Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:46 pm

This is just a public service announcement because there's a false rumor that I've noticed on here for some time.


YOUR GRADES ALMOST NEVER STOP BEING AN ISSUE. I'm telling people this because there's this big thing on here about "3LOL and I can chill 2L" etc. The reality is that that simply isn't true. Look at lateral hiring postings. They're absurd. Oftentimes they'll say things like "top 25 percent required" "outstanding academic credentials" "NO EXCEPTIONS". "Must have law review or graduating honors". And the scary thing is that this isn't just law firm lateral positions or top law firm positions. I'm talking in-house counsel and federal government as well. It's incredible how bad things have gotten. Quite frankly it seems like state government and legal aid are the only employers that don't list that sort of thing. And some of them probably do too.

Also to a much lesser extent school rank seems to matter as well. But obviously that ship has sailed and, even when the postings do mention school rank requirements, they tend to be relatively lax (top 25 top 30 top 50 etc.).

Just something to be aware of before you relax too much after 1L year.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11720
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby kalvano » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:47 pm

Any particular reason why this was posted anonymously?

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:48 pm

kalvano wrote:Any particular reason why this was posted anonymously?


Honestly that was an accident from habit.

Anyway this is definitely an important message that needs to get out there. I also know that being no-offered from a firm due to grades is a lot more common than conventional TLS wisdom would have you to believe. Particularly in the non-NYC/DC markets.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote: And the scary thing is that this isn't just law firm lateral positions or top law firm positions.


Eh...I think it's going to matter a lot more for junior associate laterals who don't have a ton of experience in anything specific than for other positions. Once you have experience in a specific practice area and can sell yourself based on that, I just don't see grades making a ton of difference.

anon168
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:09 pm

I've been saying this forever.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=191266#p5791314

User avatar
Cade McNown
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Cade McNown » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:13 pm

:shock:

Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:20 pm

I think this varies by school. The vast majority of places dont even have cutoffs for HYS, for instance.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think this varies by school. The vast majority of places dont even have cutoffs for HYS, for instance.


Not trying to be a jackass but this deserves a captain obvious response. Obviously HYS are in a different galaxy than any other schools. I assumed that people knew that this did not pertain to them. Quite frankly, I would go so far as to say that the downturn has almost not impacted them. But that's a topic for another thread. The HYS exception does not apply to 99 percent of law students. And probably doesn't even apply to 90 percent of this board.


anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Once one has accepted a full time offer with a V100 as a rising 3L, what are the chances of it getting revoked? Do grades matter anymore more?


They matter. No need to gun for coif, but don't flunk out either, and there will be no risk of firm rescinding.

But keep something in mind. Your grades follow you forever. Ever hear of the term "exit options" on these boards? Well, if you want to keep those "exit options" open, I suggest you don't tank your 3L classes.

Grades matter, for probably at least 10 years post law school graduation.


Well I'll be damned. That pretty much sums it up.

anon168
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:27 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think this varies by school. The vast majority of places dont even have cutoffs for HYS, for instance.


Not trying to be a jackass but this deserves a captain obvious response. Obviously HYS are in a different galaxy than any other schools. I assumed that people knew that this did not pertain to them. Quite frankly, I would go so far as to say that the downturn has almost not impacted them. But that's a topic for another thread. The HYS exception does not apply to 99 percent of law students. And probably doesn't even apply to 90 percent of this board.


Dude it still matters, even for HYS.

If you end up with all P's and LP's in your 2L and 3L years, it will not look good.

Trust me on this.

I have no horse in this game. Just trying to be helpful.

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11720
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby kalvano » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:27 pm

Yes, grades will matter. For a while. But once you've been out for 5+ years, it matters a lot less. Being published, having Latin honors, those are more important.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:27 pm

anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=191266#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:30 pm

anon168 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think this varies by school. The vast majority of places dont even have cutoffs for HYS, for instance.


Not trying to be a jackass but this deserves a captain obvious response. Obviously HYS are in a different galaxy than any other schools. I assumed that people knew that this did not pertain to them. Quite frankly, I would go so far as to say that the downturn has almost not impacted them. But that's a topic for another thread. The HYS exception does not apply to 99 percent of law students. And probably doesn't even apply to 90 percent of this board.


Dude it still matters, even for HYS.

If you end up with all P's and LP's in your 2L and 3L years, it will not look good.

Trust me on this.

I have no horse in this game. Just trying to be helpful.


Honestly after going through law school I don't doubt you at all. It's just that I think with HYS you can get away with it depending on your market and some other things. Frankly, for NYC, DC, California, Chicago, and Texas I think it may be even worse than what you're implicating. The legal field is incredible. I've never seen anything else like it.


kalvano wrote:Yes, grades will matter. For a while. But once you've been out for 5+ years, it matters a lot less. Being published, having Latin honors, those are more important.


2 things. 1) If by "a while" you mean 10 years then sure. The other problem with this is the chicken and the egg problem. Grades stop mattering after 10 years, but only if you got a job within that 10 years that was marketable--which will almost always require you to have good grades. and 2) You do know having Latin honors requires high grades by graduation right?
Last edited by BruceWayne on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anon168
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:31 pm

Let me just add something.

For those of you looking for firms, or deciding between firms for either a 2L SA gig, or a permanent gig, I'm sure you guys peruse the list of attorneys, right? And their bios, right?

Of course you do.

And somewhere in the bios, you see their education -- college and law school -- right?

Yes, of course you do.

Ever notice, they list the honors those attorneys received or achieved at each respective school? Even the undergrad college institutions?

You know, things like magna cum laude, Dean's list, etc., right?

Of course you do.

Then do you also notice that for their law schools firms will also list things like Coif, LR, etc.?

Of course you do.

And, now pay attention. Do you also notice that they do this even for partners? Partners of many many years, even decades sometimes?

Yes, of course you do.

Grades matter folks. Of course they do.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I'm just trying to help out people who are going to through one of the most stressful times in their careers, if not lives.
Last edited by anon168 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anon168
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:33 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
anon168 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think this varies by school. The vast majority of places dont even have cutoffs for HYS, for instance.


Not trying to be a jackass but this deserves a captain obvious response. Obviously HYS are in a different galaxy than any other schools. I assumed that people knew that this did not pertain to them. Quite frankly, I would go so far as to say that the downturn has almost not impacted them. But that's a topic for another thread. The HYS exception does not apply to 99 percent of law students. And probably doesn't even apply to 90 percent of this board.


Dude it still matters, even for HYS.

If you end up with all P's and LP's in your 2L and 3L years, it will not look good.

Trust me on this.

I have no horse in this game. Just trying to be helpful.


Honestly after going through law school I don't doubt you at all. It's just that I think with HYS you can get away with it depending on your market and some other things. Frankly, for NYC, DC, California, Chicago, and Texas I think it may be even worse than what you're implicating. The legal field is incredible. I've never seen anything else like it.


Right.

Like with everything else between law schools of varying pedigrees (e.g. TTT v. HYS), their impacts will vary. But no matter the size of the impact, there is always going to be an impact.

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11720
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby kalvano » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:34 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
kalvano wrote:Yes, grades will matter. For a while. But once you've been out for 5+ years, it matters a lot less. Being published, having Latin honors, those are more important.


2 things. 1) If by "a while" you mean 10 years then sure. and 2) You do know having Latin honors requires high grades by graduation right?


A while meaning 5 years or so. After that, your experience matters a lot more. 10 years is stretching it way too far.

And honors requirements vary by school.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby 09042014 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:35 pm

Go to a school that doesn't have a curve for a lot of classes. 50% of nu law grads get cum laude at 3.65.

AC Vegas
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:29 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby AC Vegas » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:36 pm

journey almost never stopped believing and look where that got them. certainly not in a legal position.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:37 pm

anon168 wrote:Let me just add something.

For those of you looking for firms, or deciding between firms for either a 2L SA gig, or a permanent gig, I'm sure you guys peruse the list of attorneys, right? And their bios, right?

Of course you do.

And somewhere in the bios, you see their education -- college and law school -- right?

Yes, of course you do.

Ever notice, they list the honors those attorneys received or achieved at each respective school? Even the undergrad college institutions?

You know, things like magna cum laude, Dean's list, etc., right?

Of course you do.

Then do you also notice that for their law schools firms will also list things like Coif, LR, etc.
?

Of course you do.

And, now pay attention. Do you also notice that they do this even for partners? Partners of many many years, even decades sometimes?

Yes, of course you do.

Grades matter folks. Of course they do.



LISTEN TO THIS GUY. Sometimes I wonder about this website. Because honestly, you can see what this guy is talking about just by going to Google. And it holds true to an incredibly wide variety of legal positions and an incredibly large number of firms. To a point where I almost want to ask, "What moron on TLS came up with the grades don't matter after 1L thing?".


kalvano wrote:A while meaning 5 years or so. After that, your experience matters a lot more. 10 years is stretching it way too far.

And honors requirements vary by school


Not at all.


Desert Fox wrote:Go to a school that doesn't have a curve for a lot of classes. 50% of nu law grads get cum laude at 3.65.


NU is damn awesome. They really look out for their students. Much more than most of the non HYS top 14.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby 09042014 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Also, I'm not so sure you can take recruiting ads at their face value. if they are as bad as oci, then they mean nothing.

I doubt lateral positions care that much for grades unless you have really crappy grades. It's not like a bottom dweller v100 is suddenly going to want above median grades for t14 lats.

anon168
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby anon168 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=191266#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?


It matters.

I can speak from personal experience from both sides of the fence -- eg. as a hiring committee person as well as a person looking to lateral into a firm.

Even at a very bare minimum your grades will be a tie-breaker between equally qualified candidates (e.g. both of you have clerked and worked at good law firms for 2-3 years). Why put yourself in that situation?

User avatar
fatduck
Posts: 4186
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby fatduck » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:00 pm

anon168 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=191266#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?


It matters.

I can speak from personal experience from both sides of the fence -- eg. as a hiring committee person as well as a person looking to lateral into a firm.

Even at a very bare minimum your grades will be a tie-breaker between equally qualified candidates (e.g. both of you have clerked and worked at good law firms for 2-3 years). Why put yourself in that situation?

weren't you lateralling into some super elite plaintiff's firm? i mean, i don't think anyone is saying "LOL FUCK CLASS! C'S GET JDS!" most of the "3LOL" threads are people talking about taking super easy uncurved classes where they don't have to give a shit and are guaranteed an A-, and people laughing at strivers taking fed courts and doing law review boards and shit.

User avatar
Kronk
Posts: 27945
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:18 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Kronk » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Also, I'm not so sure you can take recruiting ads at their face value. if they are as bad as oci, then they mean nothing.

I doubt lateral positions care that much for grades unless you have really crappy grades. It's not like a bottom dweller v100 is suddenly going to want above median grades for t14 lats.


This. Firms in Denver are flame, for example. They say that they have a hard cut-off at the top ten percent, which makes sense for most of their applicants, (CU & DU). But apply from a T10 school and you definitely don't need grades like that.

delusional
Posts: 1190
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby delusional » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?

I guess that all the people with below median grades and Art. III clerkships can stop worrying.

User avatar
NinerFan
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby NinerFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:37 pm

I could see grades being a factor, but the idea that a firm that needs a mid-level associate who has experience doing bankruptcy or securities or something, finds a lateral candidate who can do the work, but wouldn't hire them because they have a 3.3 and not a 3.5 seems a little silly. It makes even less sense to say that a lateral partner, who is essentially going to be hired for their book, is going to get dinged because they didn't graduate with honors or go to a T25 school.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273139
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Your Grades Almost NEVER STOP Mattering

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:41 pm

delusional wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
anon168 wrote:I've been saying this forever.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=191266#p5791314


To what extent does this hold true after an Art. III clerkship and a year or two of experience?

I guess that all the people with below median grades and Art. III clerkships can stop worrying.


I know of a few people from my T14 who landed Art. III clerkships with roughly median grades in years past. Just sayin'.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.