What is a "primary" market?

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What is a "primary" market?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:28 pm

Which markets are considered "primary," besides NYC (such as LA, DC etc)

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:38 pm

LA and DC.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:38 pm

Chicago, too.

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wiseowl
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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby wiseowl » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:46 pm

NY
LA
DC
Chicago
some say SF

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby 270910 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:06 pm

NYC is more than 4 times the size of the next biggest legal market. Probably bigger if you look at $$$. It would be easy to argue that it is the primary market. It's where the business model originated, a lot of successful corporate lawyers around the country (and don't kid yourself - law firm work is 99% corporate law, be it litigation or transactional) have begun their careers in NYC.

After that, major cities attract major business and major law firms to represent those businesses. You could make arguments that Chicago, DC, LA, SF, and Texas (which is a bit more spread out) constitute major or "primary" legal markets as well.

The thing to realize is that locality isn't strictly necessary for a lot of matters these days, so there is an even stronger flight to NYC than there may have been in the past.
Last edited by 270910 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby rayiner » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:18 pm

disco_barred wrote:NYC is more than 4 times the size of the next biggest legal market.


Out of the 130,000 lawyers working for NLJ250 firms, there are 23,000 in NYC, 14,000 in DC, and 8,000 in Chicago.

NY is big, but it's not that disproportionately big.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby 270910 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:31 pm

rayiner wrote:
disco_barred wrote:NYC is more than 4 times the size of the next biggest legal market.


Out of the 130,000 lawyers working for NLJ250 firms, there are 23,000 in NYC, 14,000 in DC, and 8,000 in Chicago.

NY is big, but it's not that disproportionately big.


Good catch. I was running the numbers in my head for summer associates, where last year I believe NY took > 3,000 and DC, the next biggest, took 800. (And Chicago like 257, rofl). By total attorneys it's much closer.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby bwv812 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:15 pm

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Last edited by bwv812 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby 270910 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:24 pm

bwv812 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rayiner wrote:
disco_barred wrote:NYC is more than 4 times the size of the next biggest legal market.


Out of the 130,000 lawyers working for NLJ250 firms, there are 23,000 in NYC, 14,000 in DC, and 8,000 in Chicago.

NY is big, but it's not that disproportionately big.


Good catch. I was running the numbers in my head for summer associates, where last year I believe NY took > 3,000 and DC, the next biggest, took 800. (And Chicago like 257, rofl). By total attorneys it's much closer.

2009 Summer V100 SAs
NYC: 2523
DC: 913
Chicago: 459


Note to self: never attempt to do anything from memory ever again.

The overall point still stands (which is "NYC is big")

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby Person » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:41 pm

NY is definitely in a league of its own. I don't think anyone doubts that. So the question is what are the other big markets. But I think disco's point kind of brings out that this question does not make much sense. There is NY then a huge fucking gap, and then there is everything else essentially on a continuum. there is a reason to separate out NY, but then where you draw the line after that is totally arbitrary--particularly in terms of size. If might be a little less arbitrary in terms of sophistication of work performed. I think Chicago, LA, DC, Texas, and maybe SF all get a decent share of the best work. Places like Philly that rank somewhere after these still get some of that work, but no where near as much.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:47 pm

bwv812 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rayiner wrote:
disco_barred wrote:NYC is more than 4 times the size of the next biggest legal market.


Out of the 130,000 lawyers working for NLJ250 firms, there are 23,000 in NYC, 14,000 in DC, and 8,000 in Chicago.

NY is big, but it's not that disproportionately big.


Good catch. I was running the numbers in my head for summer associates, where last year I believe NY took > 3,000 and DC, the next biggest, took 800. (And Chicago like 257, rofl). By total attorneys it's much closer.

2009 Summer V100 SAs
NYC: 2523
DC: 913
Chicago: 459


I think these numbers are wrong. I posted a complete breakdown of all the Chicago NALP firms SA classes a while back and it came out to a total of around 250. I also recall someone else posting that the total 2009 SA class size was around 3,300, and there is nearly 4000 in your count above, which doesn't even include LA.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby rayiner » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:02 pm

bwv812 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rayiner wrote:
disco_barred wrote:NYC is more than 4 times the size of the next biggest legal market.


Out of the 130,000 lawyers working for NLJ250 firms, there are 23,000 in NYC, 14,000 in DC, and 8,000 in Chicago.

NY is big, but it's not that disproportionately big.


Good catch. I was running the numbers in my head for summer associates, where last year I believe NY took > 3,000 and DC, the next biggest, took 800. (And Chicago like 257, rofl). By total attorneys it's much closer.

2009 Summer V100 SAs
NYC: 2523
DC: 913
Chicago: 459


I have to wonder what things will look like in the next year or two when the little bailout boon to the financial industry runs out. I think hiring in DC/NYC is more reflective of the true health of the overall economy.
Last edited by rayiner on Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby bwv812 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:03 pm

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Last edited by bwv812 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby booboo » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:27 pm

rayiner wrote:
bwv812 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Out of the 130,000 lawyers working for NLJ250 firms, there are 23,000 in NYC, 14,000 in DC, and 8,000 in Chicago.

NY is big, but it's not that disproportionately big.


Good catch. I was running the numbers in my head for summer associates, where last year I believe NY took > 3,000 and DC, the next biggest, took 800. (And Chicago like 257, rofl). By total attorneys it's much closer.

2009 Summer V100 SAs
NYC: 2523
DC: 913
Chicago: 459


I have to wonder what things will look like in the next year or two when the little bailout boon to the financial industry runs out. I think hiring in DC/NYC is more reflective of the true health of the overall economy.


So does that mean you think it will be better or worse?

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Re: What is a "primary" market?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:53 pm

bwv812 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
bwv812 wrote:NYC: 2523
DC: 913
Chicago: 459


I think these numbers are wrong. I posted a complete breakdown of all the Chicago NALP firms SA classes a while back and it came out to a total of around 250. I also recall someone else posting that the total 2009 SA class size was around 3,300, and there is nearly 4000 in your count above, which doesn't even include LA.

The 3,300 (3,779, actually) was from the NALP perspectives report, which was subject to self-reporting by the firms (only 302 employers/offices submitted data), and severely underestimated overall class sizes. The numbers I quoted were culled from the individual NALP sheets for the V100.

Chicago 2009 SA sizes as per the individual NALP sheets
Jenner: 46
Winston: 54
Mayer: 44
Sidley: 41
Kirkland: 52
Skadden: 33

That's more than 250 right there. Also note that the numbers quoted actually underestimate SA class sizes because they are only those SAs who were eligible to receive offers.


Oh, shit, you are looking at 2 summers ago (i.e. 2009). Completely missed that. It was around 250 last summer (2010). I think the drops last summer were similar in other markets as well.

EDIT- I'm going to take a wild guess and say that disco_barred was probably referring to last summer in his above post that you responded to when he said "last year."

EDIT 2-
Found my chart of Chicago's breakdown. Here it is:

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16 :shock:

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5 :shock:

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11 :shock:

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9 :shock:

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256 :shock:

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010




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