Just below median at Chicago

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Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:09 pm

So I got one bad grade that brings me down from above median to just below median at 176.9 (no idea how I did so bad in the one class).

My first question is where in the class does that put me? I know they say 177 is the median for each class, and that when considering LRW is curved at 178, the median should be at 177.1. But, I also know that fewer than 50% of each class actually receives a grade below 177. So, does that mean my 176.9 actually places me significantly below the middle 50% of my class?

Next, where/who should I bid on? My home market is very small and selective, so I doubt I would have a chance there. I would prefer to stay in Chicago but I hear Chicago is also tough. I wouldn’t mind New York, but the only time I've seen the city was on a family vacation at the age of 6 or 7. So I have no connection to NYC and would not be able to talk about the city at all.

At this point, I just want to get something out of OCI. Does anyone have any advice on bidding strategy?

fruitjuice
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby fruitjuice » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:16 pm

Although the average grade is higher than 177, percentile only relates to the median. Median is 177.1 so you're right at 50%.

Also, of course less than 50% of class gets below a 177 because some percentage gets a 177 exactly. The split might look like 40% above - 20% at 177 - 40% below

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:35 pm

fruitjuice wrote:Although the average grade is higher than 177, percentile only relates to the median. Median is 177.1 so you're right at 50%.

Also, of course less than 50% of class gets below a 177 because some percentage gets a 177 exactly. The split might look like 40% above - 20% at 177 - 40% below


So do you think a 176.9 would be viewed significantly different than median?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
fruitjuice wrote:Although the average grade is higher than 177, percentile only relates to the median. Median is 177.1 so you're right at 50%.

Also, of course less than 50% of class gets below a 177 because some percentage gets a 177 exactly. The split might look like 40% above - 20% at 177 - 40% below


So do you think a 176.9 would be viewed significantly different than median?

I'm not fruitjuice, but I think you may be around top 60%, as the overall 1L median is probably more like 177.3-177.5. But, I don't think being top 50% versus top 60% is going to make a huge difference. Either way you're in the middle of the pack. Chicago is tough because a lot of the less selective firms in the market also have also had very small class sizes the last few years. A combination of less selective Chicago firms (bid these high as they will be very in demand), along with some bids for NYC firms would probably be the best bet. Also, even if your secondary market is competitive, it's probably still worthwhile to use some of your lower bids on any firms that come to OCI. I've heard that competition is normally pretty low for secondary market interview slots, but this may vary by market.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:22 pm

I too bombed one of my classes this past quarter at UChi, so I commiserate.

As to your question about whether a 176.something would look different from a 177 - I was under the impression that employers just see our transcript with the grades and there is no calculated exact average on it.

Anyone know for sure how it works?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I too bombed one of my classes this past quarter at UChi, so I commiserate.

As to your question about whether a 176.something would look different from a 177 - I was under the impression that employers just see our transcript with the grades and there is no calculated exact average on it.

Anyone know for sure how it works?

There definitely will not be a GPA listed on the transcript, however I believe some firms will calculate GPAs (not during the interview obviously).

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:00 pm

What about a median (177.x) GPA but a significantly higher GPA from spring quarter? I've been out of school a long time and had a 5-7 pt increase since fall quarter. Will firms still consider me at median or take an upward trend into account?

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Emma.
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What about a median (177.x) GPA but a significantly higher GPA from spring quarter? I've been out of school a long time and had a 5-7 pt increase since fall quarter. Will firms still consider me at median or take an upward trend into account?


From talking to 2Ls it sounds like being at or above median gave you a really good shot at a firm job at OCI last year, and if you can spin this into a "look, first quarter was just a transition period, spring was a way better indicator of my abilities" then I think this will be a bonus in interviews. What do I know though, I'm just another 1L. Congrats on what sounds like some great grades this quarter.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What about a median (177.x) GPA but a significantly higher GPA from spring quarter? I've been out of school a long time and had a 5-7 pt increase since fall quarter. Will firms still consider me at median or take an upward trend into account?

Congrats on a successful quarter. When this question has been asked in other threads for different schools, most people believed that grade trends were not important.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:35 pm

To anyone indifferent, I would almost certainly recommend NY to all those near median at Chicago. At least last year, it looked like a median student had much better luck with NY than Chi/DC. There is a large UChi Callback thread from last year somewhere on this board...

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby jaymoney » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:26 am

JollyGreenGiant wrote:There is a large UChi Callback thread from last year somewhere on this board...


viewtopic.php?f=23&t=127861

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:29 pm

Is it safe to say that 176.8-9 is top 60%? I assume it is at least top 2/3, right? Also, are we expected to calculate our GPA and list it on our resume?

Thanks!

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is it safe to say that 176.8-9 is top 60%? I assume it is at least top 2/3, right? Also, are we expected to calculate our GPAs and list it on our resume?

Thanks!


No, no one is allowed to include a GPA on their resume.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:54 pm

Emma. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is it safe to say that 176.8-9 is top 60%? I assume it is at least top 2/3, right? Also, are we expected to calculate our GPAs and list it on our resume?

Thanks!


No, no one is allowed to include a GPA on their resume.



That's great. Does anyone have any idea what the approximate cutoffs might be for top 2/3 and top 60%?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Emma. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is it safe to say that 176.8-9 is top 60%? I assume it is at least top 2/3, right? Also, are we expected to calculate our GPAs and list it on our resume?

Thanks!


No, no one is allowed to include a GPA on their resume.



That's great. Does anyone have any idea what the approximate cutoffs might be for top 2/3 and top 60%?


Anyone have any idea where these cutoffs are?

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Emma.
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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Emma. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is it safe to say that 176.8-9 is top 60%? I assume it is at least top 2/3, right? Also, are we expected to calculate our GPAs and list it on our resume?

Thanks!


No, no one is allowed to include a GPA on their resume.



That's great. Does anyone have any idea what the approximate cutoffs might be for top 2/3 and top 60%?


Anyone have any idea where these cutoffs are?


I think these are really hard to estimate. With the top 20/10/5% we have some data points based on acceptance to LR, Honors, and the K&E Scholar thing. I don't know how to figure out the percentiles below median. Sorry.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:57 pm

Are you sure you're not allowed to put GPA on your resumes? I rechecked the handbook, and it says guessing at rank is verboten, and says that the firm won't calculate GPA for us, but it does not say that calculating GPA yourself and putting it on there is not allowed.

I have a high level of distrust of OCS after last year.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:15 pm

pehaigllleises wrote:Are you sure you're not allowed to put GPA on your resumes? I rechecked the handbook, and it says guessing at rank is verboten, and says that the firm won't calculate GPA for us, but it does not say that calculating GPA yourself and putting it on there is not allowed.

I have a high level of distrust of OCS after last year.


From the OCS handbook:

"Grades: This information will not appear on your resume for the Law School."

I think I saw somewhere else that it was a no-go as well. I'm not sure if it is an official school rule or not though, maybe that is the kind of thing you need to check with AMG about?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:39 pm

I think, to the extent this piece of advice about GPA exists, it is aimed at giving median and below median students a better shot. OCS's goal is not to make you happy. Their goal is to make sure 100% of us are at least flipping burgers at graduation. They know students with good GPAs will get decent jobs somewhere. They don't really care where. They're more concerned with finding median and below GPA students jobs, and that's who they're trying to help. That's not really my problem, though.

I read that part. I don't think it forbids it. It also says legal resumes do not include job objectives. It's not like you're forbidden from putting one on there. And while it expressly forbids guessing at class rank (which, absent K&E Scholar, is always a guess and thus objectively bad), it does not expressly forbid listing a GPA.

I put my GPA on my mass mail applications, to help prevent it from being thrown in the garbage. To the extent they say I can't do that privately, I say they can screw themselves. I get why guessing at rank is bad--you don't want to put things that are not true on your resume. I was wondering if anyone has ever directly said that you can't put your GPA on your resume as a condition of participating in OCI. I've never heard it. I think they want us to think it's forbidden, for the reasons above.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:43 pm

pehaigllleises wrote:I think, to the extent this piece of advice about GPA exists, it is aimed at giving median and below median students a better shot. OCS's goal is not to make you happy. Their goal is to make sure 100% of us are at least flipping burgers at graduation. They know students with good GPAs will get decent jobs somewhere. They don't really care where. They're more concerned with finding median and below GPA students jobs, and that's who they're trying to help. That's not really my problem, though.

I read that part. I don't think it forbids it. It also says legal resumes do not include job objectives. It's not like you're forbidden from putting one on there. And while it expressly forbids guessing at class rank (which, absent K&E Scholar, is always a guess and thus objectively bad), it does not expressly forbid listing a GPA.

I put my GPA on my mass mail applications, to help prevent it from being thrown in the garbage. To the extent they say I can't do that privately, I say they can screw themselves. I get why guessing at rank is bad--you don't want to put things that are not true on your resume. I was wondering if anyone has ever directly said that you can't put your GPA on your resume as a condition of participating in OCI. I've never heard it. I think they want us to think it's forbidden, for the reasons above.


This could well be true, but if I were you I'd want to make sure it isn't actually forbidden before I submitted my resume for OCI. Are you mass-mailing non-OCI firms only? Had any positive responses yet?

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:54 pm

I am a 3L who got a bit burned by OCS last year. Although I wound up with a great 2L SA, I'm not sure they're hiring for a certain specialty group, so I'm applying elsewhere. OCS knew I'd get a job somewhere, and just wanted to move on to the next in line. But given my extremely limited geographical needs and extremely limited practice group preference, my shot at getting the job I want is about as tough as your average student's. I got horrible advice that resulted in me being unable to even get in front of the vast majority of firms that do what I want to do last year.

I started mailing this week for a specialty practice group spot and I have two interviews lined up already, so I'm pretty happy with the results this time around. I've gotten two no's and one "it's too early" as well, but far fewer than I expected.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby Emma. » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:59 pm

pehaigllleises wrote:I am a 3L who got a bit burned by OCS last year. Although I wound up with a great 2L SA, I'm not sure they're hiring for a certain specialty group, so I'm applying elsewhere. OCS knew I'd get a job somewhere, and just wanted to move on to the next in line. But given my extremely limited geographical needs and extremely limited practice group preference, my shot at getting the job I want is about as tough as your average student's. I got horrible advice that resulted in me being unable to even get in front of the vast majority of firms that do what I want to do last year.

I started mailing this week for a specialty practice group spot and I have two interviews lined up already, so I'm pretty happy with the results this time around. I've gotten two no's and one "it's too early" as well, but far fewer than I expected.


Ah, sorry, I think I should have known you weren't a 1L. Good luck with the job hunt, sounds like you're hustling and you'll hook something up without too many problems.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:59 pm

pehaigllleises wrote: I was wondering if anyone has ever directly said that you can't put your GPA on your resume as a condition of participating in OCI. I've never heard it. I think they want us to think it's forbidden, for the reasons above.


A transfer to UChi was expressly told not to put his GPA on the resume. He did so anyway, however, and no consequences followed so I'm guessing they merely discourage the practice.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby pehaigllleises » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:02 pm

dresden doll wrote:
pehaigllleises wrote: I was wondering if anyone has ever directly said that you can't put your GPA on your resume as a condition of participating in OCI. I've never heard it. I think they want us to think it's forbidden, for the reasons above.


A transfer to UChi was expressly told not to put his GPA on the resume. He did so anyway, however, and no consequences followed so I'm guessing they merely discourage the practice.


I am pretty sure we are both talking about our favorite tall smart transfer friend and he's the one who told me I could do put it on there at all, ever. And I probably owe my mass mail success this year (as opposed to getting completely ignored last year) to that bit of info. I hate OCS.

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Re: Just below median at Chicago

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:07 pm

pehaigllleises wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
pehaigllleises wrote: I was wondering if anyone has ever directly said that you can't put your GPA on your resume as a condition of participating in OCI. I've never heard it. I think they want us to think it's forbidden, for the reasons above.


A transfer to UChi was expressly told not to put his GPA on the resume. He did so anyway, however, and no consequences followed so I'm guessing they merely discourage the practice.


I am pretty sure we are both talking about our favorite tall smart transfer friend and he's the one who told me I could do put it on there at all, ever. And I probably owe my mass mail success this year (as opposed to getting completely ignored last year) to that bit of info. I hate OCS.

:) Yes, we probably are talking about the same person.

Honestly, if school wanted to shield the bottom half, they wouldn't have a hair splitting grading system in place to begin with. While I haven't been tempted to list my GPA, I absolutely understand people who do (particularly transfers who tend to be put in a position of having more to prove).

My big problem with OCS is that they're overtly optimistic with people and make them think that grades matter far less than they really do, but it seems this is a common issue across elite law schools in general.




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