The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[spleenworship]

I got 3 rejection e-mails on Christmas. I also got two responses to motions. HAPPY HOLIDAYS, JESSUF

That blows. Sorry chica.

Also sorry for late response.

[mr. wednesday]

An addition to the whole DA/PD argument: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/201 ... ackup-plan

Makes sense, but in an unfortunate way. A big part of why PSLF eligible jobs are worth the low pay is that you can stay for 10 years if you are willing. Make them an up and out system like biglaw, and all you have is low pay for a few years, then you still owe your full loan balance and you probably have to move to be able to get another DA/PD job, if you even can.

[rad lulz]

n

[Anonymous User]

I know it's been the holidays, but I haven't had an interview anywhere in months. I can't find any place that is hiring in CA. Anyone else in this boat?

[Anonymous User]

I am a '13 grad, now licensed, who has still popped in and posted anonymously in this thread sometimes. I have been doing document review and very occasional project work for solo attorneys. I have had about 6 first-round interviews since graduation. I was the #2 choice for three jobs between July and October. Then I didn't get any interviews from October to December, and also had a four week (and thus unpaid) dry spell between document review projects over the holidays. In December I had two interviews appear out of nowhere. One was for a 300-attorney law firm in my dream city working for big companies in a couple exciting practice areas, the kind of job I wanted 2L year and had given up ever having a chance of getting. The other job was for a midsize company, a job that I thought was basically nonlegal (contracts administration and/or compliance) but where I learned in the interview the company actually wanted me to keep (and would pay for) my license and bar dues and do a good amount of actual in-house counsel work as well as more management/administrative type stuff. I was thrilled with both opportunities and am waiting to hear back on either a second interview or offer at both (they said I would not hear until after the holidays). The company is also in my dream city.

Then, my phone rang just now (while I was hitting refresh on my e-mail hoping to hear from the big firm or the company) and it was the partner of a smaller firm where I interviewed earlier in the fall. They had liked me, but I was interviewing back in the fall for a location and practice area that were not the best fit for my resume and family needs. Of course I said all the right things about why I wanted the job and why the location worked, but they could still probably tell it was not the best fit long-term. They never sent me a rejection but there was just silence and because of the location and practice area I didn't mind the fizzle much. Nice people though. They have another opening now in the city where I want to be and a practice area I really enjoy. The partner didn't give me a job offer but basically said the opening came up, they liked me and had wanted to find a position for me in the firm that would be a good fit, and why don't I come in to meet some more people and see if we can work something out. It kind of sounded like a soft offer. The initial salary would probably be really low (but better than doc review, and with benefits) but I would learn a ton and there's enough growth opportunity to be excited about. I am meeting with her next week.

So I went two incredibly depressing months with no interviews, then went four weeks without a pay check as a nice reminder of how precarious my job situation with document review is. Right before Christmas, too. Now I am waiting to hear back from a biglaw(ish) job, an interesting in-house opportunity that would probably pay quite well (better than small firm) and what feels very close to an offer from a small firm with a practice area I truly enjoy. I feel closer to being gainfully employed than I have in a long time, and have three irons in the fire instead of none. But I am also painfully aware from past experience that I could be back to nothing in a matter of weeks and none of these job leads are close to certainties. And I still find it kind of dizzying that, as an entry-level attorney, I am interviewing for jobs with a 30-50k variance in salary.

Adding to the crazy randomness of this whole f-ing process is that I got the biglaw(ish) interview through a random, lazy mass mailing effort. I sent a resume and a three sentence e-mail. I have never had mass-mailing work in the slightest. The in-house job was from a resume submit via LinkedIn/Monster/Bright/other big job board. I also made contact with the small firm via a job board initially, but the phone call from the partner came after months of silence and for a completely different (and much more ideal) location and practice area than that for which I initially applied.

I'm not a success story yet. And I'm not sure how hopeful this post is, because even the good news emphasizes how out of our control, random and impenetrable the hiring process is for 3Ls and grads. I think there are two takeaways here that might be positive. One is that especially for licensed recent grads there could be some January movement. The partner at the small firm said that now that the holidays were over they were trying to get some hiring in place. The second is that it is probably worth the effort to keep multiple channels/approaches open. That probably seems super obvious. But I think it's easy to see how little ROI there is on some approaches (like mass mailing) and just give up. I would not take away from my post that mass mailing is a viable approach or you should feel even a shred of hope about it. I would still expect nothing from mass mailing, because I am at 1 success out of probably 600 mass mails between 1L and now (and that success just an interview). But you should probably keep doing it on the side, because you never know. I happened to get a resume in to an attorney at this firm right as a need arose but before they got around to advertising for the position. I guess where the odds are SO against you you just gotta do everything. And you really never know where the right connection will be made. Hearing from a small firm partner I thought had long forgotten about me was kind of exciting.

For post-grad folks or even 3Ls, one approach to mass-mailing, especially small firms, is to e-mail an attorney a resume and short e-mail saying you are seeking project work (ie, helping out with research and writing) but would also be open to learning about full-time positions if there happens to be a need. You kind of get a two-fer that way.

Anyway, just wanted to report in. I feel cautiously cheerful about the prospect of having a job by February but am still going to send out some resumes this week and keep plugging away at doc review. But it's amazing what even a little hope can do. I was just obsessing about the two interviews I had in December and then having a third prospect added in with that phone call just made my day and eased the pressure on the other two.

Good luck and keep plugging away!

[Bikeflip]

Hang in there, Jessuf. Good luck, anon!

I'll give an update to the failed callback: I called to confirm which of the conflicting messages I received, callback or no callback, was valid. They had me come in for a call back, but I could tell I was D.o.A. during the interview. They wanted someone with more business experience, and I have close to zero. Still, I put on a good face and got through it by putting myself in the best light possible. It wasn't enough. Rejection by email this morning.

[champ33]

Hey anon with the long post above... It's great to hear that there are still opportunities out there. Would you mind sharing at least vaguely your school rank/stats as a point of reference?

[Anonymous User]

Hi, I'm the long post person above. Tier one, just outside top third, moot court and a competitive secondary journal to the extent any secondary matters at all. Looking in the market of the law school.

[spleenworship]

Well... depending on the medical waiver... I'm potentially out of the Vale and into the USAF.

[rad lulz]

Well... depending on the medical waiver... I'm potentially out of the Vale and into the USAF.

Hey man that's pretty rad

When will you know?

[spleenworship]

Well... depending on the medical waiver... I'm potentially out of the Vale and into the USAF.

Hey man that's pretty rad

When will you know?

I guess it takes a couple weeks or even months to get the medical started, then anywhere from 2 weeks to a year to get the final decision. So... anytime in the next 18 months really.

[BarbellDreams]

Hang in there, Jessuf. Good luck, anon!

I'll give an update to the failed callback: I called to confirm which of the conflicting messages I received, callback or no callback, was valid. They had me come in for a call back, but I could tell I was D.o.A. during the interview. They wanted someone with more business experience, and I have close to zero. Still, I put on a good face and got through it by putting myself in the best light possible. It wasn't enough. Rejection by email this morning.

Sorry to hear man. Always strange to see when firms interview candidates and ding based on lack of experience when they saw the resume and know what the experience level is before ever offering the interview.

[spleenworship]

Hang in there, Jessuf. Good luck, anon!

I'll give an update to the failed callback: I called to confirm which of the conflicting messages I received, callback or no callback, was valid. They had me come in for a call back, but I could tell I was D.o.A. during the interview. They wanted someone with more business experience, and I have close to zero. Still, I put on a good face and got through it by putting myself in the best light possible. It wasn't enough. Rejection by email this morning.

Sorry to hear man. Always strange to see when firms interview candidates and ding based on lack of experience when they saw the resume and know what the experience level is before ever offering the interview.

[rad lulz]

Well... depending on the medical waiver... I'm potentially out of the Vale and into the USAF.

Hey man that's pretty rad

When will you know?

I guess it takes a couple weeks or even months to get the medical started, then anywhere from 2 weeks to a year to get the final decision. So... anytime in the next 18 months really.

Oh man dat wait

You think you got a good shot at getting the waiver?

[spleenworship]

Well... depending on the medical waiver... I'm potentially out of the Vale and into the USAF.

Hey man that's pretty rad

When will you know?

I guess it takes a couple weeks or even months to get the medical started, then anywhere from 2 weeks to a year to get the final decision. So... anytime in the next 18 months really.

Oh man dat wait

You think you got a good shot at getting the waiver?

Depending on who you talk to it's between 99% and 30%... so who fricking knows. I'm going to keep interviewing for other jobs, just in case.

[Bikeflip]

Thanks bros. I know one of the senior associates at the firm. I'll email him to see what I can improve on.

I guess it takes a couple weeks or even months to get the medical started, then anywhere from 2 weeks to a year to get the final decision. So... anytime in the next 18 months really.

Oh man dat wait

You think you got a good shot at getting the waiver?

Depending on who you talk to it's between 99% and 30%... so who fricking knows. I'm going to keep interviewing for other jobs, just in case.

Dunno about the waiver, but I can tell you about the time line. One of my classmates interviewed with USAF JAG last winter, accepted a position last spring, and got his med waiver a few weeks ago. Another one is going into Navy JAG, but sequester cuts delayed his deployment time (or whatever they call it) by a year.

[lolwat]

I have had about 6 first-round interviews since graduation. I was the #2 choice for three jobs between July and October. Then I didn't get any interviews from October to December, and also had a four week (and thus unpaid) dry spell between document review projects over the holidays. In December I had two interviews appear out of nowhere.

This kind of stuff happened to me. 3-4 interviews at a time, silence for a while from everywhere while slowly getting rejected for various reasons, then 3-4 interviews all of a sudden. The last time it had been probably 2-3 months before my last interview, and I had two calls within a week for interviews. While traveling for those two, I got a call for a third interview, and right after getting back home, I got a call for a fourth. One of the initial interviews turned into an offer so I ended up canceling the third and fourth interviews.

It's random as shit.

[Anonymous User]

So, I have had an interesting potential opportunity pop up, and I needed some outside input on this. A friend of a friend is a rising star at one of the Big 4 accounting firms and he said he would be happy to refer me for a position with his firm in any field that I was interested in. I am super interested in tax, and I have been considering an LL.M as my avenue out of the Vale (if I can get into NYU or GULC). I know a lot people out of those programs end up at Big 4s, so this opportunity really interests me. The position would be entry level w/ salary high-60s to low-70s with possibilities for bonuses plus there are a ton of cities that my fiancee and I would be happy to live in, including our top target.

So here is the rub... I really want to be a lawyer. I know it sounds cheesy, but I love this law crap. What do you guys think about treating this potential position as like a transactional clerkship, 2-3 years w/ the firm, then trying to lateral into big law firm/ tax boutique/ IRS? Is this possible? Since the hours would be better, I could be active in the local bar, participate in pro bono work, network, etc. to keep connections to the legal community. I would also be able to get good experience in the type of law that I really want to do (tax/ M&A/ financial services). Plus, I have heard anecedotally that some Big 4s will pay for LL.M degrees, but this might require an additional commitment to stay w/ the firm. I know a jobs a job and I can't be picky right now, but I am looking for advice on how I could use this opportunity. If it helps, I am t15% at t40 LR board.

Thoughts? Thanks for the help.

[Anonymous User]

I recently found out that I am out of the Vale, but I won't start my job for up to a year after graduation. Should I be looking into finding another legal job for the short term? I had assumed anything that pays the bills for the short term would work. I dread the thought of submitting another hundred applications only to receive one hundred rejections.

[rad lulz]

So, I have had an interesting potential opportunity pop up, and I needed some outside input on this. A friend of a friend is a rising star at one of the Big 4 accounting firms and he said he would be happy to refer me for a position with his firm in any field that I was interested in. I am super interested in tax, and I have been considering an LL.M as my avenue out of the Vale (if I can get into NYU or GULC). I know a lot people out of those programs end up at Big 4s, so this opportunity really interests me. The position would be entry level w/ salary high-60s to low-70s with possibilities for bonuses plus there are a ton of cities that my fiancee and I would be happy to live in, including our top target.

So here is the rub... I really want to be a lawyer. I know it sounds cheesy, but I love this law crap. What do you guys think about treating this potential position as like a transactional clerkship, 2-3 years w/ the firm, then trying to lateral into big law firm/ tax boutique/ IRS? Is this possible? Since the hours would be better, I could be active in the local bar, participate in pro bono work, network, etc. to keep connections to the legal community. I would also be able to get good experience in the type of law that I really want to do (tax/ M&A/ financial services). Plus, I have heard anecedotally that some Big 4s will pay for LL.M degrees, but this might require an additional commitment to stay w/ the firm. I know a jobs a job and I can't be picky right now, but I am looking for advice on how I could use this opportunity. If it helps, I am t15% at t40 LR board.

Thoughts? Thanks for the help.

Pm user Anthony Davis

[spleenworship]

Dunno about the waiver, but I can tell you about the time line. One of my classmates interviewed with USAF JAG last winter, accepted a position last spring, and got his med waiver a few weeks ago. Another one is going into Navy JAG, but sequester cuts delayed his deployment time (or whatever they call it) by a year.

Wow... so 9 months to waiver maybe. Well, it is what it is.

[spleenworship]

I recently found out that I am out of the Vale, but I won't start my job for up to a year after graduation. Should I be looking into finding another legal job for the short term? I had assumed anything that pays the bills for the short term would work. I dread the thought of submitting another hundred applications only to receive one hundred rejections.

Apply to more jobs, even though it sucks. Two reasons: 1. you make money and get experience. 2. you need a fallback just in case this one doesn't work out. YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

I am the '13 grad anon who posted yesterday about three potential job leads I had: A large firm, a company (where the position would be 1/2 or 1/3 law practice), and a small firm. The large firm and the company said they would get back to me after the holidays. With the small firm, I would not be surprised if I got an offer at my interview next week or shortly thereafter. I have some mixed feelings about the small firm but absolutely need the income, the experience, and the benefits. With the obvious qualifier that I may not get the small firm offer at all, I am potentially worried about having to give the small firm an answer before I hear back from the big firm and the company. Here are my questions, concerns:

1) How long is it reasonable to ask a small firm to wait while you consider their offer? What reasons can you give for wanting the longest possible time (ie, two or three weeks) other than wanting to chase down better offers? I have a spouse so there is the obvious courtesy of talking to one's spouse, but that in theory would only take a few days. I do have a few mentors (old bosses, family friends who are lawyers) who have provided wonderful advice in the past, and in theory it could take some time to talk to them about the offer. I could say that while I am nearly 100% sure I will accept and would love to work at the firm, I would appreciate time to talk to some of my mentors whose advice has been invaluable in the past. Or be honest that I need to at least follow up on some other positions in order to have all the information to make a fully informed decision, (with a qualifer such as "even though a big part of me wants to say yes right away and your firm is my top choice right now")? This is, of course, only if they push back and want an immediate answer.

2) In an ideal world I can call up the large firm and company and say I have an offer from another employer but the firm/company is my first choice if they are in a position to make me an offer. But a) the company still wants to do a second round interview with its top candidates so I'm not sure how fast they could move and b) while the big firm did not mention a second interview, I'm just not sure how much of a rush they're in to make a hire. Just getting back from the holidays, figuring out how many people to hire and with what experience level to fill the sudden need that got me the interview in the first place. The risk I see here is that I might be under consideration for an offer, but they're willing to let me go rather than rush the process so much and end up rejecting me rather than hurrying up with the offer. Maybe they would have rejected me anyway, but maybe not.

3) If the big firm gave me an offer even after I accepted the small firm, I would renege on the offer from the small firm in a heartbeat tbh. Big firm is a tiny, tiny office of a regional/national firm in my home market that does a lot of multistate work. Small firm is focused on a demographic and practice area that have basically zero overlap with the big firm. But, same city, and the small firm partner is not super prominent but also not a nobody. I know if I renege the small firm partner will care and I will burn those bridges. That's fine. Will the big firm care, and if I were so lucky to accept an offer with them while reneging on the small firm, do I have to tell the big firm?

4) So, I am torn between using the small firm offer to push an offer out of the big firm versus not. Ideally I would be able to let the big firm know I have a competing offer and would appreciate an answer sooner if possible, but would come work for them regardless of when the offer came. That seems a bit smarmy and unprofessional though? I guess I feel a bit like the big firm is such a long shot that I shouldn't risk a preemptive rejection by rushing them with my small firm offer. OTOH, they are a tiny office with what seems like a good deal of autonomy, so it might be worth going to the big firm and hoping they can make things happen quickly.

What would y'all do in this situation? Best case scenario the small firm gives me 2 or 3 weeks to decide so I can actually give the big firm some time to move, but I just wonder if they're going to want an answer much sooner than that. TBF, they did interview me for the first time in October, so have not exactly been in a huge rush. I realize that this would be a GREAT problem to have if I am so lucky as to get an offer from the small firm, and I would be grateful and probably find the work enjoyable and could build on it. But we're talking potentially double a difference in salary and a huge difference in future prospects here, so I want to be ready to make the right move should things happen quickly. I apologize for the length of this post but find the advice here much more on point than it might be from CSO. Thanks.

[NYstate]

Hi all,

I am the '13 grad anon who posted yesterday about three potential job leads I had: A large firm, a company (where the position would be 1/2 or 1/3 law practice), and a small firm. The large firm and the company said they would get back to me after the holidays. With the small firm, I would not be surprised if I got an offer at my interview next week or shortly thereafter. I have some mixed feelings about the small firm but absolutely need the income, the experience, and the benefits. With the obvious qualifier that I may not get the small firm offer at all, I am potentially worried about having to give the small firm an answer before I hear back from the big firm and the company. Here are my questions, concerns:

1) How long is it reasonable to ask a small firm to wait while you consider their offer? What reasons can you give for wanting the longest possible time (ie, two or three weeks) other than wanting to chase down better offers? I have a spouse so there is the obvious courtesy of talking to one's spouse, but that in theory would only take a few days. I do have a few mentors (old bosses, family friends who are lawyers) who have provided wonderful advice in the past, and in theory it could take some time to talk to them about the offer. I could say that while I am nearly 100% sure I will accept and would love to work at the firm, I would appreciate time to talk to some of my mentors whose advice has been invaluable in the past. Or be honest that I need to at least follow up on some other positions in order to have all the information to make a fully informed decision, (with a qualifer such as "even though a big part of me wants to say yes right away and your firm is my top choice right now")? This is, of course, only if they push back and want an immediate answer.

2) In an ideal world I can call up the large firm and company and say I have an offer from another employer but the firm/company is my first choice if they are in a position to make me an offer. But a) the company still wants to do a second round interview with its top candidates so I'm not sure how fast they could move and b) while the big firm did not mention a second interview, I'm just not sure how much of a rush they're in to make a hire. Just getting back from the holidays, figuring out how many people to hire and with what experience level to fill the sudden need that got me the interview in the first place. The risk I see here is that I might be under consideration for an offer, but they're willing to let me go rather than rush the process so much and end up rejecting me rather than hurrying up with the offer. Maybe they would have rejected me anyway, but maybe not.

3) If the big firm gave me an offer even after I accepted the small firm, I would renege on the offer from the small firm in a heartbeat tbh. Big firm is a tiny, tiny office of a regional/national firm in my home market that does a lot of multistate work. Small firm is focused on a demographic and practice area that have basically zero overlap with the big firm. But, same city, and the small firm partner is not super prominent but also not a nobody. I know if I renege the small firm partner will care and I will burn those bridges. That's fine. Will the big firm care, and if I were so lucky to accept an offer with them while reneging on the small firm, do I have to tell the big firm?

4) So, I am torn between using the small firm offer to push an offer out of the big firm versus not. Ideally I would be able to let the big firm know I have a competing offer and would appreciate an answer sooner if possible, but would come work for them regardless of when the offer came. That seems a bit smarmy and unprofessional though? I guess I feel a bit like the big firm is such a long shot that I shouldn't risk a preemptive rejection by rushing them with my small firm offer. OTOH, they are a tiny office with what seems like a good deal of autonomy, so it might be worth going to the big firm and hoping they can make things happen quickly.

What would y'all do in this situation? Best case scenario the small firm gives me 2 or 3 weeks to decide so I can actually give the big firm some time to move, but I just wonder if they're going to want an answer much sooner than that. TBF, they did interview me for the first time in October, so have not exactly been in a huge rush. I realize that this would be a GREAT problem to have if I am so lucky as to get an offer from the small firm, and I would be grateful and probably find the work enjoyable and could build on it. But we're talking potentially double a difference in salary and a huge difference in future prospects here, so I want to be ready to make the right move should things happen quickly. I apologize for the length of this post but find the advice here much more on point than it might be from CSO. Thanks.

I have never been in this situation so I am just basing this on my best guess. Maybe rad or some others have more informed opinions

My advice is to take the small firm offer and see if anything develops at the big firm. The big firm may end up not hiring anyone and they are unlikely to care if you have another offer (care, in the sense that they would change their timetable.)

If anything, contact the big firm and check to see what their timetable and their plans are for hiring. Big firm hiring in small offices is unpredictable and, as mentioned, I would worry that they may end up not hiring anyone. You could do that whether you get the small firm offer. They told you after the holidays and the holidays are over. Just don't be annoying when you ask. If you know you would leave the small firm for the biglaw job, I'm not sure it matters when the big firm gives you an offer.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know how much longer I can keep this up. Just got a reject letter that I seemed to have a really good shot at, with my only disadvantage being I have no connection to the midwest. I now have nothing and it's been a year since I finished school. I am currently working on fellowship, but that will be ending in a few months and the place I am working at treats me horribly. I am looking at the possibility of finishing the fellowship without a job lined up, meaning no more income and therefore unable to afford living anywhere. Going back home would be a death sentence. In all truth, I am more and more certain that if I end my fellowship and current lease without a job lined up, suicide is the best solution rather than drag out this pain or settle for a life of failure after all the hard work I put in, especially as the opportunities that seem to become available seem to only get worse with time.