How is the job hunt going for people at TT, TTT, TTTTs? Forum

[romothesavior]

Here's an interesting idea: maybe try to work and get experience in the real world before law school and build connections that will lead to future job(s) regardless of where you end up going?

...

Source: kid who graduated in 2009 and has worked as a paralegal at NYC big law firms that have told me to come back when I'm a 2L to talk to them.

lol @ you lecturing people on the strength of your sweet paralegal gig

if you go back as a 2L w/o the grades they won't give a shit about you, they just want you to remember them fondly in case you turn out to be a baller candidate

+1. Iceicebaby, your post is downright ridiculous. Go to some TTT and get mediocre grades and they won't even let you back in to clean the toilets.

[romothesavior]

A law practice is the easiest business to open.

Take a look in the yellow pages and learn why your post is stupid.

edit: I'll do the work for you. I just looked on Martindale, and for the St. Louis metro area, there are well over 500 law firms under 10 people, and hundreds of solo offices.

So yes, strike out and take your wealth of experience and business acumen and open a solo shop! Brilliant idea. Everyone is BIGTRAFFICDEFENSESECURE!

[legaleagle9]

A law practice is the easiest business to open.

Take a look in the yellow pages and learn why your post is stupid.

edit: I'll do the work for you. I just looked on Martindale, and for the St. Louis metro area, there are well over 500 law firms under 10 people, and hundreds of solo offices.

So yes, strike out and take your wealth of experience and business acumen and open a solo shop! Brilliant idea.

so you think all successful lawyers only work in BigLaw and corporate law type firms? LOL @ yourself. Yeah it takes hard work, determination, and the true desire to succeed.

[romothesavior]

so you think all successful lawyers only work in BigLaw and corporate law type firms?

Straw man argument is made of straw.

Also, you're abusing the anon feature. If you're going to lecture all of us about how easy starting a solo shop is, at least stand by your comments.

[Anonymous User]

so you think all successful lawyers only work in BigLaw and corporate law type firms?

Straw man argument is made of straw.

Also, you're abusing the anon feature. If you're going to lecture all of us about how easy starting a solo shop is, at least stand by your comments.

How is this straw man? I'm stating a necessary fact deducted by what you have said. Opening your own "shitlaw" firm and working in biglaw/corporate environment are the two ways to reach massive monetary success in the legal profession. By laughing at the suggestion of going solo, provided said person is competent enough(which is an obvious prerequisite), you are saying that the only other way to reach real success(as perceived by the general public) is big firms/big law/corporate type environments(you get the picture).

I see your straw man, and I raise you a disjunctive argument .

[romothesavior]

so you think all successful lawyers only work in BigLaw and corporate law type firms?

Straw man argument is made of straw.

Also, you're abusing the anon feature. If you're going to lecture all of us about how easy starting a solo shop is, at least stand by your comments.

How is this straw man? I'm stating a necessary fact deducted by what you have said. Opening your own "shitlaw" firm and working in biglaw/corporate environment are the two ways to reach massive monetary success in the legal profession. By laughing at the suggestion of going solo, provided said person is competent enough(which is an obvious prerequisite), you are saying that the only other way to reach real success(as perceived by the general public) is big firms/big law/corporate type environments(you get the picture).

I see your straw man, and I raise you a disjunctive argument .

Yeah... except for the part where I didn't say any of that. You literally just made up a whole bunch of stuff and attributed it to me.

I never said opening a solo practice = shitlaw.
I never laughed at the suggestion of going solo. I laughed at the idea that it is easy for everyone to do it coming straight out of law school.
I never said that the only ways to make money are solo practice or big firms. The best money of all is probably in plaintiff's work.
I never said that success as a lawyer = making lot of money. Tons of successful lawyers have rewarding jobs that don't make them a lot of money.

The only point of my response to you was to ridicule you for saying opening a law firm is easy and just about anyone can do it. You did a fantastic job of just making stuff up. Bravo.

[Anonymous User]

so you think all successful lawyers only work in BigLaw and corporate law type firms?

Straw man argument is made of straw.

Also, you're abusing the anon feature. If you're going to lecture all of us about how easy starting a solo shop is, at least stand by your comments.

How is this straw man? I'm stating a necessary fact deducted by what you have said. Opening your own "shitlaw" firm and working in biglaw/corporate environment are the two ways to reach massive monetary success in the legal profession. By laughing at the suggestion of going solo, provided said person is competent enough(which is an obvious prerequisite), you are saying that the only other way to reach real success(as perceived by the general public) is big firms/big law/corporate type environments(you get the picture).

I see your straw man, and I raise you a disjunctive argument .

Yeah... except for the part where I didn't say any of that. You literally just made up a whole bunch of stuff and attributed it to me.

What more needs to be said on your part? I am stating myself(not from your mouth), that the two ways to massive success in the legal profession are opening your own practice, or working for a non shit law firm, such as big law/in house/etc. Do you disagree? I would love for you to argue this. Now. If that first premise is true, and you are implying that the notion of opening your own firm and gaining massive success is laughable, then we are left with one option: biglaw/in house/non-shit associate.

Unless you can find a fallacy in my statement about success in the legal profession exclusively through the two options which I have presented, then everything you have said implies everything I have accused you of implying.

[legaleagle9]

so you think all successful lawyers only work in BigLaw and corporate law type firms?

Straw man argument is made of straw.

Also, you're abusing the anon feature. If you're going to lecture all of us about how easy starting a solo shop is, at least stand by your comments.

How is this straw man? I'm stating a necessary fact deducted by what you have said. Opening your own "shitlaw" firm and working in biglaw/corporate environment are the two ways to reach massive monetary success in the legal profession. By laughing at the suggestion of going solo, provided said person is competent enough(which is an obvious prerequisite), you are saying that the only other way to reach real success(as perceived by the general public) is big firms/big law/corporate type environments(you get the picture).

I see your straw man, and I raise you a disjunctive argument .

Yeah... except for the part where I didn't say any of that. You literally just made up a whole bunch of stuff and attributed it to me.

I never said opening a solo practice = shitlaw.
I never laughed at the suggestion of going solo. I laughed at the idea that it is easy for everyone to do it coming straight out of law school.
I never said that the only ways to make money are solo practice or big firms. The best money of all is probably in plaintiff's work.
I never said that success as a lawyer = making lot of money. Tons of successful lawyers have rewarding jobs that don't make them a lot of money.

The only point of my response to you was to ridicule you for saying opening a law firm is easy and just about anyone can do it. You did a fantastic job of just making stuff up. Bravo.

I know you never said opening a solo practice is shitlaw, but thats what I am classifying it as. Usually when someone opens a firm it is what TSL considers "shitlaw" such as criminal defense, personal injury, divorce, etc.

Whether you will admit it or not you indirectly laughed at the notion of going solo. Hilarious that you would even deny that.

The type of success we are both talking about is monetary and we both know it.

[romothesavior]

My post:

Take a look in the yellow pages and learn why your post is stupid.

edit: I'll do the work for you. I just looked on Martindale, and for the St. Louis metro area, there are well over 500 law firms under 10 people, and hundreds of solo offices.

So yes, strike out and take your wealth of experience and business acumen and open a solo shop! Brilliant idea.

Your interpretation of my post:

Opening your own "shitlaw" firm and working in biglaw/corporate environment are the two ways to reach massive monetary success in the legal profession. By laughing at the suggestion of going solo, provided said person is competent enough(which is an obvious prerequisite), you are saying that the only other way to reach real success(as perceived by the general public) is big firms/big law/corporate type environments(you get the picture).

Where are you getting this from? My ONLY POINT was that the market for small firms is incredibly oversaturated, and you cannot reasonably expect just any recent graduate with no legal experience, capital, business knowledge, or client base to go out and start a successful firm. Either your reading comprehension skills are atrocious, or you are purposefully twisting my words.

Also, you talk like an insufferable asshat.

[Void]

This argument is dumb and off-topic, and I agree that anonymous user is an asshat. Can we talk about how the job search is going for non-top-law-schools instead of trolling anonymously?

[Grizz]

LOOOOOL at starting your own solo practice right out. Might as well apply for food stamps preemptively.

Also LOOOOOL at anon callouts. Not enough nuts to own your words.

[Anonymous User]

This argument is dumb and off-topic, and I agree that anonymous user is an asshat. Can we talk about how the job search is going for non-top-law-schools instead of trolling anonymously?

I concur.

T3, Top 10%, LR, 4yrs. of law firm experience before law school. Got a mid-law offer from a different firm for my 2L summer.

My school's OCI is a joke--7 firms interview on campus, 10 firms do resume forward. I got 7 screeners at no call-backs from OCI, 0 responses from resume forward, and 0 responses from 70 firms mass mailed. I lucked out on my offer.

[Void]

This argument is dumb and off-topic, and I agree that anonymous user is an asshat. Can we talk about how the job search is going for non-top-law-schools instead of trolling anonymously?

I concur.

T3, Top 10%, LR, 4yrs. of law firm experience before law school. Got a mid-law offer from a different firm for my 2L summer.

My school's OCI is a joke--7 firms interview on campus, 10 firms do resume forward. I got 7 screeners at no call-backs from OCI, 0 responses from resume forward, and 0 responses from 70 firms mass mailed. I lucked out on my offer.

Congrats! How'd you end up with your offer after (apparently?) striking out at OCI and getting no responses from mailing?

[Patriot1208]

pretty irrelevant suggestion for most of the people likely to be reading that.

It wasn't a suggestion really, just a "hey, what did you expect?" kinda thing. I get fed up with people that think that a JD miraculously changes the rules of the working world where experience and results trump most fancy degrees. I'm sorry but honestly, people need to stop telling kids that the key to a good job is having the best numbers. /tirade

Source: kid who graduated in 2009 and has worked as a paralegal at NYC big law firms that have told me to come back when I'm a 2L to talk to them.

Most connections people make in any industry won't lead to a full time legal job offer, this includes being a paralegal.

I'm assuming this was directed at him, not me, right? There are very few times I can think of pre law school experience leading to a full time legal offer. Your f1000 isn't going to hire you after having worked for two years in finance, marketing, sales, etc. Same is true for people in financial services, consulting, etc. And most small business don't have in house counsel. All this work experience may help you in the job ssearch because you have a better resume than a k-jd, but the implication that they are leading to job offers because of a previous relationship is wrong. . Also big law firms aren't hiring forming paralegals unless that paralegal was the type of candidate they'd hire anyways. Maybe if you wortked at a smaller firm pre law school it could be a possibility. But that's about the only possibility I see outside of strong family connections.

[beach_terror]

Everyone mad up in here

[romothesavior]

I would think it would be hard to gauge hiring at a non top-tier school as a current student. As someone else mentioned, few grads of lower tier schools don't go biglaw, and most non biglaw jobs hire post graduation (often after bar passage). It probably isn't uncommon for 80-90% of a third tier's class to graduate unemployed.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

I know 8 EXTREMELY successful lawyers. 7 who opened their own firm, 1 BigLaw Associate. Out of those 8 people, the BigLaw Associate is the least successful.

Successful troll is... successful.

[tttterrific]

I would think it would be hard to gauge hiring at a non top-tier school as a current student. As someone else mentioned, few grads of lower tier schools don't go biglaw, and most non biglaw jobs hire post graduation (often after bar passage). It probably isn't uncommon for 80-90% of a third tier's class to graduate unemployed.

There is also a lot of misinformation. When I graduated, I knew about 10% of my class who was employed (most in state clerkships), about 50% who were desperately searching, and the remaining 40% (including, for example, the E.I.C. of LR) seemed to think that as a 3L, they would be able to just apply to biglaw firms and get jobs, so they weren't worried at all.

[beach_terror]

I would think it would be hard to gauge hiring at a non top-tier school as a current student. As someone else mentioned, few grads of lower tier schools don't go biglaw, and most non biglaw jobs hire post graduation (often after bar passage). It probably isn't uncommon for 80-90% of a third tier's class to graduate unemployed.

There is also a lot of misinformation. When I graduated, I knew about 10% of my class who was employed (most in state clerkships), about 50% who were desperately searching, and the remaining 40% (including, for example, the E.I.C. of LR) seemed to think that as a 3L, they would be able to just apply to biglaw firms and get jobs, so they weren't worried at all.

I know of someone who basically said, I'm not doing OCI - I'll wait until after and pick up the pieces (referring to big firms). I was just like oh yeah, alright bro, good idea.

[romothesavior]

I would think it would be hard to gauge hiring at a non top-tier school as a current student. As someone else mentioned, few grads of lower tier schools don't go biglaw, and most non biglaw jobs hire post graduation (often after bar passage). It probably isn't uncommon for 80-90% of a third tier's class to graduate unemployed.

There is also a lot of misinformation. When I graduated, I knew about 10% of my class who was employed (most in state clerkships), about 50% who were desperately searching, and the remaining 40% (including, for example, the E.I.C. of LR) seemed to think that as a 3L, they would be able to just apply to biglaw firms and get jobs, so they weren't worried at all.

I know of someone who basically said, I'm not doing OCI - I'll wait until after and pick up the pieces (referring to big firms). I was just like oh yeah, alright bro, good idea.

Im sure this is more of a problem at TTTs, but I think it happens even at T1s. I am surprised by many of my classmates' lack of urgency.

[iceicebaby]

Here's an interesting idea: maybe try to work and get experience in the real world before law school and build connections that will lead to future job(s) regardless of where you end up going?

...

Source: kid who graduated in 2009 and has worked as a paralegal at NYC big law firms that have told me to come back when I'm a 2L to talk to them.

lol @ you lecturing people on the strength of your sweet paralegal gig

if you go back as a 2L w/o the grades they won't give a shit about you, they just want you to remember them fondly in case you turn out to be a baller candidate

+1. Iceicebaby, your post is downright ridiculous. Go to some TTT and get mediocre grades and they won't even let you back in to clean the toilets.

OK, maybe I should requalify my statement. It depends on the grades, obviously. But I know for a fact that if I went to a TTT (which I'm not) and did well, they would have me back because I've done good, hard work for them and they like me. I'm not lecturing anyone here, just merely pointing out that a lot of people that can't find jobs don't have the prior legal experience to supplement their education. I don't have facts and figures, frankly I don't care enough to provide them, but this is just simply what I observed from my friends who opted to go straight to law school and did well at T14's. They are struggling because they have little to no legal experience outside of law school. My point is that if you are a college kid that was told that going straight to a T14 law school from undergrad and getting good grades was enough for BigLaw, well surprise, it isn't anymore (if it ever was). I just hope people don't continue to repeat that fallacy because it does a real disservice to people that do not have much exposure to and knowledge of the legal world outside of the classroom.

And please, relax... there is no sense in attacking people here. We're all going through the same process (me later than you all)... you don't need to get pissy. /participation

[romothesavior]

And please, relax... there is no sense in attacking people here. We're all going through the same process (me later than you all)... you don't need to get pissy. /participation

You're a 0L lecturing 2Ls and 3Ls on the job market, and your first posts ITT reek of a "holier than thou" arrogance. Not all that surprising that people didn't take kindly to it.

[iceicebaby]

And please, relax... there is no sense in attacking people here. We're all going through the same process (me later than you all)... you don't need to get pissy. /participation

You're a 0L lecturing 2Ls and 3Ls on the job market, and your first posts ITT reek of a "holier than thou" arrogance. Not all that surprising that people didn't take kindly to it.

Well I apologize. This was not my intent, nor did I say anything about the job market. My annoyance at my friends complaining all the time that they wish they worked before law school must have rang out. Sorry.

P.S. What, exactly, is the point of this thread? Are you hoping to make fun of TT, TTT, and TTTT kids? Are you hoping that you're not the only one getting raped by the job search? Or do you really just want to know if they are doing better than you? It really seems to be here to stroke some egos... but hey whatever, welcome to TLS I guess.

Well now that people are angry (fucking relax, Jesus)... I will stfu.

[Void]

And please, relax... there is no sense in attacking people here. We're all going through the same process (me later than you all)... you don't need to get pissy. /participation

You're a 0L lecturing 2Ls and 3Ls on the job market, and your first posts ITT reek of a "holier than thou" arrogance. Not all that surprising that people didn't take kindly to it.

Well I apologize. This was not my intent, nor did I say anything about the job market. My annoyance at my friends complaining all the time that they wish they worked before law school must have rang out. Sorry.

P.S. What, exactly, is the point of this thread? Are you hoping to make fun of TT, TTT, and TTTT kids? Are you hoping that you're not the only one getting raped by the job search? Or do you really just want to know if they are doing better than you? It really seems to be here to stroke some egos... but hey whatever, welcome to TLS I guess.

You're not even a law student? Even if you were a 1L I would tell you to GTFO. But since you're a 0L, you deserve something special:

[beach_terror]

I would think it would be hard to gauge hiring at a non top-tier school as a current student. As someone else mentioned, few grads of lower tier schools don't go biglaw, and most non biglaw jobs hire post graduation (often after bar passage). It probably isn't uncommon for 80-90% of a third tier's class to graduate unemployed.

There is also a lot of misinformation. When I graduated, I knew about 10% of my class who was employed (most in state clerkships), about 50% who were desperately searching, and the remaining 40% (including, for example, the E.I.C. of LR) seemed to think that as a 3L, they would be able to just apply to biglaw firms and get jobs, so they weren't worried at all.

I know of someone who basically said, I'm not doing OCI - I'll wait until after and pick up the pieces (referring to big firms). I was just like oh yeah, alright bro, good idea.

Im sure this is more of a problem at TTTs, but I think it happens even at T1s. I am surprised by many of my classmates' lack of urgency.

Hey now, I got to a T2 not that there's really any difference between 30-TTT