I want Nashville

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I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:01 pm

I was raised in Nashville, went to undergrad in Nashville, have family in Nashville, and chose to attend law school at Vanderbilt because I know that I want to permanently live in Nashville. At the end of 1L, I am above median, but probably not top third. I don't know yet about a journal.

What is my best strategy to land a job here in Nashville? Obviously, I will bid on every Nashville firm that I can at OCI, but I will be competing with the top of my class.

I don’t have any ties to anywhere else.
I don’t have close/family connections to lawyers in Nashville.
I don’t have any WE/IP/Military background.
I will have minimal debt, and I am willing to consider any kind of legal employment.

Is it worth bidding on firms that have a presence in Nashville, but are not hiring for their Nashville office?

Besides my ties to Nashville, what other selling points should I try to focus on?

What else should I be doing to network?

Thanks!

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romothesavior
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Re: I want Nashville

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What else should I be doing to network?

What are you doing to network? I didn't see any examples listed.

First of all, my knowledge of Nashville is limited. I do know it is difficult though, and a good friend of mine who goes there often says it is the most competitive market for Vandy.

That said, you sound like you have strong ties there. That will help. Are you working in town? If so, here are a few networking strategies I found helpful:

1. Meet with at least one lawyer from every firm you would consider working for, ideally someone on the recruiting committee if you can. Do coffee or lunch or whatever. A one-off coffee meeting won't get you a job, but a lot of times they will at least mention that they met you to the recruiters. I had a lot of interviewers at OCI say, "Oh, I heard you spoke with So-and-So a few weeks ago." That gives you a small boost right there. You can also tactfully name drop by mentioning that you spoke to So-and-So and they told you X, and I am really attracted to your firm because of X.

2. Talk to your profs. They likely have connections in town. Some of my best connections in STL came from professors that gave me names, and then they gave me names, and then they gave me names. Next thing you know you've got a big network of attorneys. Maybe they aren't bigshot partners, but it helps to know lots of people.

3. Once you get your OCI interviews, re-do (1) with new people. Try to have 2-3 contacts that you have personally met/spoken to at every firm you plan to aim for.

4. Don't forget the little guys. Hopefully you land some big Nash firm at OCI, but assume you won't. Make sure you talk to people at reputable small and mid-size firms. You want to get on their radar early, before the wave of desperate OCI strikeouts descend upon them

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fatduck
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Re: I want Nashville

Postby fatduck » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:30 pm

romo, just curious, did you have better luck reaching out to younger associates/recent grads or more senior associates/partners?

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:26 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What else should I be doing to network?

What are you doing to network? I didn't see any examples listed.

First of all, my knowledge of Nashville is limited. I do know it is difficult though, and a good friend of mine who goes there often says it is the most competitive market for Vandy.

That said, you sound like you have strong ties there. That will help. Are you working in town? If so, here are a few networking strategies I found helpful:

1. Meet with at least one lawyer from every firm you would consider working for, ideally someone on the recruiting committee if you can. Do coffee or lunch or whatever. A one-off coffee meeting won't get you a job, but a lot of times they will at least mention that they met you to the recruiters. I had a lot of interviewers at OCI say, "Oh, I heard you spoke with So-and-So a few weeks ago." That gives you a small boost right there. You can also tactfully name drop by mentioning that you spoke to So-and-So and they told you X, and I am really attracted to your firm because of X.

2. Talk to your profs. They likely have connections in town. Some of my best connections in STL came from professors that gave me names, and then they gave me names, and then they gave me names. Next thing you know you've got a big network of attorneys. Maybe they aren't bigshot partners, but it helps to know lots of people.

3. Once you get your OCI interviews, re-do (1) with new people. Try to have 2-3 contacts that you have personally met/spoken to at every firm you plan to aim for.

4. Don't forget the little guys. Hopefully you land some big Nash firm at OCI, but assume you won't. Make sure you talk to people at reputable small and mid-size firms. You want to get on their radar early, before the wave of desperate OCI strikeouts descend upon them

Do this.

But basically all the Nash firms are at OCI and are heavily bid. It's gonna be super hard to get interviews. Example: I think like 125 people bid Bradley, and there were probably only like 175 OCI participants. Furthermore, BBS, Bradley, Baker take duders w high grades. Expand your search to Chattanooga and probably Knoxville and Memphis.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:52 pm

rad lulz wrote:Expand your search to Chattanooga and probably Knoxville and Memphis.


I don't have ties to those cities. I thought that was pretty much a requirement.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Expand your search to Chattanooga and probably Knoxville and Memphis.


I don't have ties to those cities. I thought that was pretty much a requirement.

Chattanooga is more likely, but let's be real, with the competitiveness of Nashville, you don't really have much of a choice breh

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is it worth bidding on firms that have a presence in Nashville, but are not hiring for their Nashville office?

Besides my ties to Nashville, what other selling points should I try to focus on?


Well if they're not hiring in Nash, don't bid on them.

Unless you have some other things that you're not telling us here (sick internships or summer jobs or life experience or something), nothing you said above is really a selling point (no WE/IP/etc.).

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jeeptiger09
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Re: I want Nashville

Postby jeeptiger09 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:02 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Expand your search to Chattanooga and probably Knoxville and Memphis.


I don't have ties to those cities. I thought that was pretty much a requirement.

Chattanooga is more likely, but let's be real, with the competitiveness of Nashville, you don't really have much of a choice breh


Ties for Knoxville are required. Without them, it's not even worth wasting your time on cold mails.

Ties for Chattanooga aren't as valued as Knoxville. Having strong TN ties is probably sufficient for Chatt. Just gotta have good reasons for "why Chattanooga", etc. You will be grilled on that point.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:14 pm

rad lulz wrote:Unless you have some other things that you're not telling us here (sick internships or summer jobs or life experience or something), nothing you said above is really a selling point (no WE/IP/etc.).


No, but I'm sure I'm not the only K-JD in this situation. I have a judicial externship for half of this summer and a job at a small firm for the other half. I am not sure how people do extensive networking during the summer before OCI. Don't their employers generally expect them to be actually working?

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romothesavior
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Re: I want Nashville

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:36 pm

fatduck wrote:romo, just curious, did you have better luck reaching out to younger associates/recent grads or more senior associates/partners?

Generally younger associates. Probably because 1) they are more sympathetic to us and can remember the job hunt, 2) they haven't been hounded by law students looking for jobs for decades, and 3) they may be busy, but they probably have less important shit on their plates, if that makes sense.

What I usually did was look for alumni from my school, and then look at their picture and judge whether or not they look "nice." Very scientific approach.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Unless you have some other things that you're not telling us here (sick internships or summer jobs or life experience or something), nothing you said above is really a selling point (no WE/IP/etc.).


No, but I'm sure I'm not the only K-JD in this situation. I have a judicial externship for half of this summer and a job at a small firm for the other half. I am not sure how people do extensive networking during the summer before OCI. Don't their employers generally expect them to be actually working?

Set up lunches every day brah with Vandy alums. Talk about their practice areas and what it's like to practice in Nash.

You aren't the only K-JD in that situation, and that's the problem. People with 3.1s-3.2s are fairly fungible grade-wise. You NEED something else. Any cool college jerbs? Networking/connects can be a huge plus, that "something extra," but not if you don't exploit them.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby flcath » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:32 am

I'm much more optimistic about your odds than other ppl ITT. Play up your Nash ties, obviously--put that shit in your CL and don't be shy/subtle about it. People stretch their ties all the time, so you've gotta make your real ones exceptionally clear.

"As a born-and-raised Nashvillian (MBA '04, Belmont University '08), my very first priority is building a career here, in the city that I love."

Is this a well-written sentence? No. Should you talk like that when you're sitting down with the fratty dude that will be interviewing you at your CB? No. It's still not a terrible opening line, because it says what they're actually interested in.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:51 am

flcath wrote:I'm much more optimistic about your odds than other ppl ITT. Play up your Nash ties, obviously--put that shit in your CL and don't be shy/subtle about it. People stretch their ties all the time, so you've gotta make your real ones exceptionally clear.

"As a born-and-raised Nashvillian (MBA '04, Belmont University '08), my very first priority is building a career here, in the city that I love."

Is this a well-written sentence? No. Should you talk like that when you're sitting down with the fratty dude that will be interviewing you at your CB? No. It's still not a terrible opening line, because it says what they're actually interested in.

The top Nash firms that do most of the hiring are ties sensitive, but will make exceptions for Vandy kids with top grades and no ties. Firms like H3GM, Neal & Harwell, etc. still want ties and high grades. And they get them. There are more people who have ties than you might think.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby lawfirmrecruiter » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:I was raised in Nashville, went to undergrad in Nashville, have family in Nashville, and chose to attend law school at Vanderbilt because I know that I want to permanently live in Nashville. At the end of 1L, I am above median, but probably not top third. I don't know yet about a journal.

What is my best strategy to land a job here in Nashville? Obviously, I will bid on every Nashville firm that I can at OCI, but I will be competing with the top of my class.

I don’t have any ties to anywhere else.
I don’t have close/family connections to lawyers in Nashville.
I don’t have any WE/IP/Military background.
I will have minimal debt, and I am willing to consider any kind of legal employment.

Is it worth bidding on firms that have a presence in Nashville, but are not hiring for their Nashville office?

Besides my ties to Nashville, what other selling points should I try to focus on?

What else should I be doing to network?

Thanks!


Make a list of all the firms that are hiring and that you are interested in working for. Go visit with CSO and ask for their help with introductions to the alums at those firms. They are well connected with attorneys in town and can really help you with your strategy.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby flcath » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:44 am

rad lulz wrote:
flcath wrote:I'm much more optimistic about your odds than other ppl ITT. Play up your Nash ties, obviously--put that shit in your CL and don't be shy/subtle about it. People stretch their ties all the time, so you've gotta make your real ones exceptionally clear.

"As a born-and-raised Nashvillian (MBA '04, Belmont University '08), my very first priority is building a career here, in the city that I love."

Is this a well-written sentence? No. Should you talk like that when you're sitting down with the fratty dude that will be interviewing you at your CB? No. It's still not a terrible opening line, because it says what they're actually interested in.

The top Nash firms that do most of the hiring are ties sensitive, but will make exceptions for Vandy kids with top grades and no ties. Firms like H3GM, Neal & Harwell, etc. still want ties and high grades. And they get them. There are more people who have ties than you might think.

This could be true. I guess my impression of Vandy is that it draws relatively equally from all over, and thus has very few Tennesseans, and even fewer with good grades.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:48 am

flcath wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
flcath wrote:I'm much more optimistic about your odds than other ppl ITT. Play up your Nash ties, obviously--put that shit in your CL and don't be shy/subtle about it. People stretch their ties all the time, so you've gotta make your real ones exceptionally clear.

"As a born-and-raised Nashvillian (MBA '04, Belmont University '08), my very first priority is building a career here, in the city that I love."

Is this a well-written sentence? No. Should you talk like that when you're sitting down with the fratty dude that will be interviewing you at your CB? No. It's still not a terrible opening line, because it says what they're actually interested in.

The top Nash firms that do most of the hiring are ties sensitive, but will make exceptions for Vandy kids with top grades and no ties. Firms like H3GM, Neal & Harwell, etc. still want ties and high grades. And they get them. There are more people who have ties than you might think.

This could be true. I guess my impression of Vandy is that it draws relatively equally from all over, and thus has very few Tennesseans, and even fewer with good grades.

There are a decent number of Tennesseans; people from Memphis and Chattanooga can make a decent play for Nashville as well as Nashvillians. There are also a decent number of double Vandy people or Belmont people who can make a good play for Nashville firms. And there just aren't that many 2L SA spots in the city. 30ish? And some people will do 2 (e.g. split Bass/Baker).

Someone who has middling grades isn't out of the running, but it's not a great place to be if you're 100% set on Nashville and want a firm jerb.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:22 am

Frost Brown Todd just merged with MG and is expanding. You might want to take a shot there. Also why aren't you networking like crazy? Go to the local bar meeting and events and make some connections. Maybe talk to MBA about which grads are lawyers locally and see if you can meet with them. Same for Belmont.
If you're into classical music, a FBT senior associate just created the Staccato club at the local symphony? (not sure about the name) for young professionals, a good number of whom are lawyers. Join that.
You're not dead above median, but actually knowing people would go a long way. DO either of your parents work in/with the legal community?
If you hustle there's no reason you can't land an internship with your grades. If you don't hustle, then there's a good chance you end up with nothing.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:07 pm

Nashville was very brutal last year.

I'm sure you've already checked NALP, but to put it in perspective - # of SAs Nash firms claim they have this summer:

BABC - 14 (OCI recruiter said almost all were 1L invite backs - feel like I remember him saying 11 of 14 were)
Dickinson - 1
FBT - 1 (though they've come out that they want to add around 25 more attorneys over the next 5 years)
H3M - No class
Miller d/b/a Butler Snow - 3 (though I think there are more as I think my school put at least 2 there)
Stites - 1 (not sure how Stites Nash is but if its anything like Stites elsewhere - no go without dem grades)
BD - Somewhere around 15?
BBS - About 16 in Nash? (mostly Vandy as I recall - but again, dem grades, dat quick wit)
Waller - 3L thing
Adams & Reese - 3 in Nash?
Gideon - Not sure - lit

Then you have some of the other non-NALP firms like Sherrard, Neal & Harwell, Manier, Walker Tipps, LWDN, LKKW, Ortale, White & Reasor that all probably take 1-2, max 3 SAs if they have a class - plus most are lit based.

All in all a cap around 70? Just brutal.

Then you add Vandy, UT, Memphis, UVA, UNC, Emory, UGA, GA State, Cumberland, Mercer, Bama, UK, Ole Miss all as schools with people that likely have ties or find Nashville to be an attractive legal market/place to live. Yes some schools feed better (Vandy by far the biggest share, then its like UT, UVA, UGA, Emory, Cumberland per Martindale) but you also have to factor in the very top 1-3% at some of the lesser schools that will get a shot. Then, don't forget about some of the other T6 that may have people from the Nashville area looking to come back down. I know BBS was talking about a HLSer that had a CB.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Nashville was very brutal last year.

I'm sure you've already checked NALP, but to put it in perspective - # of SAs Nash firms claim they have this summer:

BABC - 14 (OCI recruiter said almost all were 1L invite backs - feel like I remember him saying 11 of 14 were)
Dickinson - 1
FBT - 1 (though they've come out that they want to add around 25 more attorneys over the next 5 years)
H3M - No class
Miller d/b/a Butler Snow - 3 (though I think there are more as I think my school put at least 2 there)
Stites - 1 (not sure how Stites Nash is but if its anything like Stites elsewhere - no go without dem grades)
BD - Somewhere around 15?
BBS - About 16 in Nash? (mostly Vandy as I recall - but again, dem grades, dat quick wit)
Waller - 3L thing
Adams & Reese - 3 in Nash?
Gideon - Not sure - lit

Then you have some of the other non-NALP firms like Sherrard, Neal & Harwell, Manier, Walker Tipps, LWDN, LKKW, Ortale, White & Reasor that all probably take 1-2, max 3 SAs if they have a class - plus most are lit based.

All in all a cap around 70? Just brutal.


Pretty much agree with this.

You forgot Baker Donelson, but they generally are grade sensitive.

BABC is almost all invites back. And their 1L SAs had awesome grades from Vandy at least.

Bass this year is I think 10-12, of which a couple are 1Ls i heard. So less than 16.

I think Walker Tipps just had 1 this summer

Sherrard wants DEM GRADES, and also invites back 1Ls

Neal and Harwell can't be more that 3, and they hired people with some solid grades

And who knows what the hell's gonna happen with Butler Snow. Miller Martin used to be good for like 2 or 3.

So my 30 estimate was low (didn't realized BABC had that many), but it's still not good. I don't think it's 70. I looked at my last year estimate and it was like 50-60 odd.

edit: just realized you did have Baker
Last edited by rad lulz on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:24 pm

So if someone wanted Nashville but didn't do the 1L SA there are they out of luck? Born and raised in TN and going to one of D/V now, but decided to do a judicial internship in TN for the summer instead of going the firm route. CSO hasn't been very helpful on the Nashville front.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So if someone wanted Nashville but didn't do the 1L SA there are they out of luck? Born and raised in TN and going to one of D/V now, but decided to do a judicial internship in TN for the summer instead of going the firm route. CSO hasn't been very helpful on the Nashville front.

Nope. Not out of luck. There are a few firms who do them (Sherrard and BABC immediately come to mind as people who do), but Bass and Baker don't, or at least a substantial portion of their class isn't. Not sure about some of the other ones. It's tricky because a firm like H3GM will just hire as needed.

Worth bidding on Nashville for you, obviously, but if you just want a firm job anywhere, better toss the lion's share of your high bids to NYC. Not that many Nash firms will be at your OCI anyway, I bet. Hell, I think even at Vandy, not even half the firms on the list above were there I don't think (though all the big hirers were).

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:
fatduck wrote:romo, just curious, did you have better luck reaching out to younger associates/recent grads or more senior associates/partners?

Generally younger associates. Probably because 1) they are more sympathetic to us and can remember the job hunt, 2) they haven't been hounded by law students looking for jobs for decades, and 3) they may be busy, but they probably have less important shit on their plates, if that makes sense.

What I usually did was look for alumni from my school, and then look at their picture and judge whether or not they look "nice." Very scientific approach.


This wasn't necessarily true for me. I about an equal response rate, but I guess Houston isn't a huge destination for Michigan grads. Associates have been better to get an idea of the firm while partners have been better telling me how to make myself attractive at interviews. Don't sweat it if you only meet with a couple because they all pretty much say the same things.

Make sure you ask what the firms' you are considering particular strengths are. It isn't always evident from their websites and Chambers.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:59 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Pretty much agree with this.

You forgot Baker Donelson, but they generally are grade sensitive.

BABC is almost all invites back. And their 1L SAs had awesome grades from Vandy at least.

Bass this year is I think 10-12, of which a couple are 1Ls i heard. So less than 16.

I think Walker Tipps just had 1 this summer

Sherrard wants DEM GRADES, and also invites back 1Ls

Neal and Harwell can't be more that 3, and they hired people with some solid grades

And who knows what the hell's gonna happen with Butler Snow. Miller Martin used to be good for like 2 or 3.

So my 30 estimate was low (didn't realized BABC had that many), but it's still not good. I don't think it's 70. I looked at my last year estimate and it was like 50-60 odd.

edit: just realized you did have Baker


Anon that you quoted -

Yeah, my cap of 70 was a very generous estimate as 1) I'm unsure about the smaller firms that look for 1-2 SAs max or don't even do OCI and 2) I overestimated BBS, which makes me feel just slightly better about getting the shaft when I thought I was in like flynn.

Good to hear about BABC - I think then that they were looking for no more than 4 SAs through OCI that weren't 1L invite backs - stupid low for a firm their size in Nash for the 2L market

I think you are right about Walker Tipps at 1 - max of 2 and very high grades

Sherrard has a OCI cutoff of T10%

Don't know anyone at Neal & Harwell but sounds right

I would think Butler Snow will be good for the 3-6 now that they gobbled up Miller (they're good with a couple at their other offices like Memphis)

Baker could even be somewhere from 9-12

So, on the low end, 40 to 45 wouldn't be shocking.

I think I had in the low 50s as my 2011 summer #s going through OCI.

FWIW I had great grades to place into Nashville, great interviewer, no journal, several callbacks, ties to the city - got shut out.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Pretty much agree with this.

You forgot Baker Donelson, but they generally are grade sensitive.

BABC is almost all invites back. And their 1L SAs had awesome grades from Vandy at least.

Bass this year is I think 10-12, of which a couple are 1Ls i heard. So less than 16.

I think Walker Tipps just had 1 this summer

Sherrard wants DEM GRADES, and also invites back 1Ls

Neal and Harwell can't be more that 3, and they hired people with some solid grades

And who knows what the hell's gonna happen with Butler Snow. Miller Martin used to be good for like 2 or 3.

So my 30 estimate was low (didn't realized BABC had that many), but it's still not good. I don't think it's 70. I looked at my last year estimate and it was like 50-60 odd.

edit: just realized you did have Baker


Anon that you quoted -

Yeah, my cap of 70 was a very generous estimate as 1) I'm unsure about the smaller firms that look for 1-2 SAs max or don't even do OCI and 2) I overestimated BBS, which makes me feel just slightly better about getting the shaft when I thought I was in like flynn.

Good to hear about BABC - I think then that they were looking for no more than 4 SAs through OCI that weren't 1L invite backs - stupid low for a firm their size in Nash for the 2L market

I think you are right about Walker Tipps at 1 - max of 2 and very high grades

Sherrard has a OCI cutoff of T10%

Don't know anyone at Neal & Harwell but sounds right

I would think Butler Snow will be good for the 3-6 now that they gobbled up Miller (they're good with a couple at their other offices like Memphis)

Baker could even be somewhere from 9-12

So, on the low end, 40 to 45 wouldn't be shocking.

I think I had in the low 50s as my 2011 summer #s going through OCI.

FWIW I had great grades to place into Nashville, great interviewer, no journal, several callbacks, ties to the city - got shut out.

Yeah good to see we're on the same page. It's hard to get info about Nashville.

The only thing about Butler Snow was that they had like 2 people in the Franklin office. So they're still probably only about 40. Miller Martin had 58 before the split.

Also worth noting is that some people split 2 Nashville firms (like the Bass/Baker split I mentioned above)

Also you gotta have the personality for some of these firms. The people I know at Bass are generally fratty/southern, for example.

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Re: I want Nashville

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:15 pm

rad lulz wrote:Also you gotta have the personality for some of these firms. The people I know at Bass are generally fratty/southern, for example.


Yes, and then maybe a little bit on the nerdy/awkward side for Baker.




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