V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

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dingbat
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby dingbat » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
No, because people in their 30s are more likely to have issues with the lifestyle


First, my bona fides: I'm in my mid 30s, and have been a lawyer for around a decade, split roughly 50-50 between litigating at a V20 firm and doing appellate work for the government, with an AIII clerkship thrown in as well. I'm also married to a non-lawyer prestige professional (think doctor or professor) and have three kids -- we wanted to stop at two, but sometimes there's two blobs on the ultrasound.

Second, the bias against older entry-levels is not a myth. My dad is a senior partner at a 30ish attorney satellite office of a mid-tier firm, and has done a couple of stints as hiring partner. He flat-out told me that they wouldn't hire a first-year over thirty unless they were sure that family wasn't going to be an issue (e.g., someone who is divorced or gay without children). Similarly, he also said that while they are happy to hire younger married women, it's generally assumed that those associates will only be able to work 4-6 years until the second kid comes, with a six month break for the first kid. Of course, my dad is a late 50s/early 60s male who was raised in the south, so his views may not be representative of law firm management as a whole.

Third, and most importantly for this thread, I think that the idea that one cannot balance a biglaw career and a family is wrongheaded, with two caveats. Yes, you work a ton of hours. But you also make a ton of money that you can use to pay someone to watch your children, and once they're in school, you're probably only missing a couple of hours a day compared to a 9-5. If that -- one thing that people forget is that most biglaw attorneys have the mornings with their kids, which is something that someone who has to be at his desk by 8:00 AM doesn't. So yes, you're missing the 6:00-8:00 PM hours that other parents get, but you're also there from 6:30 to 8:30 in the morning when most non-lawyers are commuting.

Caveat 1: If your spouse is a stay-at-home parent, you're probably going to get divorced if you have young children. I almost got divorced when I was billing 2400 a year, and that was pre-kids. My spouse wouldn't last nine months now that we have the gremlins. At some point, when they are taking care of the children and cleaning the house during all waking hours, and their sole "adult" time is basically sitting in front of the TV with you from 9:00-11:00 PM as you scarf down some greasy leftovers or takeaway and try to vege out (read: ignore them) after a twelve hour day, they're going to realize that divorce means one night a week and every other weekend free, and a boyfriend/girlfriend whom they actually get to talk to. Either that, or they go batsh!t crazy, and you're the one who initiates the divorce proceedings. The fact of the matter is that biglaw associate spouses tend to be relatively young and well-educated and have had a career of their own prior to kids -- in other words, probably the least-suited people imaginable to be stuck at home with kids and nothing else from 8:30 AM until bedtime.

Caveat 2: If you both work and have young children, you have a much better chance, but accept it up front that your kids will be raised by nannies/pre-schools. That's not so bad for the kids if you have a quality nanny/pre-school (for our first, we found a great Waldorf school, and for our twins, we hired a wonderful woman whom they now call "second mother"), but the idea that your kids are getting raised by someone else takes some getting used to. Especially for the moms.

This explains it beautifully and more eloquently than I can.

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mr_toad
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby mr_toad » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:10 am

dingbat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
No, because people in their 30s are more likely to have issues with the lifestyle


First, my bona fides: I'm in my mid 30s, and have been a lawyer for around a decade, split roughly 50-50 between litigating at a V20 firm and doing appellate work for the government, with an AIII clerkship thrown in as well. I'm also married to a non-lawyer prestige professional (think doctor or professor) and have three kids -- we wanted to stop at two, but sometimes there's two blobs on the ultrasound.

Second, the bias against older entry-levels is not a myth. My dad is a senior partner at a 30ish attorney satellite office of a mid-tier firm, and has done a couple of stints as hiring partner. He flat-out told me that they wouldn't hire a first-year over thirty unless they were sure that family wasn't going to be an issue (e.g., someone who is divorced or gay without children). Similarly, he also said that while they are happy to hire younger married women, it's generally assumed that those associates will only be able to work 4-6 years until the second kid comes, with a six month break for the first kid. Of course, my dad is a late 50s/early 60s male who was raised in the south, so his views may not be representative of law firm management as a whole.

Third, and most importantly for this thread, I think that the idea that one cannot balance a biglaw career and a family is wrongheaded, with two caveats. Yes, you work a ton of hours. But you also make a ton of money that you can use to pay someone to watch your children, and once they're in school, you're probably only missing a couple of hours a day compared to a 9-5. If that -- one thing that people forget is that most biglaw attorneys have the mornings with their kids, which is something that someone who has to be at his desk by 8:00 AM doesn't. So yes, you're missing the 6:00-8:00 PM hours that other parents get, but you're also there from 6:30 to 8:30 in the morning when most non-lawyers are commuting.

Caveat 1: If your spouse is a stay-at-home parent, you're probably going to get divorced if you have young children. I almost got divorced when I was billing 2400 a year, and that was pre-kids. My spouse wouldn't last nine months now that we have the gremlins. At some point, when they are taking care of the children and cleaning the house during all waking hours, and their sole "adult" time is basically sitting in front of the TV with you from 9:00-11:00 PM as you scarf down some greasy leftovers or takeaway and try to vege out (read: ignore them) after a twelve hour day, they're going to realize that divorce means one night a week and every other weekend free, and a boyfriend/girlfriend whom they actually get to talk to. Either that, or they go batsh!t crazy, and you're the one who initiates the divorce proceedings. The fact of the matter is that biglaw associate spouses tend to be relatively young and well-educated and have had a career of their own prior to kids -- in other words, probably the least-suited people imaginable to be stuck at home with kids and nothing else from 8:30 AM until bedtime.

Caveat 2: If you both work and have young children, you have a much better chance, but accept it up front that your kids will be raised by nannies/pre-schools. That's not so bad for the kids if you have a quality nanny/pre-school (for our first, we found a great Waldorf school, and for our twins, we hired a wonderful woman whom they now call "second mother"), but the idea that your kids are getting raised by someone else takes some getting used to. Especially for the moms.

This explains it beautifully and more eloquently than I can.


This was very useful. Thanks.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
No, because people in their 30s are more likely to have issues with the lifestyle


Second, the bias against older entry-levels is not a myth. My dad is a senior partner at a 30ish attorney satellite office of a mid-tier firm, and has done a couple of stints as hiring partner. He flat-out told me that they wouldn't hire a first-year over thirty unless they were sure that family wasn't going to be an issue (e.g., someone who is divorced or gay without children). Similarly, he also said that while they are happy to hire younger married women, it's generally assumed that those associates will only be able to work 4-6 years until the second kid comes, with a six month break for the first kid. Of course, my dad is a late 50s/early 60s male who was raised in the south, so his views may not be representative of law firm management as a whole.


I'm going to be 40 when I graduate, but I'm divorced AND will have raised all my kids and sent them off to college by then. My question is how do I get that across to interviewers (so they know that family life won't be an issue) without actually coming right out and saying so? Or should I just tell them this? My concern is that because I happen to look much younger than I am and because I started my family at a very young age, interviewers might assume that I am either in the middle of raising a family or will plan to start one after getting hired when, in fact, I'll have nothing tying me down whatsoever.

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fatduck
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby fatduck » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I feel like everyone here is asking some variation of the same question: what are my chances, and what's your grade cut off for my school?

Give it a rest,


you can be a real douche sometimes. this is a very helpful thread. And people's chances are a very real concern, as they should be.

douche or not, a lot of the questions (at least recently) are either unanswerable or easily answerable with simple research. i'm honestly surprised OP hasn't given up already.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 am

fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I feel like everyone here is asking some variation of the same question: what are my chances, and what's your grade cut off for my school?

Give it a rest,


you can be a real douche sometimes. this is a very helpful thread. And people's chances are a very real concern, as they should be.

douche or not, a lot of the questions (at least recently) are either unanswerable or easily answerable with simple research. i'm honestly surprised OP hasn't given up already.


kindness? patience? not that difficult if you are not a douche.

attractive_NUisance
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby attractive_NUisance » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:23 am

Anon 40 year old: That is great you've raised kids and sent them to college already!

It is hard to give advice about this because of course it is 100% illegal making a hiring decision based on someone's age or family status. Not to say that some people at firms don't do this in some subtle way like the previous commenter's father. Probably should not bring up anything related to age or kids and just stay focused on why you're enthusiastic, well-qualified, and a good fit for the culture. Plenty of people choose to not have kids, some do earlier in life and some later in life, some adopt, etc.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I feel like everyone here is asking some variation of the same question: what are my chances, and what's your grade cut off for my school?

Give it a rest,


you can be a real douche sometimes. this is a very helpful thread. And people's chances are a very real concern, as they should be.

douche or not, a lot of the questions (at least recently) are either unanswerable or easily answerable with simple research. i'm honestly surprised OP hasn't given up already.


kindness? patience? not that difficult if you are not a douche.


FWIW, douche or not, I appreciated it

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Old Gregg
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:53 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:douche or not, a lot of the questions (at least recently) are either unanswerable or easily answerable with simple research. i'm honestly surprised OP hasn't given up already.


kindness? patience? not that difficult if you are not a douche.


FWIW, douche or not, I appreciated it


Thx. GTL Law Rev left for basically the same reasons. You shouldn't have to write these guys resumes for them or really answering more questions. I'm almost positive that 9/10 questions can be answered by reading only this thread in its entirety.

delusional
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby delusional » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:54 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
Thx. GTL Law Rev left for basically the same reasons. You shouldn't have to write these guys resumes for them or really answering more questions. I'm almost positive that 9/10 questions can be answered by reading only this thread in its entirety.

And he deleted his posts and blog for that reason too.

apparentlynew
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby apparentlynew » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:56 pm

The simplest explanation that occurred to me for GTL LR leaving is that he got found out or some circumstance arose that made him worried he would be identified, so exeunt GTL LR.

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Old Gregg
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:00 am

I could identify him after the first month of his posting here. A huge reason for his leaving, which he states himself, is the amount of BS questions and repitition.

OP here is offering advice in his spare time. He isn't a career counselor and sure as hell won't divulge his firm's cutoffs (as he explicitly states very early in this thread), so asking these same questions are a waste of everyone's time.

Use OP wisely, or he'll go the way of GTL Law Rev, and TLS will lose yet another valuable poster.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:09 am

Fresh Prince wrote:I could identify him after the first month of his posting here. A huge reason for his leaving, which he states himself, is the amount of BS questions and repitition.

OP here is offering advice in his spare time. He isn't a career counselor and sure as hell won't divulge his firm's cutoffs (as he explicitly states very early in this thread), so asking these same questions are a waste of everyone's time.

Use OP wisely, or he'll go the way of GTL Law Rev, and TLS will lose yet another valuable poster.


The sad thing is that if you created a "biglaw" sticky and a "clerkship" sticky with the basic information for both, you would eliminate 95% of the posts in this subforum.

On one hand, it's great that TLS has significantly improved over the past couple years. I remember back when the c/o '12 was going through OGI (and when they were going through clerkship apps), there was a dearth of information. Now, answers to almost every question are available through searching and, when people are too lazy to search, someone can usually give a pretty informed answer.

On the other hand, people have become incredibly lazy and have abused good resources. As someone who tries to answer clerkship questions, it's become really tiring answering myriad permutations of the same questions. I can't imagine how bad it must have been for GTL since people could PM him their questions as well.

It seems that TLS should strive to actually institutionalize some of this knowledge, and <shock> more strongly encourage people to search for their answer before asking. The value of TLS certainly took quite a hit when GTL left.

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kwais
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby kwais » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I could identify him after the first month of his posting here. A huge reason for his leaving, which he states himself, is the amount of BS questions and repitition.

OP here is offering advice in his spare time. He isn't a career counselor and sure as hell won't divulge his firm's cutoffs (as he explicitly states very early in this thread), so asking these same questions are a waste of everyone's time.

Use OP wisely, or he'll go the way of GTL Law Rev, and TLS will lose yet another valuable poster.


The sad thing is that if you created a "biglaw" sticky and a "clerkship" sticky with the basic information for both, you would eliminate 95% of the posts in this subforum.

On one hand, it's great that TLS has significantly improved over the past couple years. I remember back when the c/o '12 was going through OGI (and when they were going through clerkship apps), there was a dearth of information. Now, answers to almost every question are available through searching and, when people are too lazy to search, someone can usually give a pretty informed answer.

On the other hand, people have become incredibly lazy and have abused good resources. As someone who tries to answer clerkship questions, it's become really tiring answering myriad permutations of the same questions. I can't imagine how bad it must have been for GTL since people could PM him their questions as well.

It seems that TLS should strive to actually institutionalize some of this knowledge, and <shock> more strongly encourage people to search for their answer before asking. The value of TLS certainly took quite a hit when GTL left.


This is wildly over-dramatic. I think OP is a big boy/girl and has clearly been answering the questions that they are interested in answering.
What degrades the TLS community more than repetitive questions are these random rules suggested by crusty old posters who already know the answers to questions. It's nothing but bullying. Sometimes people find a thread that is current and want to join with a question that is on their mind. Who cares if its been asked before? This is a thread in some corner of the vast internet, not the national dialogue.
Just relax and let OP determine the rules of his/her thread. You guys seem to know the answer to all these questions, so what are you doing in here anyway?

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:29 am

.
Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Old Gregg
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:30 am

ajax adonis wrote:Why don't you just let him decide for himself?

He already did.

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Old Gregg
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:I could identify him after the first month of his posting here. A huge reason for his leaving, which he states himself, is the amount of BS questions and repitition.

OP here is offering advice in his spare time. He isn't a career counselor and sure as hell won't divulge his firm's cutoffs (as he explicitly states very early in this thread), so asking these same questions are a waste of everyone's time.

Use OP wisely, or he'll go the way of GTL Law Rev, and TLS will lose yet another valuable poster.


The sad thing is that if you created a "biglaw" sticky and a "clerkship" sticky with the basic information for both, you would eliminate 95% of the posts in this subforum.

On one hand, it's great that TLS has significantly improved over the past couple years. I remember back when the c/o '12 was going through OGI (and when they were going through clerkship apps), there was a dearth of information. Now, answers to almost every question are available through searching and, when people are too lazy to search, someone can usually give a pretty informed answer.

On the other hand, people have become incredibly lazy and have abused good resources. As someone who tries to answer clerkship questions, it's become really tiring answering myriad permutations of the same questions. I can't imagine how bad it must have been for GTL since people could PM him their questions as well.

It seems that TLS should strive to actually institutionalize some of this knowledge, and <shock> more strongly encourage people to search for their answer before asking. The value of TLS certainly took quite a hit when GTL left.


This is wildly over-dramatic. I think OP is a big boy/girl and has clearly been answering the questions that they are interested in answering.
What degrades the TLS community more than repetitive questions are these random rules suggested by crusty old posters who already know the answers to questions. It's nothing but bullying. Sometimes people find a thread that is current and want to join with a question that is on their mind. Who cares if its been asked before? This is a thread in some corner of the vast internet, not the national dialogue.
Just relax and let OP determine the rules of his/her thread. You guys seem to know the answer to all these questions, so what are you doing in here anyway?


Nah, what degrades this community the most is abuse of the anonymous feature.

ajaxconstructions
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby ajaxconstructions » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:34 am

Prince, stop shitting up this thread.

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Old Gregg
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:41 am

ajaxconstructions wrote:Prince, stop shitting up this thread.


I've already made my point, so I'm done.

To contribute more substantially, I'll say this: It takes an awfully self centered view of yourself to think that attorney who literally meets hundreds of law students every day of OCI will remember your comma placement on your resume, or some line on your resume, or even what your name is, or even think for more than 10 seconds about you after your interview.

And that's 90% of the questions here answered. Unless you do something remarkably egregious or remarkably spectacular, no one will care or remember. And if you have to ask, then odds are it isn't in one of those two categories.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:The value of TLS certainly took quite a hit when GTL left.


It probably did, but it's not like he was going to post on the internet forever. It's also not like another clerk with great info won't come along. Before clerkship scramble, there was clerkship addict. Before clerkship addict, there was something else. When I first found xo, a MU Grad/Kozinski clerk/SCOTUS clerk posted (she posted all this, along with her name, openly). I'm sure she doesn't anymore, but other clerks stepped up to provide info for the next cycle.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
The sad thing is that if you created a "biglaw" sticky and a "clerkship" sticky with the basic information for both, you would eliminate 95% of the posts in this subforum.

On one hand, it's great that TLS has significantly improved over the past couple years. I remember back when the c/o '12 was going through OGI (and when they were going through clerkship apps), there was a dearth of information. Now, answers to almost every question are available through searching and, when people are too lazy to search, someone can usually give a pretty informed answer.

On the other hand, people have become incredibly lazy and have abused good resources. As someone who tries to answer clerkship questions, it's become really tiring answering myriad permutations of the same questions. I can't imagine how bad it must have been for GTL since people could PM him their questions as well.

It seems that TLS should strive to actually institutionalize some of this knowledge, and <shock> more strongly encourage people to search for their answer before asking. The value of TLS certainly took quite a hit when GTL left.


I actually made a sticky of that nature for the Admissions forum during my cycle before I was a mod, and it eliminated a lot of questions. I haven't gone through OCI yet, and have had to ask ibtdvorm questions of my own, but if I get bored during 2L (or 3L hahaha) year I'll probably put one of these together. If anybody else has the time (I don't right now) to actually start parsing through these sorts of threads and creating a general FAQ, we'd sticky it.

uchi12
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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby uchi12 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:14 am

Let's all stop the posts that aren't Q/A. This conversation is degrading a very valuable thread and a great service done by the OP.

What started as someone trying to improve the thread's quality quickly turned counterproductive. Enough.


That being said,

What are the benefits usually associated with being an interviewer? How does one apply to be one?

Basically, I want to understand more about my interviewer than what I can find on google (it's just easier to be comfortable when you know where the person on the other side of the table is coming from).

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:39 am

uchi12 wrote:Let's all stop the posts that aren't Q/A. This conversation is degrading a very valuable thread and a great service done by the OP.

What started as someone trying to improve the thread's quality quickly turned counterproductive. Enough.


That being said,

What are the benefits usually associated with being an interviewer? How does one apply to be one?

Basically, I want to understand more about my interviewer than what I can find on google (it's just easier to be comfortable when you know where the person on the other side of the table is coming from).


Benefits aren't much I guess. I don't think people apply; generally if you're known / active in the recruiting program they find you. Usually there's some sort of school tie involved.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Kring345 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:26 am

I follow this thread pretty closely and don't think this was asked (but I asked it in a similar thread):

Everyone always says that business development is key to making partner. What exactly does that mean? Being close with and maintaining current clients? Bringing in new clients? Do they need to be huge companies? I'd imagine most companies that can afford biglaw rates already have representation.

Similarly, should 1st/2nd year associates already be thinking of this? What about students? Obviously grades should be focus, but does it deserve any attention in your eyes?

One of the biggest lessons I've learned in the Marine Corps has been the importance if making oneself relevant/indispensable. I'd business development to be a large part of that process. Agree?

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby itbdvorm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:38 pm

Kring345 wrote:I follow this thread pretty closely and don't think this was asked (but I asked it in a similar thread):

Everyone always says that business development is key to making partner. What exactly does that mean? Being close with and maintaining current clients? Bringing in new clients? Do they need to be huge companies? I'd imagine most companies that can afford biglaw rates already have representation.

Similarly, should 1st/2nd year associates already be thinking of this? What about students? Obviously grades should be focus, but does it deserve any attention in your eyes?

One of the biggest lessons I've learned in the Marine Corps has been the importance if making oneself relevant/indispensable. I'd business development to be a large part of that process. Agree?


Two real prongs to this as far as I know:

1) Business Maintenance - you're key to a major account. Work for big partners, work on their deals, clients love you, etc.

2) Business Origination - you bring in a huge client.

Some of this is sales, obviously, but much is legal talent, etc. I would say one key is to maintain all of your law school and undergrad relationships as best you can. Never know where people end up.

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Re: V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:43 pm

I graduated a year early from undergrad, went straight through to law school - so I'm definitely the youngest going through OCI at my school. Is this something that I should have on my resume/highlight (in that I graduated with honors from undergrad, and made LR/top 10% in law school even at this young age) or my age something that would make interviewers second-guess me/my maturity/abilities?

Thanks!




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