The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

Licensed 2013 grad here. Does anyone have any thoughts or information about taking a contracts associate position at a contract research org or pharma company? These are positions in an in-house legal department but are not JD required. Seems like the company I am looking at does promote people higher up in the legal department internally occasionally but I am wondering if a position like this would be a death knell for any actual lawyer job or if, hopefully, it could be good experience for an in-house job or entry level health care/pharma/corps department of a law firm. You are at least dealing with complex contracts on a day to day basis. Or are there options to move up in management in the pharma industry? Curious for people's thoughts on this versus shitlaw (workers' comp, ID, etc.) for creating the most potential for upward mobility for one's career, legal or otherwise.

Thanks! So tired of this job search.

[mr. wednesday]

Hi all,

Licensed 2013 grad here. Does anyone have any thoughts or information about taking a contracts associate position at a contract research org or pharma company? These are positions in an in-house legal department but are not JD required. Seems like the company I am looking at does promote people higher up in the legal department internally occasionally but I am wondering if a position like this would be a death knell for any actual lawyer job or if, hopefully, it could be good experience for an in-house job or entry level health care/pharma/corps department of a law firm. You are at least dealing with complex contracts on a day to day basis. Or are there options to move up in management in the pharma industry? Curious for people's thoughts on this versus shitlaw (workers' comp, ID, etc.) for creating the most potential for upward mobility for one's career, legal or otherwise.

Thanks! So tired of this job search.

I think a lot of advice about foreclosing options becomes less relevant the longer you are unemployed. A non-JD required job is always going to have less clear consequences for the rest of your career, and will probably make it harder to become a lawyer later. But not having a bar passage required job also makes it harder to be a practicing lawyer, and it comes without the paycheck. I'd say if this is your only option, take it and keep applying.

[withoutapaddle]

How much does the program cost?
For the 2012-2013 academic year, tuition is $74,572. Please note that tuition increases can occur during each year of the program.

Plus living expenses, books, and fees brings the grand total to 106K a year for three years.

$318,000.00 to have a privilege of applying for a job is insane.

I think a great way to fix the problem besides the government getting out of the student loan business, would be to make schools accountable for their graduates. If the school only placed 50% of 400 students, than the next year the ABA should require that the school only accepts 200 students (only accepting as many students as they can place).

[BarbellDreams]

Hi all,

Licensed 2013 grad here. Does anyone have any thoughts or information about taking a contracts associate position at a contract research org or pharma company? These are positions in an in-house legal department but are not JD required. Seems like the company I am looking at does promote people higher up in the legal department internally occasionally but I am wondering if a position like this would be a death knell for any actual lawyer job or if, hopefully, it could be good experience for an in-house job or entry level health care/pharma/corps department of a law firm. You are at least dealing with complex contracts on a day to day basis. Or are there options to move up in management in the pharma industry? Curious for people's thoughts on this versus shitlaw (workers' comp, ID, etc.) for creating the most potential for upward mobility for one's career, legal or otherwise.

Thanks! So tired of this job search.

I think a lot of advice about foreclosing options becomes less relevant the longer you are unemployed. A non-JD required job is always going to have less clear consequences for the rest of your career, and will probably make it harder to become a lawyer later. But not having a bar passage required job also makes it harder to be a practicing lawyer, and it comes without the paycheck. I'd say if this is your only option, take it and keep applying.

This.

Its all personal choices based on your situation. If you're not sure how to pay rent next month I'd absolutely take the job. If you have parents who are gonna cover everything indefinitely until you find work I would keep looking for attorney positions unless you don't wanna be an attorney anymore.

[JDCA2012]

Had 10 interviews in the last two months. One callback, got rejected as they went with another applicant. Half the places I interviewed at were terrible firms/companies where the risk of committing malpractice was high, the pay was low, and the exit options murky at best.

Got an interview at a big ID firm, thought it would be a great opportunity. Found out their billables were 200 hours a month. And the pay was substantially low (50k). That's like making 15 bucks an hour with no time off.

Just keep hanging in there bros. The market sucks, but we'll make it through.

Ten interviews is a lot, man.

Yeah, seriously.
I have a final round interview today, first job I've been in serious running for since March. This post-grad vale has not been kind, I am hoping and praying that this one could be it.

good luck on your interview!

as for the 10 interviews, yeah i got really lucky getting interviewed that many times in the past few months. especially since i was just licensed in june. 10 interviews is a lot in 2 months, but so is 10 rejections. most of the places, i was glad to be rejected from or take myself out of the running, as they were either unethical SPs, small firms with bad working environments (based on the type of work, partner, etc.), a recruiter, companies who wanted a lawyer figurehead as in-house counsel and a big insurance defense firm that required 200 billables a month with 50-60k salary. Of the 10 interviews, only 3 turned out to be really good small firms, and i got a callback on one of those that i lost out to. my confidence has taken a big hit, but i just gotta march forward. i'm also very lucky to be currently working as an attorney (albeit being paid as a clerk) to pad my resume, and also not be forced to take one of those crap jobs i interviewed for.

Thanks!! I'm not sure how it went... Interviewed with a number of different people, at this point I have no idea how to judge these things, just smile and be positive.
10 interviews is still 10 interviews, sounds like you'll be getting on to something good here soon!

[sparty99]

Hi all,

Licensed 2013 grad here. Does anyone have any thoughts or information about taking a contracts associate position at a contract research org or pharma company? These are positions in an in-house legal department but are not JD required. Seems like the company I am looking at does promote people higher up in the legal department internally occasionally but I am wondering if a position like this would be a death knell for any actual lawyer job or if, hopefully, it could be good experience for an in-house job or entry level health care/pharma/corps department of a law firm. You are at least dealing with complex contracts on a day to day basis. Or are there options to move up in management in the pharma industry? Curious for people's thoughts on this versus shitlaw (workers' comp, ID, etc.) for creating the most potential for upward mobility for one's career, legal or otherwise.

Thanks! So tired of this job search.

I think a lot of advice about foreclosing options becomes less relevant the longer you are unemployed. A non-JD required job is always going to have less clear consequences for the rest of your career, and will probably make it harder to become a lawyer later. But not having a bar passage required job also makes it harder to be a practicing lawyer, and it comes without the paycheck. I'd say if this is your only option, take it and keep applying.

This.

Its all personal choices based on your situation. If you're not sure how to pay rent next month I'd absolutely take the job. If you have parents who are gonna cover everything indefinitely until you find work I would keep looking for attorney positions unless you don't wanna be an attorney anymore.

You take the position no matter what. THEN you continue to apply for legal jobs.

[sparty99]

BANKRUPTCY AND LITIGATION ASSOCIATE PART-TIME/CONTRACT-DELAWARE OFFICE

Major law firm seeks a part-time/contract associate (2-3 days/week 3-6 months) with 0-2 years experience in bankruptcy with emphasis in litigation to join our Delaware Office and be part of a team working on matters inDelaware,New York,New Jersey,Baltimore,Texasand elsewhere. Large and experienced department of 25+ full-time bankruptcy attorneys with a sophisticated practice offering an extraordinary opportunity for challenging, interesting, and rewarding work. We seek a motivated individual devoted to meeting the highest standards of excellence and serving clients, and who wants to be part of an established and dynamic office and firm. Strong academic credentials and excellent oral and written communication, research and analytical skills are required. Delaware Bar required, additional Bar(s) New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, District of Columbia and/or Virginia a plus. We offer an excellent compensation package and benefits program. Please e-mail resume for consideration to:

Gayle P. Englert
Director of Human Resources
Cole, Schotz, Meisel, Forman & Leonard, P.A.
Court Plaza North
25 Main Street, P.O. Box 800
Hackensack, NJ 07602-0800
genglert@coleschotz.com
Please visit us at our website. http://www.coleschotz.com
NEW JERSEY/ NEW YORK/ DELAWARE/ MARYLAND/ TEXAS
Cole Schotz is an Equal Opportunity Employer

[BlueLotus]

For the do-gooder Valers out there:
Staff Attorney

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Job Category: Attorney
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Legal Aid of Southeastern PA

Legal Aid of Southeastern Pennsylvania is looking for a staff attorney to provide direct legal services to homeowners facing mortgage foreclosure and other homeownership and consumer issues in Bucks, Montgomery, Chester and Delaware Counties. Applicants must be licensed to practice law in Pennsylvania and committed to public interest law.

Please email a resume, cover letter and writing sample to Elizabeth Wood Fritsch at efritsch@lasp.org or fax to 610-275-5406.

This posting expires on November 30, 2013.

[Anonymous User]

New low for me. Finally got an interview at a biglaw firm, but the interview was cancelled a few hours later.

Long story short, I tried to follow the advice from on here and apply to the kind of work I did before law school. Well I worked at a V100 firm as a legal assistant before law school. So I applied for a non-lawyer staff position at this firm, and got a call that they wanted to interview me. A few hours later, a very apologetic HR lady called and said that they didn't realize that I was an attorney and I could not be considered for the non-lawyer position. Since I applied online, I was only able to list my previous legal assistant gig at the V100 firm and my current position, which is a law clerk for a federal judge. The HR person reviewing saw "law clerk" and assumed that I was working in the clerk's office for the federal court.

At this point I am beside myself. I got the standard "you have a great resume" spiel from the HR person, but they have "no openings for someone with my qualifications." My clerkship ends in August and I have nothing on the horizon. If I can't get a job as a lawyer and I can't fall back on my "career" before law school, where the hell am I supposed to go?

[Anonymous User]

I was only able to list my previous legal assistant gig at the V100 firm and my current position, which is a law clerk for a federal judge.

My clerkship ends in August and I have nothing on the horizon. If I can't get a job as a lawyer and I can't fall back on my "career" before law school, where the hell am I supposed to go?

You are an Article III clerk and can't get even an interview? That's terrible. It also doesn't make much sense to me, since pretty much every firm I'm looking at is taking applications from current clerks. I'm sure you're doing this already, but are you applying: everywhere you have ties, where your current clerkship is, NYC, LA, DC, and Chicago?

Also, and hopefully someone else can chime in here, it's possible that clerkship recruiting takes place later in the year, closer to you completion date. Surely your judge and his career clerks/staff should have some idea about this. Your career services office may also be able to offer some input on this.

I've got to imagine that an Article III clerk will be able to land something for when her clerkship ends, so I wouldn't be panicking too much just yet.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm not going to say that every Article III clerk waltzes into a great position, but I do think it's much too early to worry about realistically going jobless (I say "realistically" because I realize everyone worries about what they worry about, and I totally understand that not having a job lined up is stressful. But my understanding is that a lot of clerk recruiting takes place post-February or so).

[chrisbru]

I never understand the ID firms that require 200 billables a month. At 50 billables per week I'd have to work a bare minimum of 70 hour weeks, on a good week. So you want me to pull 70-80 hour weeks biglaw style for a third of a biglaw salary?

From what I know about ID though you pretty much bill every minute you are at the office aside from breaks. 50 billables per week probably only takes 55-60 hours of being at the office.

If you're going to do an MBA, look at European 1 year programs (Cambridge, Oxford, Insead, LBS). Cheaper, shorter, international experience will look good, easier to get into than say HBS, Standford, Yale ect.

I was actually looking at Northwestern's three year JD/MBA, but the thought of 106K a year made me sick. $318,000.00 of debt is insane, and to be honest I think guaranteed loans are the problem. Schools can charge whatever they want knowing you can pay for it through government loans (they even conveniently put the link to fasa on their sites).

Depending on what you focused on in law school, you may be able to get the MBA and move into consulting.

Depends on your financial situation.

European programs? Is that even remotely competitive for consulting jobs in the states?

[luckyjd]

Northwestern costs 106K A YEAR???

That's for JD/MBA. They basically tack on the MBA cost to the JD cost spread out over three years. Ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

I was only able to list my previous legal assistant gig at the V100 firm and my current position, which is a law clerk for a federal judge.

My clerkship ends in August and I have nothing on the horizon. If I can't get a job as a lawyer and I can't fall back on my "career" before law school, where the hell am I supposed to go?

You are an Article III clerk and can't get even an interview? That's terrible. It also doesn't make much sense to me, since pretty much every firm I'm looking at is taking applications from current clerks. I'm sure you're doing this already, but are you applying: everywhere you have ties, where your current clerkship is, NYC, LA, DC, and Chicago?

Also, and hopefully someone else can chime in here, it's possible that clerkship recruiting takes place later in the year, closer to you completion date. Surely your judge and his career clerks/staff should have some idea about this. Your career services office may also be able to offer some input on this.

I've got to imagine that an Article III clerk will be able to land something for when her clerkship ends, so I wouldn't be panicking too much just yet.

Clerkship is in "flyover" land and I have no ties to NYC, LA, DC, and Chicago. My judge has also been in public service and has no real connections to larger firms. There are only a few firms in my district and none of them are hiring. All the clerks before me had firm jobs secured before they started their clerkship.

[mr. wednesday]

I wouldn't worry about ties to NYC or DC; just apply and be coherent about why you'd like to be there and you'll be okay on that front. If you've ever lived anywhere in CA, I'd apply to LA... and even if not, there are one or two firms known for basically only hiring clerks so try those anyway.

Then look to major markets in states similar to yours. If you are in Wyoming, look to Montana, Colorado, and Utah, etc. People understand that smaller markets aren't always hiring but if you are willing to live in Flagstaff, you're probably not a flight risk for Albuquerque, you know?

[chrisbru]

Twist: Northwestern has a one-year MBA program. If I qualify (I should, with my undergrad stuff), and can get in, I do it right?

[JazzOne]

Twist: Northwestern has a one-year MBA program. If I qualify (I should, with my undergrad stuff), and can get in, I do it right?

How much will that extra year cost you? Zero income > more debt

[rad lulz]

Twist: Northwestern has a one-year MBA program. If I qualify (I should, with my undergrad stuff), and can get in, I do it right?

Kelloggs probably gonna want a couple years of post grad work experience. And I wouldn't do it just bc you don't have a job, anyway

[chrisbru]

Twist: Northwestern has a one-year MBA program. If I qualify (I should, with my undergrad stuff), and can get in, I do it right?

How much will that extra year cost you? Zero income > more debt

In income? I dunno, not much.

Twist: Northwestern has a one-year MBA program. If I qualify (I should, with my undergrad stuff), and can get in, I do it right?

Kelloggs probably gonna want a couple years of post grad work experience. And I wouldn't do it just bc you don't have a job, anyway

I'm not, when I left the workforce to come back to school I was debating between law school and MBA. I went with law school because of similar corporate options (so I thought) and my thought that it would be better to have a law degree (it isn't) but really should have went with MBA school in the first place.

[Anonymous User]

Clerkship is in "flyover" land and I have no ties to NYC, LA, DC, and Chicago. My judge has also been in public service and has no real connections to larger firms. There are only a few firms in my district and none of them are hiring.

NYC, DC, LA, and Chicago don't require so much in the way of ties, which is why I suggested them.

Apply broadly in your clerkship region (e.g., midwest, mountain west, PNW, southwest, etc.), as you can probably now craft a reasonably believable narrative as why you want to stay there. Obviously, apply in your home region, as well.

[Lwoods]

New low for me. Finally got an interview at a biglaw firm, but the interview was cancelled a few hours later.

Long story short, I tried to follow the advice from on here and apply to the kind of work I did before law school. Well I worked at a V100 firm as a legal assistant before law school. So I applied for a non-lawyer staff position at this firm, and got a call that they wanted to interview me. A few hours later, a very apologetic HR lady called and said that they didn't realize that I was an attorney and I could not be considered for the non-lawyer position. Since I applied online, I was only able to list my previous legal assistant gig at the V100 firm and my current position, which is a law clerk for a federal judge. The HR person reviewing saw "law clerk" and assumed that I was working in the clerk's office for the federal court.

At this point I am beside myself. I got the standard "you have a great resume" spiel from the HR person, but they have "no openings for someone with my qualifications." My clerkship ends in August and I have nothing on the horizon. If I can't get a job as a lawyer and I can't fall back on my "career" before law school, where the hell am I supposed to go?

I know it sucks to be rejected for being overqualified, but I suspect you'll be glad you didn't get this spot a year from now.

I may be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that clerks with 1 year of clerk experience are considered 2nd year associates when they start at firms. It might make sense, then, that some firms don't determine their need for 2nd year associates until after associate reviews. Start putting feelers out to find out timelines. Firms like clerks; I'm sure you'll get more interest.

Also, did you say earlier why you're not working your contacts with the V100? Even if they don't have openings, they might be able to connect you with others who do. Let your friends from law school know that you're looking, too, in case opportunities arise at their firms.

[withoutapaddle]

Cambridge placed the majority of their grads with McKinsey.

[JazzOne]

Twist: Northwestern has a one-year MBA program. If I qualify (I should, with my undergrad stuff), and can get in, I do it right?

How much will that extra year cost you? Zero income > more debt

In income? I dunno, not much.

No, in tuition. How much more debt will you take on for an MBA? My point is that it's better to have no job and no income and incur no debt than to have no job, no income, and incur a boatload more debt on top of your LS debt.

[Bubbles 4 Life]

.

[Anonymous User]

How have things been going for 3Ls?

I am not getting interviews from my applications and I am pretty much applying for everything. Is it just me or has it been pretty quiet for everyone?