Firms to love

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snailio
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Firms to love

Postby snailio » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:54 pm

To the extent that it's possible ITE, what are some firms that are worth dying for due to

(1) Danger of going to Associate Satisfaction rankings #1 with a bullet?

(2) Exemplary work environment or reasonable hours etc.

(3) Tons of benefits, etc.

Any other factors to cause one to drool over a particular firm, such as, cool people, super interesting work, profits per partner etc?

For example, …well that’s on you…..GO!

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Gibson?

Cleary?

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:59 pm

Everyone at Chadbourne seems to work 60 hours a week, they still pay market, their offices are in the coolest building in NYC IMHO, and everyone is bubbly.

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:00 pm

A good metric to look at is firm turnover rate. It is a well-known fact that large firm attrition is high, so it certainly says something if a firm is able to keep people from leaving. It is usually reflective of an environment that people wish to remain in (though ITE, one also has to consider that people are afraid to leave jobs for fear of the job search process, but that would affect turnover across the board, and the relative amounts would likely remain similar). Ropes and Gray seemed to have a very low turnover rate, as did Patton Boggs. I don't recall off the top of my head the other firms with particularly low turnover.

ruski
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Re: Firms to love

Postby ruski » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Everyone at Chadbourne seems to work 60 hours a week, they still pay market, their offices are in the coolest building in NYC IMHO, and everyone is bubbly.


heard something similar to this as well. but they also no-offered summer associates, deffered all classes, revoked offers to some deferred associates, cut salaries (then later reinstated market pay). does not seem like the most stable firm. but if we can agree the worst is behind us may not be a bad place for those looking for lifestyle firms

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Obligatory law student love of all things Sidley

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Blindmelon
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Obligatory law student love of all things Sidley


Never understood this. Their NY office is a nightmare.

Love Nutter.

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gotmilk?
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Re: Firms to love

Postby gotmilk? » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A good metric to look at is firm turnover rate. It is a well-known fact that large firm attrition is high, so it certainly says something if a firm is able to keep people from leaving. It is usually reflective of an environment that people wish to remain in (though ITE, one also has to consider that people are afraid to leave jobs for fear of the job search process, but that would affect turnover across the board, and the relative amounts would likely remain similar). Ropes and Gray seemed to have a very low turnover rate, as did Patton Boggs. I don't recall off the top of my head the other firms with particularly low turnover.


Where are there statistics on turnover rate?

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Cupidity
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Cupidity » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:01 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Obligatory law student love of all things Sidley


Never understood this. Their NY office is a nightmare.

Love Nutter.


Plz tell them to hire me?

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Old Gregg
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:02 pm

I've seen a lot of people have irrational love for some firms. Gibson, Cleary, Ropes, and a few others come to mind. The problem is that I know plenty of miserable people at all of these firms, and they're all really not that good.

If you're looking for a lifestyle or friendly firm, you're not going to find it in NYC. Just accept that fact and move on. These associate surveys are humorous, mostly because people take them so seriously despite the low response rate. Anyhow, it's absolutely humorous and almost disgustingly predictable how summer associates who were wide eyed and so happy about their firms transformed into miserable lawyers so quickly. Frankly, I prefer the firm that doesn't do the good ol' bait-and-switch and is honest about what associates are in for.

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:03 pm

gotmilk? wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A good metric to look at is firm turnover rate. It is a well-known fact that large firm attrition is high, so it certainly says something if a firm is able to keep people from leaving. It is usually reflective of an environment that people wish to remain in (though ITE, one also has to consider that people are afraid to leave jobs for fear of the job search process, but that would affect turnover across the board, and the relative amounts would likely remain similar). Ropes and Gray seemed to have a very low turnover rate, as did Patton Boggs. I don't recall off the top of my head the other firms with particularly low turnover.


Where are there statistics on turnover rate?

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Cupidity
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Cupidity » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:04 pm

Cupidity wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Obligatory law student love of all things Sidley


Never understood this. Their NY office is a nightmare.

Love Nutter.


Plz tell them to hire me?


At my interview I said, "I usually ask firms what the quality of life is like at the office, but given your outstanding track record, I think I'd like to ask you what you think is the biggest factor in your firms awesomeness."

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gotmilk?
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Re: Firms to love

Postby gotmilk? » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
gotmilk? wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A good metric to look at is firm turnover rate. It is a well-known fact that large firm attrition is high, so it certainly says something if a firm is able to keep people from leaving. It is usually reflective of an environment that people wish to remain in (though ITE, one also has to consider that people are afraid to leave jobs for fear of the job search process, but that would affect turnover across the board, and the relative amounts would likely remain similar). Ropes and Gray seemed to have a very low turnover rate, as did Patton Boggs. I don't recall off the top of my head the other firms with particularly low turnover.


Where are there statistics on turnover rate?


?? Did you mean to post something?

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:40 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Obligatory law student love of all things Sidley


Never understood this. Their NY office is a nightmare.

Love Nutter.


can you expand on this?

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:53 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:I've seen a lot of people have irrational love for some firms. Gibson, Cleary, Ropes, and a few others come to mind. The problem is that I know plenty of miserable people at all of these firms, and they're all really not that good.

If you're looking for a lifestyle or friendly firm, you're not going to find it in NYC. Just accept that fact and move on. These associate surveys are humorous, mostly because people take them so seriously despite the low response rate. Anyhow, it's absolutely humorous and almost disgustingly predictable how summer associates who were wide eyed and so happy about their firms transformed into miserable lawyers so quickly. Frankly, I prefer the firm that doesn't do the good ol' bait-and-switch and is honest about what associates are in for.


What about Gibson in CA or Ropes in Boston? Are those offices somewhat more deserving of their irrational fan base?

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Old Gregg
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Old Gregg » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I've seen a lot of people have irrational love for some firms. Gibson, Cleary, Ropes, and a few others come to mind. The problem is that I know plenty of miserable people at all of these firms, and they're all really not that good.

If you're looking for a lifestyle or friendly firm, you're not going to find it in NYC. Just accept that fact and move on. These associate surveys are humorous, mostly because people take them so seriously despite the low response rate. Anyhow, it's absolutely humorous and almost disgustingly predictable how summer associates who were wide eyed and so happy about their firms transformed into miserable lawyers so quickly. Frankly, I prefer the firm that doesn't do the good ol' bait-and-switch and is honest about what associates are in for.


What about Gibson in CA or Ropes in Boston? Are those offices somewhat more deserving of their irrational fan base?


Sounds more plausible.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:57 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:I've seen a lot of people have irrational love for some firms. Gibson, Cleary, Ropes, and a few others come to mind. The problem is that I know plenty of miserable people at all of these firms, and they're all really not that good.

If you're looking for a lifestyle or friendly firm, you're not going to find it in NYC. Just accept that fact and move on. These associate surveys are humorous, mostly because people take them so seriously despite the low response rate. Anyhow, it's absolutely humorous and almost disgustingly predictable how summer associates who were wide eyed and so happy about their firms transformed into miserable lawyers so quickly. Frankly, I prefer the firm that doesn't do the good ol' bait-and-switch and is honest about what associates are in for.


What about lifestyle/friendly firms in DC? Is finding one just as unlikely, or is there any truth to the rumor that hours down there tend to be lower than in NYC?

If such DC firms exist, anyone have thoughts on which ones they are?

Anonymous User
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I've seen a lot of people have irrational love for some firms. Gibson, Cleary, Ropes, and a few others come to mind. The problem is that I know plenty of miserable people at all of these firms, and they're all really not that good.

If you're looking for a lifestyle or friendly firm, you're not going to find it in NYC. Just accept that fact and move on. These associate surveys are humorous, mostly because people take them so seriously despite the low response rate. Anyhow, it's absolutely humorous and almost disgustingly predictable how summer associates who were wide eyed and so happy about their firms transformed into miserable lawyers so quickly. Frankly, I prefer the firm that doesn't do the good ol' bait-and-switch and is honest about what associates are in for.


What about lifestyle/friendly firms in DC? Is finding one just as unlikely, or is there any truth to the rumor that hours down there tend to be lower than in NYC?

If such DC firms exist, anyone have thoughts on which ones they are?



I think they definitely exist and that DC firms tend to have lower hours in general. Off the top of my head, Covington, Arnold & Porter, and Wiley Rein have pretty good hours.

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Grizz
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Grizz » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:59 pm

Whatever firm gives me an offer, I will give them unconditional and unfailing love.

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Bobby Dazzler
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Re: Firms to love

Postby Bobby Dazzler » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:09 am

Grizz wrote:Whatever firm gives me an offer, I will give them unconditional and unfailing love.

+1

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:16 am

Cleary - really? I had the most horrible lunch with two utterly miserable associates there during my CB. Left there feeling awful about QOL prospects, turned down offer.

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Re: Firms to love

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:40 am

i love wachtell

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englawyer
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Re: Firms to love

Postby englawyer » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:03 am

When posting a thread like this, consider the following article:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/03/26/thr ... ohn-quinn/

"Well, first of all, I think that many of them are in a tough spot. Looking around at large firms isn’t easy these days because the students cannot be sure which firms are going to be around when they graduate. You can look at published numbers, which give a sense as to which firms are more or less profitable, but generally speaking, there’s not a lot much more to go on. Law firms aren’t exactly known for their transparency.

I also tell students that places known for their culture — for being friendly and collegial and great places to work — aren’t necessarily the firms that are going to survive. My advice is that if a lawyer tells you his or her law firm is a “lifestyle” firm, you should run in the other direction. Heller Ehrman was known for having great people and talented lawyers, but something got lost in the equation with that firm, the right attention wasn’t paid to the bottom line.

Firms think they can improve a culture by doing things like hosting partner retreats. But I don’t think partner retreats are what hold a firm together. Frankly, what holds a firm together is money. That’s what holds us together. "

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snailio
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Re: Firms to love

Postby snailio » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:24 am

I don't know if I'd take Quinn's opinion on this. Lots of people bypass his firm for those very reasons. Plus that article was written in 2009, the firms that survived and survived well with a decent culture are what I'm talking about.

sebastian0622
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Re: Firms to love

Postby sebastian0622 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:10 am

This is easy: any firm that pays decent but doesn't work you to death. Basically, just a small sliver of firms, most of them probably small offices that fly under the radar and mostly hire laterals.

I don't care how well a firm treats me and how nice their office is, if I'm working 60+ hours per week, I will not be a happy person. I don't see how anyone could be.




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