Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

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paulinaporizkova
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby paulinaporizkova » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:53 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.


Also, Rev, do you just come here to laugh at the poor 0L's who will almost certainly be fucked over in the end? Obviously, your law degree worked out for you. Why do you come around and say the chances of it working out for anyone else are morbidly slim?
Last edited by paulinaporizkova on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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General Tso
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby General Tso » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:54 pm

Levin/Dedalus wrote:I feel like this site is going to be your best bet, if you seek quality, "substantiated" information:

--LinkRemoved--


Hastings is among the most transparent schools in CA. Check out Davis (who claimed a 98% employed at graduation rate in 2010 USNWR -- higher than Boalt). Hastings is in the 74th percentile for transparency, Davis is in the 35th.

Davis' transparency score is lower than Chapman and Whittier.

Levin/Dedalus
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Levin/Dedalus » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:02 pm

General Tso wrote:
Levin/Dedalus wrote:I feel like this site is going to be your best bet, if you seek quality, "substantiated" information:

--LinkRemoved--


Hastings is among the most transparent schools in CA. Check out Davis (who claimed a 98% employed at graduation rate in 2010 USNWR -- higher than Boalt). Hastings is in the 74th percentile for transparency, Davis is in the 35th.

Davis' transparency score is lower than Chapman and Whittier.


Right, I feel like if OP wants to do his/her own research, LST shows that, for T20-30, times are tough but not completely apocalyptic. As expected.

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Malcolm8X
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Malcolm8X » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:12 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
haoledugan wrote:As a soon to be 1L who has now committed to 3 years of additional schooling, I have been searching for qualified insight into the current job outlook for recent law grads... I don't think I'm alone here. I would love to see questions answered without the undue sarcasm, snide remarks, and unsubstantiated claims so often a part of the other topics here in TLS Forums.

To start, I would be very interested in hearing from some 2L's, 3L's, and recent grads about their personal experience in finding legal work.


You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You should also know that I'm a snide bitch, but I refrained for this thread because you asked very nicely :)


+1. Another question: What will happen to the 120,000 law school grads that will be in the market before the class of 2014? Do they have priority on the legal market then?

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby paulinaporizkova » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:16 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
haoledugan wrote:Can we disagree without the condescension, please? Thanks

I'm torn. On the one hand, I respect your request for courteous conversation. And I purposely left out some of the snark I otherwise would've included in my last post because of that. But on the other hand, in this, the forum for students and graduates, I do think the students and the graduates get to choose the terms of debate. As was alluded to above, the relentless, unending tide of uninformed (albeit well-meaning) 0L commentary grows tiresome very, very quickly.


Gee, thanks for sparing me. This might be true, but I still feel like you're looking down your nose at us, because, if you really have a COA clerkship, things worked out just fine for you. The truth is, there is not enough information on the OP in general to have anyone give him an accurate reading on how things will be for him.

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Unemployed
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Unemployed » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:18 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.


Also, Rev, do you just come here to laugh at the poor 0L's who will almost certainly be fucked over in the end? Obviously, your law degree worked out for you. Why do you come around and say the chances of it working out for anyone else are morbidly slim?


The truth hurts, but it needs to be said. Who's better suited to send that message than someone actually successful?

Hey-O
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Hey-O » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:23 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:You should consider that "current" outlook will likely not be the same as "future" outlook, especially in a time of uncertainty like the one we're in now. It's a bad time to be graduating from LS RIGHT NOW. Will it be in 2-3 years when you graduate? No one really knows, but chances are things will improve a bit since they already have been improving since the initial crash. How much will they improve? Once again, no one knows. But things will likely be better. Oh, and I'm a 0L, so take it FWIW.

You don't get it, do you? The short-term outlook might improve, or it might get a lot worse, but that's not what really matters. The long(er) term outlook for freshly minted law grads is unquestionably bad, and getting worse. This is a structural matter, and no amount of economic growth can change it. Law firms are getting leaner, clients are demanding more cost-efficiency, and refusing to pay for first year associate work. So lots of discovery jobs and other intro-level stuff is going overseas, or to commoditized law practices. At the same time, the price of a legal education is growing considerably faster than inflation or salaries. Debt loads are getting more oppressive, and interest rates remain high (and may go much higher still--hopefully not, of course). The overall supply of law grades is also rising, thus aggravating the supply/demand mismatch in the law labor market.

I could go on, but won't. The problems with the law economy are substantial, and go well beyond the way the economy is right now. Will an uptick in the general economy help legal hiring? Yes. But it won't solve any of the above, and those things are the real dangers.


I think this is fine and courteous enough. 'The you don't get it do?' is a little condescending but the overall info is spot on. The problem with law school is that for too long too much money lured too many lawyers into the profession. So now there are lots of lawyers and not enough jobs.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:27 pm

Levin/Dedalus wrote:
General Tso wrote:
Levin/Dedalus wrote:I feel like this site is going to be your best bet, if you seek quality, "substantiated" information:

--LinkRemoved--


Hastings is among the most transparent schools in CA. Check out Davis (who claimed a 98% employed at graduation rate in 2010 USNWR -- higher than Boalt). Hastings is in the 74th percentile for transparency, Davis is in the 35th.

Davis' transparency score is lower than Chapman and Whittier.


Right, I feel like if OP wants to do his/her own research, LST shows that, for T20-30, times are tough but not completely apocalyptic. As expected.

LST is great, and I very much support it's mission.

However, don't get too hung up on the data they provide right now in the clearinghouse section. It's class of 2008 data. Very much out of date, ITE. Certainly, 0Ls shouldn't be making decisions solely on those statistics.

wildcats2008
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby wildcats2008 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:33 pm

Hey, 0L here, planning to apply in the fall of 2011. Does anyone know if the crash hurt the legal field evenly or if some fields shouldered the crash better than others? I'm looking into IP, which I know has traditionally been one of the safer areas of law, but ITE, it seems that nothing has been unscathed. Thanks for the help!

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sayan
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby sayan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:36 pm

Don't go to law school unless you're at HYS or win the Hamilton at Columbia.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby jenesaislaw » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:37 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:LST is great, and I very much support it's mission.

However, don't get too hung up on the data they provide right now in the clearinghouse section. It's class of 2008 data. Very much out of date, ITE. Certainly, 0Ls shouldn't be making decisions solely on those statistics.


This is right on point. The information we add in the clearinghouse, while useful, is out of date. Things are worse than they were in 2008 across the board. The most useful point of the clearinghouse, in my mind, is to show people how to think about the salary information. The 2009 salary information will be out in about a month. I assure you we will have it up in a similar format ASAP.

Anonymous User wrote:Don't go to law school unless you're at HYS or win the Hamilton at Columbia.


I don't understand it when people make these broad-sweeping claims.

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HugerThanSoup
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby HugerThanSoup » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't go to law school unless you're at HYS or win the Hamilton at Columbia.


I wish I "won" a Hamilton...

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:43 pm

JazzOne wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
JazzOne wrote:My 1L grades were solid, so I focused exclusively on biglaw. That almost turned out to be a huge mistake. I don't think other areas were any better, but I'm really not sure.


Jazz, are you at UT? and you almost struck out at OCI or what?

I do attend UT, and I didn't get my first offer until fairly late in the hiring season. My ratio of callbacks to screening interviews was horrible, so I must be a bad interviewer. I ended up with a job that is far better than anything I ever imagined, so I'm thrilled. But it was a stressful ride, to say the least.

Yeah, I've always like you but you really freaked out for awhile there and I was all like "what the hell man......" then you got back to normal and I was all like "cooool."

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DallasCowboy
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby DallasCowboy » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:44 pm

IP==>Profit

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JazzOne
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JazzOne » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:46 pm

A'nold wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
JazzOne wrote:My 1L grades were solid, so I focused exclusively on biglaw. That almost turned out to be a huge mistake. I don't think other areas were any better, but I'm really not sure.


Jazz, are you at UT? and you almost struck out at OCI or what?

I do attend UT, and I didn't get my first offer until fairly late in the hiring season. My ratio of callbacks to screening interviews was horrible, so I must be a bad interviewer. I ended up with a job that is far better than anything I ever imagined, so I'm thrilled. But it was a stressful ride, to say the least.

Yeah, I've always like you but you really freaked out for awhile there and I was all like "what the hell man......" then you got back to normal and I was all like "cooool."

In my defense, I had a cancer scare. It turned out to be nothing more than the fact that I'm getting a little older and my body is doing some things it's never done before. But I thought I was fucked in more ways than one. My attitude turned pretty sour, and I apologize for that.

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haoledugan
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby haoledugan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:56 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:LST is great, and I very much support it's mission.
The 2009 salary information will be out in about a month. I assure you we will have it up in a similar format ASAP.




I am very curious to see these numbers.

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Malcolm8X
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby Malcolm8X » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't go to law school unless you're at HYS or win the Hamilton at Columbia.


This is moronic

rose711
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby rose711 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:09 pm

Maybe a better way for OP to understand the market he will be going into is to get in touch with the current 3Ls and 2Ls.. or get placement data from the school he will be attending and research the firms. I just feel that a good deal of the hiring is "local" for each school -so that general information, no matter how well meaning and politely stated, is not enough to be relied on for a person. OP needs to learn how to research the job market for his skills.

At the end of the day, each person should do their own extensive job market research, the same as they research schools. I don't think that ever ends, in a professional career you always have to pay attention to what is happening with the market for your skills and stay current or ahead of the curve. The need to know what clients want and what firms are hiring will never end as long as you are practicing law. If you think that is an exaggeration, a friend of mine who is almost 60 and a partner in a firm in NYC still gets calls from head hunters.
Last edited by rose711 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A'nold
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby A'nold » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:09 pm

A'nold wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
JazzOne wrote:

Jazz, are you at UT? and you almost struck out at OCI or what?

I do attend UT, and I didn't get my first offer until fairly late in the hiring season. My ratio of callbacks to screening interviews was horrible, so I must be a bad interviewer. I ended up with a job that is far better than anything I ever imagined, so I'm thrilled. But it was a stressful ride, to say the least.

Yeah, I've always like you but you really freaked out for awhile there and I was all like "what the hell man......" then you got back to normal and I was all like "cooool."

In my defense, I had a cancer scare. It turned out to be nothing more than the fact that I'm getting a little older and my body is doing some things it's never done before. But I thought I was fucked in more ways than one. My attitude turned pretty sour, and I apologize for that.


Completely understandable. I think you are one of the best posters here, fwiw *hugs jazzone*

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JazzOne
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JazzOne » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:23 pm

A'nold wrote:Completely understandable. I think you are one of the best posters here, fwiw *hugs jazzone*

Well thanks. I highly value your contributions to the forum as well.

xyzbca
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby xyzbca » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:22 am

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
haoledugan wrote:Can we disagree without the condescension, please? Thanks

I'm torn. On the one hand, I respect your request for courteous conversation. And I purposely left out some of the snark I otherwise would've included in my last post because of that. But on the other hand, in this, the forum for students and graduates, I do think the students and the graduates get to choose the terms of debate. As was alluded to above, the relentless, unending tide of uninformed (albeit well-meaning) 0L commentary grows tiresome very, very quickly.


I commend you for being more restrained than I could be. I did get a little chuckle at the 0L anticipating compliance with his/her request.

I'm not sure what OP is hoping to really accomplish in this thread. Maybe if we're all polite enough it will turn out that all of the horror stories out there are wild exaggerations?

OP: The reason you see snide, sarcastic, condescending comments in these threads is b/c it truly is that bad out there. 99.9% of us were blissfully ignorant 0L's. Sure, you might be *aware* of the legal job market, but it is really hard to appreciate it until you go through it. Gambling really is an apt analogy here. You can watch somebody play poker with $150k of chips on the table and "know" the risk involved. But until you actually sit in that chair with your money on the line, you don't really know. Even if you did all the research, read all the articles and talked to all the students you could, it is nearly impossible to appreciate just how rough things are.

By the time you really figure things out, it leaves you just a little bit jaded. Even many of us that do extremely well end up with a sense of relief instead of a feeling of accomplishment. No matter how many of us tell you how bad things are, it will be difficult for you to understand it. The tone of the delivery is irrelevant. How do I know this? B/c many of us were just like you and didn't understand it. A professor that gave me a great LOR when I applied to law school did so on the condition that I read the WSJ article from the mid-2000's. I understood the concept of what that article was talking about but not in the way I understand it now.

Most of us can't give you the objective, substantiated data you seek. We can give you general advice and much of it is very similar to the 8:11 anonymous post (that you didn't care for b/c of the tone).

I'm at a T1, easily Top 10% and yes, the market is really rough out there (in all areas).

Important question to you: how much UG debt are you carrying and how much LS debt are you expecting to add? No matter how much you may think otherwise, this will have a huge bearing on happy you are with your job situation coming out of LS.

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JazzOne
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:17 am

xyzbca wrote:The reason you see snide, sarcastic, condescending comments in these threads is b/c it truly is that bad out there. 99.9% of us were blissfully ignorant 0L's. Sure, you might be *aware* of the legal job market, but it is really hard to appreciate it until you go through it. Gambling really is an apt analogy here. You can watch somebody play poker with $150k of chips on the table and "know" the risk involved. But until you actually sit in that chair with your money on the line, you don't really know. Even if you did all the research, read all the articles and talked to all the students you could, it is nearly impossible to appreciate just how rough things are.

By the time you really figure things out, it leaves you just a little bit jaded. Even many of us that do extremely well end up with a sense of relief instead of a feeling of accomplishment. No matter how many of us tell you how bad things are, it will be difficult for you to understand it. The tone of the delivery is irrelevant. How do I know this? B/c many of us were just like you and didn't understand it. A professor that gave me a great LOR when I applied to law school did so on the condition that I read the WSJ article from the mid-2000's. I understood the concept of what that article was talking about but not in the way I understand it now.

+1

This is gold. You can watch Phil Ivey on TV all day long and study the odds until you're blue in the face, but until you shove thousands of dollars of your own money into the pot, knowing that the outcome is not entirely within your control, you really don't know what it's like. Having achieved a decent amount of success in law school and in my job search, I will echo the notion that I feel "relief" rather than "accomplishment."

PriyaRai
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby PriyaRai » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:29 am

Jazz - what firm did you end up at? Name a few peer firms if needed.

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JazzOne
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:36 am

PriyaRai wrote:Jazz - what firm did you end up at? Name a few peer firms if needed.

I would love to answer your question, but outing your firm on an internet forum is really taboo. I will be working for a litigation boutique that pays above market. I've already said too much, so I'll leave it at that. I'm sorry I can't be more specific.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Courteous, Substantiated Thoughts, Please.

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:37 am

JazzOne wrote:until you shove thousands of dollars of your own money into the pot, knowing that the outcome is not entirely within your control, you really don't know what it's like.


This is pretty accurate in terms of the feeling. I still haven't found work for this summer, and I can tell you that at this point, it's almost becoming a joke. The last two places I interviewed with actually were wondering why I wasn't employed somewhere yet, and asked about it. Felt a bit weird answering that one.

Granted, the stress over it seems to have passed, and I can prep the question for interviews, but still having to hack out a summer job and carve out something for post-grad times is a just a really bad experience. It also doesn't help that most people feel like they've done everything they were supposed to do, and really, could do, to set themselves up the right way. The loans really make it worse because, although you're not strictly limited by them, you feel like you have a really narrow set of career options that allow you to pay them down, some of which are nearly unattainable at this point.

And I'm not even close to paying sticker, so I can only imagine how a lot of folks who are feel.




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