least selective NYC firms

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swtlilsoni
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least selective NYC firms

Postby swtlilsoni » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:50 pm

I'm really having a hard time figuring out the least selective NY firms.

Based on my research, here are the ones who seem to be least selective (ignore the percentages):

Could someone please tell me which, out of those, are least/most selective (since I have to narrow this down more)
Also, people claim its best to go for firms with large class sizes, but isn't that relative to selectivity? For example, a v10 with a class size of 30 would still be more selective than a v100 with a class size of 5 right?? So I shouldn't just blindly put the large class size firms as my priorities?

Akerman Senterfitt (New York, NY)
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP (New York, NY) 20%
Alston & Bird LLP (New York, NY)
Baker Botts L.L.P. (New York, NY)29%
Baker Hostetler LLP (New York, NY)31%
Bickel & Brewer (New York, NY)
Bingham McCutchen LLP (New York, NY)16%
Brown Rudnick LLP (New York, NY)
Bryan Cave, LLP (New York, NY)
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP (New York, NY)44%
Cahill Gordon & Reindel (New York, NY)27%
Chadbourne & Parke, LLP (New York, NY)66%
Clifford Chance (New York, NY)33%
Cooley LLP (New York, NY)
Dechert LLP (New York, NY)32%
Edwards Wildman Palmer LLP (New York, NY)?
Foley & Lardner LLP (New York, NY)
Fox Rothschild (New York, NY)14%
Gunderson Dettmer LLP (New York, NY)
Haynes and Boone, LLP (New York, NY)
Hogan Lovells (New York, NY)32%
Holland & Knight LLP (New York, NY)
Hunton & Williams (New York, NY)
Jones Day (New York, NY)
K&L Gates (New York, NY)20
Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman LLP (New York, NY)26%
Kelley Drye & Warren LLP (New York, NY)14%
King & Spalding, LLP (New York, NY)50%
Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel LLP (New York, NY)19%
Linklaters LLP (New York, NY)50%
McDermott Will & Emery (New York, NY)33%
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP (New York, NY)
Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe LLP (New York, NY)16%
Paul Hastings LLP (New York, NY)
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP (New York, NY)23%
Proskauer Rose LLP (New York, NY)28%
Pryor Cashman LLP (New York, NY)21%
Reed Smith LLP (New York, NY)18%
Ropes & Gray LLP (New York, NY)
Schiff Hardin LLP (New York, NY)
Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP (New York, NY)45%
Seward & Kissel LLP (New York, NY)22%
Sheppard Mullin Richter & Hampton LLP (New York, NY)35
Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP (New York, NY)38
Venable LLP (New York, NY)
Vinson & Elkins LLP (New York, NY)
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati (New York, NY)

RodneyRuxin
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby RodneyRuxin » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:04 pm

I'm not sure what the percentages mean or what you're hoping people do with this list. But if you have bad grades you shouldn't blindly put a selective firm with a big class on your bidlist.

You probably to prioritize the least-selective firms with the biggest class sizes first, followed by the least-selective firms with smaller class sizes, followed by the selective with biggest class sizes (I have no experience here, I'm just trying to use common sense...). Note that this prioritization doesn't necessarily translate into a bidlist. Number of interview slots and general interest in the firm also factor in.

ETA: There's two types of selectivity here (class size and grades). It's nearly impossible to combine them on paper. Sure, bigger class sizes tend to increase your chances of getting an offer (more spots to fill), but if you don't have the grades it likely doesn't matter. Conversely, bidding a firm you meet the cutoffs for but has one spot translates to a low chance of success, but bidding a firm you meet cutoffs for that has 30 spots translates to a higher chance of success.

FWIW I think what I'm telling you is common sense and you can figure it out on your own, but I had a feeling no one was going to reply.
Last edited by RodneyRuxin on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:45 pm

I'm not sure how much ranking there can be among the group of not-that-selective NYC firms, but some of the firms you have listed wouldn't belong in that category anyway, to my knowledge - e.g., Cadwalader, Cahill, Jones Day. Also not so sure about Bickel and Kasowitz.

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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:11 pm

Bickel & Brewer is a very selective litigation boutique which pays above-market salaries. It is probably one of the more selective firms out there, and you should remove it from your list.

Some other firms which are selective (read: median offer GPA is top third or above) at Columbia/NYU: on that list: Jones Day, Ropes & Gray.

Some other firms which, in my personal and likely biased opinion, probably don't dip much below median at Columbia/NYU: Cadwalader, Cahill, Clifford Chance, Linklaters, Proskauer

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swtlilsoni
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby swtlilsoni » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:29 pm

thanks for the advice. it seems like all the firms with the large class sizes are 'selective' and i have to eliminate them. then how is it even possible to choose firms that are 'less selective with large class sizes'. does that even exist??

Anonymous User
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:41 pm

OP, how low is your GPA? Below median?

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swtlilsoni
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby swtlilsoni » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, how low is your GPA? Below median?
Last edited by swtlilsoni on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:51 pm

Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.

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swtlilsoni
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby swtlilsoni » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.


Is that just for NY or firmwide? Because they didn't have info about Schulte NY class size on NALP

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JamMasterJ
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:03 pm

swtlilsoni wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.


Is that just for NY or firmwide? Because they didn't have info about Schulte NY class size on NALP

From their site, it looks like all are in NY.

Anonymous User
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:05 pm

Also the magic circle firms on your list may be a little less selective about grades but they counter that with their focus on other criteria (e.g. international background). So selectivity is not all about grades and class size.

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swtlilsoni
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby swtlilsoni » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:08 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
swtlilsoni wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.


Is that just for NY or firmwide? Because they didn't have info about Schulte NY class size on NALP

From their site, it looks like all are in NY.


thanks! could you post a link or something to where on the website you found that? i searched and couldn't see it anywhere.
thanks again

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JamMasterJ
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:20 pm

swtlilsoni wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
swtlilsoni wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.


Is that just for NY or firmwide? Because they didn't have info about Schulte NY class size on NALP

From their site, it looks like all are in NY.


thanks! could you post a link or something to where on the website you found that? i searched and couldn't see it anywhere.
thanks again

just looking at the Summer Associate section of their site - it looked like they don't have them in DC

geicoforyourmoney
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby geicoforyourmoney » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.


I would not call Schulte a "least selective" firm.
Last edited by geicoforyourmoney on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

geicoforyourmoney
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby geicoforyourmoney » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also the magic circle firms on your list may be a little less selective about grades but they counter that with their focus on other criteria (e.g. international background). So selectivity is not all about grades and class size.


Linklaters has taken some very high GPAs from my t14, much higher than you would think (eg 3.5-3.6) in the past few years.

Edited because Freshfields is not on the OP's list.
Last edited by geicoforyourmoney on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BuckinghamB
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby BuckinghamB » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:48 pm

geicoforyourmoney wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Schulte will go below median, and they have class sizes above 30.


I would not call Schulte a "least selective" firm.


Probably depends on the school. At mine the median offer GPA from them is well below median.

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Borg
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Borg » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:50 pm

I see a few in this list that I wouldn't consider "not selective" due to either grade selectivity or fit selectivity. Some have been mentioned already, but these are the ones I've spotted:

Akin Gump - Somewhat grade conscious, not sure what cutoffs are though.

Gunderson, Cooley, Wilson Sonsini - Tech oriented firms, prefer people who have some business acumen/real interest in startups or IP. Gunderson in particular takes a tiny class in New York.

Vinson & Elkins - Very small summer class in New York so not indifferent to grades, reputation for being very fit oriented and having a specific "type" that they look for.

Proskauer - Good sized class, but not indifferent to grades either and also seem to have a "type" similar to V&E.
Last edited by Borg on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 pm

Kaye scholer is a firm that comes to mind that's not on your list. Dechert, chadbourne, kramer levin, stroock, and schulte are the firms on your list that also don't care as much about grades. Those are places where it comes down to how well you interview.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: least selective NYC firms

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:14 am

It's not a bad list, outside of the aforementioned Bickel, Jones Day, Ropes.

The fact of the matter is that, you're right, the less selective firms hire fewer people. It means you'll have to take more of a shotgun approach. Focus on interviewing well and hope for the best.

The hiring process does not scale evenly according to GPA. It's not like having worse grades means you'll have the same experience as someone with higher grades, just at less selective firms. The entire process gets harder. People with lower GPAs tend to catch on with one or two V100 firms with smaller class sizes, seemingly at random, which makes everything a lot more arbitrary and stressful than for someone with better grades, who might end up not only getting offers at more selective firms, but also choosing between a number of those offers. When you're on the bottom end, it's a lot easier to be qualified but just miss the cut, since the standards are lower at these firms but they have fewer jobs for a bigger applicant pool.

Not trying to be a downer, just a heads up that this is what you're in for. So control what you can: bidding and interviewing. And mass mail.




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