HLS EIP 2013 Forum

[Wonk]

Ok before the scattered "I have x Hs and y Ps" threads get too out of control, I figure we can start posting here instead.

Here's last year's thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=187031

Bidding July 22 - July 29
View Your Interview Schedule August 1
Add Period August 2 - August 4
EIP Interviews Begin August 12

Let's get it, folks.

[Anonymous User]

Nice.

6H 4P. NY Corp work. K-JD. In demand language skill. Not URM. Prestigious undergrad.

Advice?

-Lollipop

(btw, like last year, I would suggest all the anons adopt a separate identity so we can be tracked throughout the pages for future generations). I will be Lollipop. Please sign your names!

[Anonymous User]

Median (DS and an H 1st semester, an H this semester), one year WE, non-URM, thinking lit, only meh at interviewing (but I've been working hard at it, and should be pretty competent when the time comes), prestigious undergrad.

NY is my primary market; I find DC really appealing but I know it's a tough nut to crack with significantly better credentials than what I've got; I'd rather work there than Boston though (my other option for secondary market). Should I go for DC at all? And what should my NY bidlist look like?

Thanks!

[Wonk]

3 Hs, 6 Ps, interested in Boston exclusively. Is that crazy? I have very strong Boston ties and good work experience, for whatever those matter.

[PMan99]

None of you guys are in trouble. If your interviewing skills are abysmal then that's one thing but put effort into all of the interviews and you should get the market you want. Use up all of your interviews (don't be cocky) and, for the guy focused on Boston, throw some bids at a few large-class NY firms, but you should be fine.

[Stinson]

3 Hs, 6 Ps, interested in Boston exclusively. Is that crazy? I have very strong Boston ties and good work experience, for whatever those matter.

You could probably get Boston comfortably with less, given the ties and WE. As PMan said might want to hedge with a big NY or so just in case - after all in Boston as Ropes goes so go most of Boston's SA spots, and you never know what they might do. But you should have at least one of the big six - Ropes, Wilmer, Goodwin, Choate, foley hoag, and Bingham. Make sure you make very clear in the interviews that you are targeting Boston almost exclusively and make the ties plain. The Boston firms love Harvard and are not terribly picky about credentials but view HLS students as a flight risk and tire of being turned down. There were a number of students exclusively targeting Boston my year and all succeeded so far as I know.

[Person1111]

A few pieces of advice for those who are going to do EIP this fall:

(1) Relax. You will get a job if you exercise some common sense. People do strike out, but it's rarely because of grades alone, and it's never because your bidlist was in the wrong order.

(2) If you are targeting NYC, be ambitious. Most firms will dip below median for the right HLS student, including Cravath, DPW, etc. WLRK and S&C do not require 7+ H's. In addition, big class sizes mean that the higher-ranked firms will often dip deeper into the class than lower-ranked firms and should be a cornerstone of most people's NYC bidlists. Don't ding yourself from the V5 or V10 just because you are a median-ish candidate; these firms will be either targets or very slight reaches for you. If you have 5-7 H's, you can probably just bid the V30, swap out three or four firms, and call it a bid list.

(3) If you are targeting SF or DC, be cautious. These are smaller and very competitive markets who have their pick of top candidates. For DC, make sure you bid on some firms with larger class sizes and less sexy firms (think Crowell & Moring, Venable, Steptoe, Wiley Rein, etc.) if you are not a super-strong candidate. Don't waste bids on Williams & Connolly and similar firms if you are coming from median or slightly above median. For SF, make sure that you have a wide berth of firms and try to split your bid list with LA or SV if you are concerned about having enough firms to create a balanced and safe bid list.

(4) LA, Chicago, Boston: These three are kind of weird markets, but the long and short of it is that they are somewhat more competitive than NYC and care about ties. If you have a plausible reason to bid on one of these cities, and know that you can communicate that reason in interviews, then you should be able to fill up a bid list.

(5) Texas, ATL, and other secondary markets: I don't know a lot about them but what I've heard is that they care less about grades and more about regional ties. I probably would not bid them to the exclusion of a larger market, although you might be able to fill up a bid list exclusively with Texas firms.

(6) Don't waste bids. Don't bid on WLRK if you have 2 H's. Don't bid on Roberts and Holland because you didn't realize they exclusively do tax work. Don't bid on Mitchell Silverberg because you don't realize they exclusively do entertainment work (actually did this). These are all rookie mistakes that you can avoid if you do your homework.

(7) Your grades just don't matter that much unless they're perceptibly below average (0-1 H) or perceptibly above average (7+, maybe even 8+). Anywhere in between, it's mostly going to come down to interviewing skills, how well you can communicate interest in individual firms and click with interviewers, how well you can spin your 1L summer and resume, etc. I know that this is hard to believe, but the opacity of the HLS grading system and the strength of the HLS brand make it such that firms will dip very deep into the class. It also makes it such that being on the top end of the undifferentiated middle is not going to help you as much as it might at some other schools. I have not heard of any firms that just call back the people with the most H's, but I have definitely heard of some that ding people who have good or even great grades and expect to get a job on the basis of their transcript alone.

(8) If you have 0-1 H, one or more LPs, etc., then it's not a good time to take risks. You will very likely still get a job, but I'd probably mass mail, focus your list on NYC, avoid any firm reputed to be "grade selective", and focus on less selective firms with larger class sizes. OCS is pretty good about helping people in this boat by all accounts, so definitely try to work with them. You still shouldn't freak out about getting a job - you just might have to work a tiny bit harder.

(9) EIP is as much about deciding where you want to work as about selling yourself to firms. In 2011, the average student got 6 callbacks and 2.75 offers. Many got more. You will very likely have to make some choices, and you will do yourself a disservice if you reflexively pick the "more prestigious" or "higher-ranked" firm. Listen closely to what your interviewers say about their firm, read between the lines, and make the decision that is right for you and that will help you do what you want to do with your HLS degree.

(10) Relax. Bid lists are not due for at least 6 weeks, so take a deep breath and just enjoy the fact that you are finally done with 1L.

[Lubberlubber]

A few pieces of advice for those who are going to do EIP this fall:

(1) Relax. You will get a job if you exercise some common sense. People do strike out, but it's rarely because of grades alone, and it's never because your bidlist was in the wrong order.

(2) If you are targeting NYC, be ambitious. Most firms will dip below median for the right HLS student, including Cravath, DPW, etc. WLRK and S&C do not require 7+ H's. In addition, big class sizes mean that the higher-ranked firms will often dip deeper into the class than lower-ranked firms and should be a cornerstone of most people's NYC bidlists. Don't ding yourself from the V5 or V10 just because you are a median-ish candidate; these firms will be either targets or very slight reaches for you. If you have 5-7 H's, you can probably just bid the V30, swap out three or four firms, and call it a bid list.

(3) If you are targeting SF or DC, be cautious. These are smaller and very competitive markets who have their pick of top candidates. For DC, make sure you bid on some firms with larger class sizes and less sexy firms (think Crowell & Moring, Venable, Steptoe, Wiley Rein, etc.) if you are not a super-strong candidate. Don't waste bids on Williams & Connolly and similar firms if you are coming from median or slightly above median. For SF, make sure that you have a wide berth of firms and try to split your bid list with LA or SV if you are concerned about having enough firms to create a balanced and safe bid list.

(4) LA, Chicago, Boston: These three are kind of weird markets, but the long and short of it is that they are somewhat more competitive than NYC and care about ties. If you have a plausible reason to bid on one of these cities, and know that you can communicate that reason in interviews, then you should be able to fill up a bid list.

(5) Texas, ATL, and other secondary markets: I don't know a lot about them but what I've heard is that they care less about grades and more about regional ties. I probably would not bid them to the exclusion of a larger market, although you might be able to fill up a bid list exclusively with Texas firms.

(6) Don't waste bids. Don't bid on WLRK if you have 2 H's. Don't bid on Roberts and Holland because you didn't realize they exclusively do tax work. Don't bid on Mitchell Silverberg because you don't realize they exclusively do entertainment work (actually did this). These are all rookie mistakes that you can avoid if you do your homework.

(7) Your grades just don't matter that much unless they're perceptibly below average (0-1 H) or perceptibly above average (7+, maybe even 8+). Anywhere in between, it's mostly going to come down to interviewing skills, how well you can communicate interest in individual firms and click with interviewers, how well you can spin your 1L summer and resume, etc. I know that this is hard to believe, but the opacity of the HLS grading system and the strength of the HLS brand make it such that firms will dip very deep into the class. It also makes it such that being on the top end of the undifferentiated middle is not going to help you as much as it might at some other schools. I have not heard of any firms that just call back the people with the most H's, but I have definitely heard of some that ding people who have good or even great grades and expect to get a job on the basis of their transcript alone.

(8) If you have 0-1 H, one or more LPs, etc., then it's not a good time to take risks. You will very likely still get a job, but I'd probably mass mail, focus your list on NYC, avoid any firm reputed to be "grade selective", and focus on less selective firms with larger class sizes. OCS is pretty good about helping people in this boat by all accounts, so definitely try to work with them. You still shouldn't freak out about getting a job - you just might have to work a tiny bit harder.

(9) EIP is as much about deciding where you want to work as about selling yourself to firms. In 2011, the average student got 6 callbacks and 2.75 offers. Many got more. You will very likely have to make some choices, and you will do yourself a disservice if you reflexively pick the "more prestigious" or "higher-ranked" firm. Listen closely to what your interviewers say about their firm, read between the lines, and make the decision that is right for you and that will help you do what you want to do with your HLS degree.

(10) Relax. Bid lists are not due for at least 6 weeks, so take a deep breath and just enjoy the fact that you are finally done with 1L.

Awesome advice. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Tentative bidlist (6H 4P, K-JD, Prestigious UG, Language skills, Non-URM, LA ties). Prefer Corp. work in NY, but a good firm in LA would be great too.

List goes: Firm, City, EIP Slots (from CSM)

1. Cravath NY 104
2. Skadden NY 120
3. SullCrom NY 102
4. Davis Polk NY 220
5. Weil NY 100
6. Simpson Thatcher NY 200
7. Cleary NY 200
8. Kirkland NY 60
9. Gibson NY/LA 120 (no multiple interviews)
10. Latham NY/LA 76 (no multiple interviews)
11. Paul, Weiss NY 200
12. Sidley NY 60
13. Jones Day NY 38
14. Shearman NY 80
15. Linklaters NY 40
16. clifford chance NY 40
17. Freshfields NY 80
18. Skadden LA 40
19. Debevoise NY 140
20. Sidley LA 35
21. White & Case NY 80
22. WilmerHale NY 60
23. Arnold & Porter LA 20
24. O'Melveny & Myers LA 40
25. Ropes NY 280
26. Paul Hastings NY/LA 40 (no multiple interviews)
27. Cadwalader NY 100
28. Milbank NY 120
29. Milbank LA 20
30. clifford chance London 20
31. Allen & Overy London 20
32. Skadden HK 20
33. Latham HK 19

I know people say not to do more than 2 markets, and I'm mainly focused on NY/LA. But I couldn't think of any other firms that really interest me in either of those, so the HK/London offices are kind of placeholders that will be the first to be cut if I think of any replacements, or if any of your guys could suggest other NY/LA firms.

Questions:

Is it always necessary to use up all 35 bids? Do 3Ls out there recommend this?

The list is currently ranked in order in INTEREST. That is, I would accept offers from these firms in this order. However, when I sorted the firms on an excel ranking them by BIDS/SLOTS from last year, to see how competitive they usually were, some of the firms with few slots have something like a 300% ratio. Should I rank them in that order? I'm afraid I won't get the interview if I put the in-demand firms too low, and it seems like giant firms like DPW with 200 slots accommodates everyone who bids. Strategies on this?

-Lollipop

[GertrudePerkins]

Questions:

Is it always necessary to use up all 35 bids? Do 3Ls out there recommend this?

-Lollipop

It's not crazy to use all 35 bids -- as opposed to actually undertaking 35 screeners -- but I think it's probably unnecessary. You'll get most if not all of your bids, and I do think it's crazy to do 35 screeners, especially with 6 Hs, so there's probably not much point in bidding more than your top 25. Of course, there's not much downside to bidding all 35, so do it if it makes you feel more at ease. The truly crucial thing is to pare down your list of screeners to a reasonable amount after you see your bid results. Note: after a certain point, closer to EIP, OCS will not allow you to cancel screeners! So don't let that deadline slip by without paring your list down.

[Anonymous User]

Checking in. 5 DS, 3 H, 2 P. Focused on Texas, will probably bid some NY as well (have literally never been to DC so won't be bidding there). K-JD, non-URM.

Does anyone know what the strategy from this position is?

-- Ron Burgundy

[Anonymous User]

Checking in. 5 DS, 3 H, 2 P. Focused on Texas, will probably bid some NY as well (have literally never been to DC so won't be bidding there). K-JD, non-URM.

Does anyone know what the strategy from this position is?

-- Ron Burgundy

holy balls of christ. people like you single-handedly dispel the myth that HLS grading is arbitrary

[Anonymous User]

Checking in. 5 DS, 3 H, 2 P. Focused on Texas, will probably bid some NY as well (have literally never been to DC so won't be bidding there). K-JD, non-URM.

Does anyone know what the strategy from this position is?

-- Ron Burgundy

holy balls of christ. people like you single-handedly dispel the myth that HLS grading is arbitrary

Yeah this is not even humblebragging. This is like blatant bragging. But good job. Srsly. Also, I'm pretty sure I know who you are.

[Anonymous User]

Checking in. 5 DS, 3 H, 2 P. Focused on Texas, will probably bid some NY as well (have literally never been to DC so won't be bidding there). K-JD, non-URM.

Does anyone know what the strategy from this position is?

-- Ron Burgundy

holy balls of christ. people like you single-handedly dispel the myth that HLS grading is arbitrary

Yeah this is not even humblebragging. This is like blatant bragging. But good job. Srsly. Also, I'm pretty sure I know who you are.

Didn't mean to be braggin'

Just trying to get some information on account of I pretty much have no idea what I'm doing bidding-wise and I haven't found OCS to be terribly helpful in the past.

Also hey possible acquaintance/friend(?). How you doin'?

-- Ron Burgundy

[Anonymous User]

Median (DS and an H 1st semester, an H this semester), one year WE, non-URM, thinking lit, only meh at interviewing (but I've been working hard at it, and should be pretty competent when the time comes), prestigious undergrad.

NY is my primary market; I find DC really appealing but I know it's a tough nut to crack with significantly better credentials than what I've got; I'd rather work there than Boston though (my other option for secondary market). Should I go for DC at all? And what should my NY bidlist look like?

Thanks!

I'm pretty much like you, but a bit worse off. DS and H 1st semester, H 2nd semester, non-URM, crappy interviewer, K-JD, prestigious but non-Ivy undergrad. NYC is my dream market; what should I be considering reach and what's safe (or safe-ish) there?

--Johnny Cage

[PMan99]

Just trying to get some information on account of I pretty much have no idea what I'm doing bidding-wise and I haven't found OCS to be terribly helpful in the past.

-- Ron Burgundy

Despite the fact that the above statement is untrue, I'll answer.

You can bid wherever you want on whatever firms you want and you'll be fine. The top top firms won't be a lock, because they aren't locks for anyone, but you'll have as good a shot at W&C/WLRK/KVN/Susman/MTO as anyone else with high grades would.

[PMan99]

Median (DS and an H 1st semester, an H this semester), one year WE, non-URM, thinking lit, only meh at interviewing (but I've been working hard at it, and should be pretty competent when the time comes), prestigious undergrad.

NY is my primary market; I find DC really appealing but I know it's a tough nut to crack with significantly better credentials than what I've got; I'd rather work there than Boston though (my other option for secondary market). Should I go for DC at all? And what should my NY bidlist look like?

Thanks!

I'm pretty much like you, but a bit worse off. DS and H 1st semester, H 2nd semester, non-URM, crappy interviewer, K-JD, prestigious but non-Ivy undergrad. NYC is my dream market; what should I be considering reach and what's safe (or safe-ish) there?

--Johnny Cage

From the cw the only real reaches would be Wachtell and S&C. Cravath and the rest have been known to go to median or, in some cases, lower. I can't tell you what's safe because I'm not sure any particular firm is really "safe" at median, but the usual advice would apply: firms with large summer classes and lots of interview slots. Don't blow any of them off and work on improving your interview skills from bad to mediocre and you'll get 160k in NY. The mega firms that are taking 100+ people to callbacks (DPW, Cleary, Paul Weiss, etc.) are all good to aim for.

[Anonymous User]

Looking for some advice on the Boston market: I may be trying to stay in the area, but I have no specific ties to it. How important will the lack of ties be? I'm probably going to hedge a little bit with some DC firms, but I'm not sure the degree to which I'll need to do so.

1 DS, 7 H, 2 P; work experience.

--Mal Reynolds

[Anonymous User]

Also hey possible acquaintance/friend(?). How you doin'?

-- Ron Burgundy

That just confirmed my suspicions

- Lollipop

[Anonymous User]

Looking for some advice on the Boston market: I may be trying to stay in the area, but I have no specific ties to it. How important will the lack of ties be? I'm probably going to hedge a little bit with some DC firms, but I'm not sure the degree to which I'll need to do so.

1 DS, 7 H, 2 P; work experience.

--Mal Reynolds

You should probably wear a tie.

But seriously, Boston cares a lot about ties from what I understand. But if you want to stay in the area, presumably you have a reason. If you can craft a compelling narrative around it, you might be able to assuage their fears about your ties.
-Johnny Cage

[Anonymous User]

Looking for some advice on the Boston market: I may be trying to stay in the area, but I have no specific ties to it. How important will the lack of ties be? I'm probably going to hedge a little bit with some DC firms, but I'm not sure the degree to which I'll need to do so.

1 DS, 7 H, 2 P; work experience.

--Mal Reynolds

You should probably wear a tie.

But seriously, Boston cares a lot about ties from what I understand. But if you want to stay in the area, presumably you have a reason. If you can craft a compelling narrative around it, you might be able to assuage their fears about your ties.
-Johnny Cage

I do, although it's more personal than professional. Somehow, I'm not sure how well that'll fly. Hence the thought about hedging.

--Mal Reynolds

[Anonymous User]

Also hey possible acquaintance/friend(?). How you doin'?

-- Ron Burgundy

That just confirmed my suspicions

- Lollipop

Man, now I'm all curious. Also apparently I need to improve my online identity-cloaking capacity. Or I guess your confidence could be misplaced.

-- Ron Burgundy

[Anonymous User]

Looking for some advice on the Boston market: I may be trying to stay in the area, but I have no specific ties to it. How important will the lack of ties be? I'm probably going to hedge a little bit with some DC firms, but I'm not sure the degree to which I'll need to do so.

1 DS, 7 H, 2 P; work experience.

--Mal Reynolds

Would having a SO who will (hopefully) have a job in the area count? Most interested in Boston, San Fran and D.C. but with no real ties to any of those markets. 3 DS, 6 H, 1 P. Legal work experience.

[Stinson]

Looking for some advice on the Boston market: I may be trying to stay in the area, but I have no specific ties to it. How important will the lack of ties be? I'm probably going to hedge a little bit with some DC firms, but I'm not sure the degree to which I'll need to do so.

1 DS, 7 H, 2 P; work experience.

--Mal Reynolds

Boston cares about ties but the bar is lower for HLS students because you have a quasi-tie by being here. Moreover, those grades are probably considerably better than you would need for any Boston firm. In that sense, you need to communicate that you want to work in Boston and you want to work at those firms. Brush up on them and know them, communicate with an HLS alum via email prior to interview for the big ones/the ones you really want. Most firm websites let you filter their attorneys by school, so just look up HLS and pick a young person. It's great to be able to say, "Oh yes, I spoke with so-and-so and he said X, Y, and Z, which is what I'm looking for." Just make sure X, Y, and Z are at least kind of specific, and not throwaway cliche crap like "collegial work environment."

The biggest thing with Boston is that it doesn't want to be second fiddle/safety valve. If you look at OCS's data, they extend a pretty decent number of unrequited offers, both real offers and callbacks. They like Harvard but well know they could fill their classes with the Law Reviews of BC and BU if they so chose. With your grades that will be a concern because they know you will have your pick were you to look elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

Looking for some advice on the Boston market: I may be trying to stay in the area, but I have no specific ties to it. How important will the lack of ties be? I'm probably going to hedge a little bit with some DC firms, but I'm not sure the degree to which I'll need to do so.

1 DS, 7 H, 2 P; work experience.

--Mal Reynolds

I did EIP last summer. No ties to Boston, 3H/7P, no work experience. Got callbacks from every firm in Boston except for Ropes and Latham and received offers from all the callbacks I went on.

...You'll be fine.

Edited to add: When they asked me, "Why Boston?" I just listed things I liked about the city and explained why I didn't want to go home. Everyone asked me "Why Boston?" but no one seemed particularly paranoid about me running back home (they like Boston, too, and think everyone should).