More Emory employment transparency

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EmoryThreeL
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More Emory employment transparency

Postby EmoryThreeL » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:53 pm

Emory c/o 2011 did an informal survey on 3L employment data. I really debated about whether to release this information. Then I thought about how law schools have no problem pulling the wool over the eyes of incoming students. They have no problem smiling at you, promising you all the riches in the world while they cash your federal aid checks. Don't worry, take on the debt, it's okay! We're a golden ticket. Here's a shot back at them.

I'm glad 3Ls took the initiative to informally survey the class. I hope this causes many considering law school to take a long, harder look at the situation. I'm not saying don't go. I'm saying just really, really consider it. That's three years of lost income and potential for six figure debt with little to no employment prospects.

I bring you the truth:

Hey fellow 3L classmates,

In response to the recent U.S. News events, the administration claims that, as compared to other law schools, we are too accurate with our reporting for post-grad employment. Since there is no compilation of employment statistics for our class, a few of us decided that we would like to gather that information.

In an effort to satisfy our curiosity and improve transparency, we are trying to gather accurate information. We are asking that you take two minutes to anonymously respond to a five question survey about your employment prospects. Our ONLY motive is to gather information. The ONLY thing that we are going to do with the responses is send them back to 3L class so that we all can get an accurate sense of our class’s employment prospects. Please encourage everyone to fill this out!

This survey is purely a product of student effort and in no way reflects or is affiliated with Emory University School of Law.

We received 184 responses from our class of 217 people, which is an 84.8% response rate. For the first question, whether you have a job lined up after graduation, there is a 7.2% margin of error accounting for the people who didn't respond. For the third and fourth questions its important to note that people were given the opportunity to select more than one response, which definitely occurred.

Just FYI, your margin of error is actually a very impressive 2.81% (at a confidence level of 95%, and assuming perfect random sampling).

7.2% is the maximum margin of error, for an infinite population. Since you guys sampled a large portion of the total population, it needs to be multiplied by a finite population correction factor. FPC = sqrt( (N - n ) / (N - 1)) where N=total population size and n=sample size. Here, FPC=0.39, so the real margin of error is 7.2 * .39 = 2.81%

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Feel free to send this data to Above the Law.

If you think any peer schools are sitting in completely different boats, you have another thing coming. GW, Fordham, BC, BU, ND, WUSTL -- Things are not as the schools would like you to believe. Don't take on massive debt. YS(H) are the only guarantees.

EmoryThreeL
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby EmoryThreeL » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:55 pm

I get that my previous posts were about not working hard enough to get a job. There is truth in that. However, many law schools promise a golden ticket. These results clearly show how there's no golden ticket at Emory.

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Justathought
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Justathought » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:27 pm

.
Last edited by Justathought on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby bk1 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:34 pm

At least from what I'm told, 50% employment at graduation is normal for a regional school where about half the class get their jobs in the 9 month period after graduation. That being said, 15% or so biglaw percentage also seems about right.

So really, none of this data surprises me at all.

EmoryThreeL
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby EmoryThreeL » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:35 pm

Justathought wrote:And wrestle with our conscious, which will lead to these results then being posted on TLS for the entire internet to see.

Very shady tactics. While I'm always happy to see relevant data, it seems as though you used your fellow classmates for your own purpose. This purpose may have noble intentions, but you are the one lacking transparency in this case. You should have informed your classmates that this data might be released to the general public.

I didn't gather the data. I didn't sign a non-disclosure clause before receiving the results. Therefore, your concern is unfounded.

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Grizz
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:37 pm

IBTshitstorm

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Justathought
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Justathought » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:37 pm

EmoryThreeL wrote:
Justathought wrote:And wrestle with our conscious, which will lead to these results then being posted on TLS for the entire internet to see.

Very shady tactics. While I'm always happy to see relevant data, it seems as though you used your fellow classmates for your own purpose. This purpose may have noble intentions, but you are the one lacking transparency in this case. You should have informed your classmates that this data might be released to the general public.

I didn't gather the data. I didn't sign a clause before receiving the results. Therefore, your concern is unfounded.


Oh okay, thought you did gather the data. Scratch that then; you have every right to make it public.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:48 pm

I have to be honest, those numbers look better than I thought they would.

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akili
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby akili » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:48 pm

ResolutePear wrote:I have to be honest, those numbers look better than I thought they would.


+1

FGCUguy123
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby FGCUguy123 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:00 pm

This doesn't surprise me. The "9 month after graduation" stat is more helpful. Imagine this: after 9 months, 100% of the graduating class of that year receives salaries of (and I'm obviously being facetious) $300,000. Now... doesn't it seem irrelevant what the stats were for employment security/salaries at the time of graduation?

spets
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby spets » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:01 pm

This is interesting, thanks.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:02 pm

100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:06 pm

MrAnon wrote:100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.


A lottery with a 1:2 chance of winning something? Sounds great to me.

FGCUguy123
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby FGCUguy123 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:08 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
MrAnon wrote:100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.


A lottery with a 1:2 chance of winning something? Sounds great to me.


^^^Excellent way to put it. +1

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beachbum
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby beachbum » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:09 pm

What the hell goes on over there in Atlanta? I feel like Emory gets way, way more bad press (and mostly from students) than its peers.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:17 pm

FGCUguy123 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
MrAnon wrote:100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.


A lottery with a 1:2 chance of winning something? Sounds great to me.


^^^Excellent way to put it. +1


If only it cost nothing to play. Winning a small firm job is no prize. And lots of folks did not even respond to the survey so the odds of anything are worse than the responses present.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:58 pm

I want to say I do think the 3L did us a service by posting this. I don't share the "law school is a horrendous idea outside the T14" approach believed in by many, but I absolutely think data needs to be seen, and people need to know what they are getting. More to the point in my case, I am personally aware that most PI orgs don't hire until after people actually pass the bar, but it's still sobering to see it displayed like that.

I ran the numbers over on the NALP website, and Emory had 117 employers come to OCI, of which 113 were firms. The school may have suffered due to location and size if firms cut back the number of schools where they recruited. UVA had 449 employers listed as recruiting on their campus, though this is hardly to say or suggest that the Virginians got full employment either. My own school is a lot more populous than Emory, but also in a convenient place for firms to visit (not that a visit guarantees hiring, of course). We had 258 employers listed, 253 of which were firms. Unfortunately, I don't have more recent data than class of 2009, which is here: http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/17281.htm

Law School Transparency makes available older data, broken down conveniently by school: --LinkRemoved-- It's a fantastic movement and a great resource for people thinking about law school who want a sense of what to expect, though I hope they can get more recent numbers.

Know what you are buying. To go to a T30 school, you have to want this, not just as a financial investment. It has to be something you want to do with your life in terms of interest in the material, and there may be sacrifices involved. It may take months or years to find a job, and it may not be the job you thought you wanted. It's a hard truth, but I don't know that it's much different in this field than it is in many others, and if you can do it without too much debt, or have the option of public interest loan forgiveness, it could make sense for you.

As I've said before, I don't have a permanent public interest job lined up for when I graduate (I suspect most people don't at this point), though I have something for next fall now. It's been a bumpy ride at times, but I have no regrets. I personally encourage anyone who has employment data to post it, because better information will help future students and encourage schools to reach out and engage current students.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:03 pm

FGCUguy123 wrote:This doesn't surprise me. The "9 month after graduation' stat is more helpful. Imagine this: after 9 months, 100% of the graduating class of that year receives salaries of (and I'm obviously being facetious) $300,000. Now... doesn't it seem irrelevant what the stats were for employment security/salaries at the time of graduation?



Strongly disagree, it's much less helpful. We basically know where the people who are graduating unemployed are going to end up. The people who get jobs between graduation and nine months will overwhelmingly get small firm and non-legal jobs. I love when people cite the 95% 9 month employed rate schools send USNews as if that means anything at all. A ton of those jobs are shitty, temporary, and non legal. These numbers are objectively terrible.
Last edited by D. H2Oman on Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:05 pm

MrAnon wrote:
FGCUguy123 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
MrAnon wrote:100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.


A lottery with a 1:2 chance of winning something? Sounds great to me.


^^^Excellent way to put it. +1


If only it cost nothing to play. Winning a small firm job is no prize. And lots of folks did not even respond to the survey so the odds of anything are worse than the responses present.


Extrapolation is a dangerous game.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:07 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
MrAnon wrote:100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.


A lottery with a 1:2 chance of winning something? Sounds great to me.

Yeah, seriously. Who wouldn't want to pay $200,000 for a single lottery ticket that has a 50% chance of getting you a job good enough to pay that debt off within 25 years?

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D. H2Oman
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:09 pm

24 people out of 184 getting something out of OCI. I wonder how many were IP or URM......

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gobucks101
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby gobucks101 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:11 pm

MrAnon wrote:
If only it cost nothing to play. Winning a small firm job is no prize. And lots of folks did not even respond to the survey so the odds of anything are worse than the responses present.


Emory sends out about 10 emails a day so I actually am really surprised at good the turnout was. The fact that we get 4 emails a day about what was lost and/or found in Room 5B and another several for random surveys about some student body probably has more to do with it then your random guess.

Omerta
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby Omerta » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:11 pm

beachbum wrote:What the hell goes on over there in Atlanta? I feel like Emory gets way, way more bad press (and mostly from students) than its peers.


I wouldn't consider this bad press, but reality. People have license to bitch all they want, but at least some people are actually DOING things and trying to open administrative transparency. That said, I don't consider any response helpful except for the overall yes/no employment question.
Last edited by Omerta on Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:12 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
MrAnon wrote:100 people whose lives would be better off had they never gone to law school.


A lottery with a 1:2 chance of winning something? Sounds great to me.

Yeah, seriously. Who wouldn't want to pay $200,000 for a single lottery ticket that has a 50% chance of getting you a job good enough to pay that debt off within 25 years?


The answer I really want to give: Well, the world's over in 2012. So whatevs.

That's a bit unfair though. Granted, there will be people who will not get said job - but if 50% of students decided to default on their loans.. then Big Bro, et. al. wouldn't be inclined to continue lending for law school.

MrAnon
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Re: More Emory employment transparancy

Postby MrAnon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:12 pm

Sorry but people with good jobs like to show them off. they don't tend to tune out for employment surveys.

OCI results look absolutely abysmal. (I extend my apologies to any abysses I may have just offended.)
Last edited by MrAnon on Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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