW. Mass mailing doesn't work out for most people and it's frustrating when you're pigeonholed into a certain place because of what firms come to your schools. It's not completely career services fault, the blame is to be shared with firms who assume that because they haven't gotten a student from the school in a few years then it's not worth their time to come even though every class is different and wants different things.

Firms are going to be grade selective at every school, including YLS and although they only have 4 graded 1L classes, if they get all Ps it can be difficult. At CCN it's trickier because all of these schools have grades and more people strike out and it's easier to differentiate students based on grades. Classmates can easily screw each other over.

When you are (paying/spending) money to go to a top law school HYSCCN (and I guess the rest of T14 or any law school), you want your career services office to work on your behalf and do what they can for you and in most instances career services doesn't do enough and students are left to battle the waters on their own.

[Anonymous User]

(Yale 2L)

1. Yale CDO is indeed awful, and relies entirely on the school's cache without adding any value whatsoever, and OP's complaints are accurate criticisms of the office. Their bidding advice, for instance, is bid in the order of how much you want the firms.

EDIT: Should clarify that I think OP's criticisms are accurate insofar as they actively discourage you from mass-mailing "because you'll be fine," not because they can't magically convince K&E to come to FIP.

2. BUT, in my experience, Yale students treat FIP very much the same way as CDO does. They think I'm a fucking Yalie, I don't have to lower myself to mass mailing/ninja-bidding/only interviewing in cities where I have plausible ties/bidding New York/actually researching the OCI process beforehand. It's pretty dumb.

And, despite CDO and many students basically blowing it off, essentially everyone gets an offer. So, yeah, OP's rant is embarrassing.

This is all true, but if you get an offer from a place you don't really want, is it the same as a student who is juggling multiple V10 offers?

[Danger Zone]

This is all true, but if you get an offer from a place you don't really want, is it the same as a student who is juggling multiple V10 offers?

My heart pumps piss for you, anon.

[Elston Gunn]

(Yale 2L)

1. Yale CDO is indeed awful, and relies entirely on the school's cache without adding any value whatsoever, and OP's complaints are accurate criticisms of the office. Their bidding advice, for instance, is bid in the order of how much you want the firms.

EDIT: Should clarify that I think OP's criticisms are accurate insofar as they actively discourage you from mass-mailing "because you'll be fine," not because they can't magically convince K&E to come to FIP.

2. BUT, in my experience, Yale students treat FIP very much the same way as CDO does. They think I'm a fucking Yalie, I don't have to lower myself to mass mailing/ninja-bidding/only interviewing in cities where I have plausible ties/bidding New York/actually researching the OCI process beforehand. It's pretty dumb.

And, despite CDO and many students basically blowing it off, essentially everyone gets an offer. So, yeah, OP's rant is embarrassing.

This is all true, but if you get an offer from a place you don't really want, is it the same as a student who is juggling multiple V10 offers?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. If you mean, does everyone end up in the same position, of course not. But there's no divine right that someone from Yale has to one of their top choice firms, especially if they don't do the necessary research or legwork. And, to truly illustrate how dumb it is to whine about Yale FIP, YLSers who are unhappy with their firm choices usually are (or could have been if they had bid NY) juggling multiple V10 offers.

[Skump]

Now OCI is over, I think it's time for kvetching about how our law schools mess things up. trolling with some first world problems.

I'll start with Yale's FIP:
- FAR too few firms, even in major markets. Want to work at Akin Gump? Don't go to Yale.
- No resume drops for firms that aren't interviewing (aside from for other offices of firms with hospitality suites)
- Terrible coverage of markets other than NY and DC. Of the top 50 firms by headcount in LA, just 9 showed up (and 15 of the top 100). Want to work at Skadden, MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, or Sidley in LA? Go to Harvard. NorCal is a little better, but Texas, Philly, and the Midwest (aside from Chicago) are also awful. The Southeast is almost non-existent. IIRC, precisely two firms were interviewing for the entire state of Florida, and one was a tiny Boies office. CDO, if you're reading this, please at least arrange resume drops for markets that have poor FIP coverage. There's also almost no advice about mass mailing for people whose target cities have almost no firms at FIP.

While I'm fortunate to have avoided striking out,everything was made far more stressful by FIP's poor coverage, which meant that I was playing around with a dangerously low number of CBs. Would things have been easier if I'd interviewed with NY firms? Yes. But I don't want to be in New York. Do most people ultimately get a SA offer somewhere? Yes, but for too many people, the only option is to start your career in NY and only move to where you really want to be later. We're currently in a situation where the law of small numbers means that even relatively good candidates (and my poor interviewing skills put me outside this group) risk having to go to a second-choice city because they have so few chances in their target markets.

[fxb]

Protip: If you want firms from outside DC and NYC to think you're serious about them, don't go to a school widely regarded as the epitome of the East Coast bubble.

This is the credited response.

Also, understand that the firms have to pay -- like, thousands of dollars to the school -- for the privilege of doing OCI. Plus have an attorney spend all day doing it, that person's travel, expenses, etc., all only to become a notch on your belt that makes you feel better ("thank god I have 12 CBs, I'd be so worried if I only had 8"). At the small schools, particularly Yale, it's just not worth their time to try to compete when their experience is that you'll go somewhere slightly more prestigious that traditionally has more of a connection with Yale.

If Akin Gump or wherever is your first choice for a really good reason, write them and say why. But if you just want yet another more-or-less-prestigious DC firm that you're not really interested in to pad your OCI schedule, Akin is happy to let Wilmer take you.

TL;DR -- the perceived scarcity of firms at small schools' OCI is not CDO's fault. CDO would love to have the firms come, the firms just don't want to.

[Person1111]

This thread is TLDR, but I just wanted to pop in to say that the OP offers at least two reasons that H>Y. Go Crimson!

[NYstate]

This thread is TLDR, but I just wanted to pop in to say that the OP offers at least two reasons that H>Y. Go Crimson!

I didn't get that from this thread at all. My take away was that OP got several callbacks in a small market after sending some emails and got an offer without much effort after completely blowing off NYC as an option.

Not all 555 students at Harvard are going to pull this off.

[Danger Zone]

This thread is TLDR, but I just wanted to pop in to say that the OP offers at least two reasons that H>Y. Go Crimson!

I didn't get that from this thread at all. My take away was that OP got several callbacks in a small market after sending some emails and got an offer without much effort after completely blowing off NYC as an option.

Not all 555 students at Harvard are going to pull this off.

Not all 555 students at Harvard are going to be whiny little bitches about it, either.

[Old Gregg]

This thread is TLDR, but I just wanted to pop in to say that the OP offers at least two reasons that H>Y. Go Crimson!

I didn't get that from this thread at all. My take away was that OP got several callbacks in a small market after sending some emails and got an offer without much effort after completely blowing off NYC as an option.

Not all 555 students at Harvard are going to pull this off.

Not all 555 students at Harvard are going to be whiny little bitches about it, either.

You should read some other forum threads. TLS is definitely not lacking in dumbshit and/or entitled HLS alums.