Michigan 2014 OCI Thread!!!!!!! Forum

[megagnarley]

You guys are making Michigan look terrible. Some younger Biglaw attorneys (including those that do CB interviews) check TLS from time to time to see how their firm/school is being discussed. I would be a little more careful about how you come across. It can not only negatively affect you, but it can negatively affect the way that interviewers see Michigan students in general.

Take it or leave it, but as a current Biglaw attorney (and frequent CB interviewer) and Michigan alum, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

I'm not involved in the conversation, nor do I want to be, but if your firm would actually view an anonymous pissing contest between three students on a message board as a factor in your hiring practice regarding a school of 900+ students--heaven help your firm's soul.

Edit: I cannot spell.

[Anonymous User]

Michigan has placed poorly in NYC since the crisis. NY firms do not want to pay the price for CBS when they can get equivalent candidates from Cornell Penn uva and ccn. Its a shame but for NYC big law Mich can be a real black box. I had 3.5 on the old curve and came away with nothing. there were other students just like me, it happens every year. If you look at the placement numbers only about 15% of our class ends up in ny and its certainly not all self selection. The short of it is that Michigan is simply not a good investment if you are looking to debt finance a gamble on NYC big law.

You sound like an uptight snob who doesn't realize how lucky he/she is. You are the one making Michigan look bad.

[Anonymous User]

It's hard for me to believe that the anti-Michigan trolling occurring ITT is coming from current Michigan students and alums. If it is, it is certainly depressing.

Michigan has placed poorly in NYC since the crisis. I had 3.5 on the old curve and came away with nothing. there were other students just like me, it happens every year. If you look at the placement numbers only about 15% of our class ends up in ny and its certainly not all self selection. The short of it is that Michigan is simply not a good investment if you are looking to debt finance a gamble on NYC big law.

I'm sorry you had a 3.5 and ended up w/ nothing, but your personal experience does not tell the story of 1. Your class as a whole; or 2. The current 2L class as a whole. I know multiple people with 3.5 and below that have offers at V10s and V5s. When a 3.5 is getting you SullCrom or DPW I don't think Michigan placement is as bad as you're making it out to be.

[scaliaantics]

You're entirely missing the point.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

ITT: some 2L called scaliaantics and an anon refuse to learn how to let go.

[Anonymous User]

Aside from Georgetown, hasn't Michigan been the the worst performer in the T14 in terms of Big Law placement (according to that NLJ250 data they release ever year) for a few years now? I don't think anyone should be totally surprised if only half the class is able to get a position.

[Anonymous User]

It's hard for me to believe that the anti-Michigan trolling occurring ITT is coming from current Michigan students and alums. If it is, it is certainly depressing.

Michigan has placed poorly in NYC since the crisis. I had 3.5 on the old curve and came away with nothing. there were other students just like me, it happens every year. If you look at the placement numbers only about 15% of our class ends up in ny and its certainly not all self selection. The short of it is that Michigan is simply not a good investment if you are looking to debt finance a gamble on NYC big law.

I'm sorry you had a 3.5 and ended up w/ nothing, but your personal experience does not tell the story of 1. Your class as a whole; or 2. The current 2L class as a whole. I know multiple people with 3.5 and below that have offers at V10s and V5s. When a 3.5 is getting you SullCrom or DPW I don't think Michigan placement is as bad as you're making it out to be.

That's not inconsistent with what I said. All I'm saying is that there are people in that same population that end up with nothing. And its more people than most prospective students would believe and based on my experience it happens in the NY market just as much as anywhere else (everyone assumes 3.5 NYC would be biglaw secure). Last year 2013 we had 60/398 or about 15% in NYC. That is a very low number for Mich and its certainly way lower than I would have thought when I applied even factoring in self selection. Its the unpredictability of big law hiring and the fact tat firms have cheaper interviewee alternatives that makes Mich a bad investment for NY focused students. My opinion having been through the gauntlet.

[Anonymous User]

The class as a whole has done very, very well. Not sure how anyone else could say otherwise when 10+ people with sub-3.3 have V20 offers. I'm sure there's more than ten, too - that's just out of the people I know.

Scaliaantics u mad bro? People in this thread with 3.5+ and no offers need to learn to be better interviewers and/or less awkward. Grades will do a.lot for you, but you have to take care of the rest.

[Anonymous User]

The class as a whole has done very, very well. Not sure how anyone else could say otherwise when 10+ people with sub-3.3 have V20 offers. I'm sure there's more than ten, too - that's just out of the people I know.

Scaliaantics u mad bro? People in this thread with 3.5+ and no offers need to learn to be better interviewers and/or less awkward. Grades will do a.lot for you, but you have to take care of the rest.

We can all share our personal experiences and be civil about it. No one of us can speak for the entire Michigan population. People who struck out don't have to just shut up and be less awkward we have a right to be bitter and we have a right to share our experience. People can read this thread and judge for themselves.

[Anonymous User]

The class as a whole has done very, very well. Not sure how anyone else could say otherwise when 10+ people with sub-3.3 have V20 offers. I'm sure there's more than ten, too - that's just out of the people I know.

Scaliaantics u mad bro? People in this thread with 3.5+ and no offers need to learn to be better interviewers and/or less awkward. Grades will do a.lot for you, but you have to take care of the rest.

We can all share our personal experiences and be civil about it. No one of us can speak for the entire Michigan population. People who struck out don't have to just shut up and be less awkward we have a right to be bitter and we have a right to share our experience. People can read this thread and judge for themselves.

I think OP is simply suggesting our class' results aren't as bad as the few outliers here are making them out to be. It's true, too. News flash: just because you have a 3.6 doesn't mean you're biglaw secure. If you can't come off as professional, confident, charismatic, and friendly, you won't succeed in OCI. And frankly, you won't succeed in biglaw generally.

[Anonymous User]

The class as a whole has done very, very well. Not sure how anyone else could say otherwise when 10+ people with sub-3.3 have V20 offers. I'm sure there's more than ten, too - that's just out of the people I know.

Scaliaantics u mad bro? People in this thread with 3.5+ and no offers need to learn to be better interviewers and/or less awkward. Grades will do a.lot for you, but you have to take care of the rest.

We can all share our personal experiences and be civil about it. No one of us can speak for the entire Michigan population. People who struck out don't have to just shut up and be less awkward we have a right to be bitter and we have a right to share our experience. People can read this thread and judge for themselves.

I think OP is simply suggesting our class' results aren't as bad as the few outliers here are making them out to be. It's true, too. News flash: just because you have a 3.6 doesn't mean you're biglaw secure. If you can't come off as professional, confident, charismatic, and friendly, you won't succeed in OCI. And frankly, you won't succeed in biglaw generally.

You should stfu. I'm sure firms only have a finite number of spots they're willing to offer to michigan students so even if the 3.6 students fault was they were a bad interviewer if they fixed it and got the job it would just mean one other Michigan student probably would not have. Looking at the jobs data from ocp a lot of firms especially in non NYC markets are only taking 1 Michigan student consistently despite 3-5 callbacks. It's a zero sum game bro, not everyone can win in this economy

Eta: I don't know why everyone's getting so hurt about people venting and pointing out the obvious reality that not everyone can get jobs even with good grades. Like we get it many people did well and people even outperformed their numbers no ones denying that. But a lot of people struggled too and a lot of us underperformed our expectations given the talk about the improved economy and such.

[Anonymous User]

I hadn't looked at this in a while. You guys took it off the rails. It felt to me like we did well, but I hadn't run into anyone who was in the top half of the class and didn't have an offer.

I'm sorry for those of you who don't have an offer right now. Start mass mailing, talking to OCP, doing resume collects. and considering secondary markets. Next summer is a ways away and there's still time to find good work. You guys got into Michigan and made it through the first year. You're capable of getting a great job if you keep working at it. Try to stay positive. At the end of the day, remember that you're really talented and big law, while it may be the easiest way out of debt, is just one of many things that are worth doing.

[Anonymous User]

I hadn't looked at this in a while. You guys took it off the rails. It felt to me like we did well, but I hadn't run into anyone who was in the top half of the class and didn't have an offer.

I'm sorry for those of you who don't have an offer right now. Start mass mailing, talking to OCP, doing resume collects. and considering secondary markets. Next summer is a ways away and there's still time to find good work. You guys got into Michigan and made it through the first year. You're capable of getting a great job if you keep working at it. Try to stay positive. At the end of the day, remember that you're really talented and big law, while it may be the easiest way out of debt, is just one of many things that are worth doing.

^ always so helpful. yes to the rest of this, though.

[Anonymous User]

I hadn't looked at this in a while. You guys took it off the rails. It felt to me like we did well, but I hadn't run into anyone who was in the top half of the class and didn't have an offer.

I'm sorry for those of you who don't have an offer right now. Start mass mailing, talking to OCP, doing resume collects. and considering secondary markets. Next summer is a ways away and there's still time to find good work. You guys got into Michigan and made it through the first year. You're capable of getting a great job if you keep working at it. Try to stay positive. At the end of the day, remember that you're really talented and big law, while it may be the easiest way out of debt, is just one of many things that are worth doing.

^ always so helpful. yes to the rest of this, though.

Anon from above. Yeah, maybe don't bother with the OCP thing.

In their defense, they do a good job putting together OCI and some events, they just don't offer any personal advice or help that's actually useful.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

I think OP is simply suggesting our class' results aren't as bad as the few outliers here are making them out to be. It's true, too. News flash: just because you have a 3.6 doesn't mean you're biglaw secure. If you can't come off as professional, confident, charismatic, and friendly, you won't succeed in OCI. And frankly, you won't succeed in biglaw generally.

lol anon

[Anonymous User]

~ median gpa, 0 we, 7 cb, 6 offers. everyone i know at or above the median, besides one person, has found work (anecdotal, yes).

Stay positive. The problems expressed in this thread are so minuscule when weighed against the greater challenges in life. Focus on being good people, parents, leaders, and lawyers. Although I have never once regretted my decision to attend Michigan, this forum does sadden me, and I hope you all address your setbacks productively. Stay sane y'all.

[Anonymous User]

Michigan has placed poorly in NYC since the crisis. NY firms do not want to pay the price for CBS when they can get equivalent candidates from Cornell Penn uva and ccn. Its a shame but for NYC big law Mich can be a real black box. I had 3.5 on the old curve and came away with nothing. there were other students just like me, it happens every year. If you look at the placement numbers only about 15% of our class ends up in ny and its certainly not all self selection. The short of it is that Michigan is simply not a good investment if you are looking to debt finance a gamble on NYC big law.

You sound like an uptight snob who doesn't realize how lucky he/she is. You are the one making Michigan look bad.

I don't think you realize that for firms callback costs are minimal. I mean, c'mon, we could cover the cost of a callback with 2 hours of junior billable work. My firm (NYC biglaw) called back 4 times more people than they gave offers to. Callback costs mean nothing to firms. If you don't get a callback even though you have good grades, you probably interviewed poorly or didn't mesh with the interviewer.

I also don't get where you pull this hiring "info" from. My firm hires at similar rates outside of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and NYU; these tend to be disproportionately represented. Anecdotal, but I rarely see UVA or Cornell students/grads at my firm (again NYC firm). Please stop spouting off when you have no idea what you are talking about.

If my firm is representative, firms are calling back a lot more people than they are giving offers to. Once you are called back, a lot of it has to do with how you interview, especially with partners. Many associates will give you the benefit of the doubt and will hire you unless you do something wrong during an interview. Partners' opinions are the only ones that really matter. You should prepare for your interviews by finding out what is unique about firms. Be more proactive and reach out to alums asking for information about their firms. If you learn about the firm beforehand it makes you look much better.

I know I have limited experience about OCI hiring since I've been in biglaw for a few years now, but I've heard from Michigan students asking for advice, and from what I have heard, it seems like people at median are getting multiple offers.


And if it makes you feel any better, the burn out rate out of the legal profession due to biglaw is about 1/3 to 1/2, within a few years, from what I can tell. Biglaw is not the end all, be all. And, my friends who didn't get biglaw straight out (I graduated in a much worse economy) have landed on their feet, even if it took awhile.

[Anonymous User]

Michigan has placed poorly in NYC since the crisis. NY firms do not want to pay the price for CBS when they can get equivalent candidates from Cornell Penn uva and ccn. Its a shame but for NYC big law Mich can be a real black box. I had 3.5 on the old curve and came away with nothing. there were other students just like me, it happens every year. If you look at the placement numbers only about 15% of our class ends up in ny and its certainly not all self selection. The short of it is that Michigan is simply not a good investment if you are looking to debt finance a gamble on NYC big law.

You sound like an uptight snob who doesn't realize how lucky he/she is. You are the one making Michigan look bad.

I don't think you realize that for firms callback costs are minimal. I mean, c'mon, we could cover the cost of a callback with 2 hours of junior billable work. My firm (NYC biglaw) called back 4 times more people than they gave offers to. Callback costs mean nothing to firms. If you don't get a callback even though you have good grades, you probably interviewed poorly or didn't mesh with the interviewer.

I also don't get where you pull this hiring "info" from. My firm hires at similar rates outside of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and NYU; these tend to be disproportionately represented. Anecdotal, but I rarely see UVA or Cornell students/grads at my firm (again NYC firm). Please stop spouting off when you have no idea what you are talking about.

If my firm is representative, firms are calling back a lot more people than they are giving offers to. Once you are called back, a lot of it has to do with how you interview, especially with partners. Many associates will give you the benefit of the doubt and will hire you unless you do something wrong during an interview. Partners' opinions are the only ones that really matter. You should prepare for your interviews by finding out what is unique about firms. Be more proactive and reach out to alums asking for information about their firms. If you learn about the firm beforehand it makes you look much better.

I know I have limited experience about OCI hiring since I've been in biglaw for a few years now, but I've heard from Michigan students asking for advice, and from what I have heard, it seems like people at median are getting multiple offers.


And if it makes you feel any better, the burn out rate out of the legal profession due to biglaw is about 1/3 to 1/2, within a few years, from what I can tell. Biglaw is not the end all, be all. And, my friends who didn't get biglaw straight out (I graduated in a much worse economy) have landed on their feet, even if it took awhile.

Really? The cost of my airfare + hotel was at least 1k. Add to that the amount corresponding to time wasted by partners and associates and the costs seems more than "nothing" to me. But you probably know better...

[Anonymous User]

Michigan has placed poorly in NYC since the crisis. NY firms do not want to pay the price for CBS when they can get equivalent candidates from Cornell Penn uva and ccn. Its a shame but for NYC big law Mich can be a real black box. I had 3.5 on the old curve and came away with nothing. there were other students just like me, it happens every year. If you look at the placement numbers only about 15% of our class ends up in ny and its certainly not all self selection. The short of it is that Michigan is simply not a good investment if you are looking to debt finance a gamble on NYC big law.

You sound like an uptight snob who doesn't realize how lucky he/she is. You are the one making Michigan look bad.

I don't think you realize that for firms callback costs are minimal. I mean, c'mon, we could cover the cost of a callback with 2 hours of junior billable work. My firm (NYC biglaw) called back 4 times more people than they gave offers to. Callback costs mean nothing to firms. If you don't get a callback even though you have good grades, you probably interviewed poorly or didn't mesh with the interviewer.

I also don't get where you pull this hiring "info" from. My firm hires at similar rates outside of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and NYU; these tend to be disproportionately represented. Anecdotal, but I rarely see UVA or Cornell students/grads at my firm (again NYC firm). Please stop spouting off when you have no idea what you are talking about.

If my firm is representative, firms are calling back a lot more people than they are giving offers to. Once you are called back, a lot of it has to do with how you interview, especially with partners. Many associates will give you the benefit of the doubt and will hire you unless you do something wrong during an interview. Partners' opinions are the only ones that really matter. You should prepare for your interviews by finding out what is unique about firms. Be more proactive and reach out to alums asking for information about their firms. If you learn about the firm beforehand it makes you look much better.

I know I have limited experience about OCI hiring since I've been in biglaw for a few years now, but I've heard from Michigan students asking for advice, and from what I have heard, it seems like people at median are getting multiple offers.


And if it makes you feel any better, the burn out rate out of the legal profession due to biglaw is about 1/3 to 1/2, within a few years, from what I can tell. Biglaw is not the end all, be all. And, my friends who didn't get biglaw straight out (I graduated in a much worse economy) have landed on their feet, even if it took awhile.

Really? The cost of my airfare + hotel was at least 1k. Add to that the amount corresponding to time wasted by partners and associates and the costs seems more than "nothing" to me. But you probably know better...

Not the first anon, but a couple thousand spent on callbacks is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount SAs earn plus the amount many firms will blow on social events plus that 160k salary for the first year (when your value added to the firm is very little). I see how a smaller firm in a small market might be more sensitive to these costs, but the theory doesn't make that much sense when talking about NYC BigLaw.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get a feeling of how the class did this year?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get a feeling of how the class did this year?

Lol

[Anonymous User]

has anyone been able to find a big, mid, or small firm ummer job in the past couple of weeks?

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but do any Michigan people have general advice when it comes to building bidlists?

I keep seeing that you should be "conservative," but does this mean that you should only bid firms where you hit or surpass median? Have big classes?
Would it be foolhardy to bid firms where your GPA are closer to the 25th percentile, especially if you have WE and ties to the area?

Thanks!

[CTT]

I have advice, and no, but start a new thread

You get 30 bids, you have lots of space below 15 to add on firms that are going to be a reach for you.

[Anonymous User]

To anon above. First, as last poster said, yes just start a new thread.

General advice about building a bid list: crunch the numbers. The goal is to get the largest amount of screeners you can from firms where you hit their GPA cutoff. To do that you should look to bidding data to figure out what's the lowest possible spot you can bid firm X and still be guaranteed an interview. Repeat that process for every firm you want to interview for. It's tedious but this is all worth it

On the "conservative" bidding question. Key thing to keep in mind is that once you hit a firm's GPA threshold, the offer is sort of yours to lose if you "fit". That means, if you are at a firm's 75th, you may stand no better chance really at a job than the person at the 25th. Huge overgeneralization, and I'm speaking largely from experience with big firms in (non-DC) big markets, but there is a two step process basically which holds true even at the callback level: 1) GPA cutoff?; 2) fit? If it seems firm X has a cutoff of 3.5 (firms make exceptions so you should look at a firm's 25th for their cutoff, not their low), and you have a 3.5, my experience is that you are about 10x more likely to get an offer at that firm than a 3.45 is and about twice less likely than a 3.7 is.

2014 OCI results: 3.5-3.7; 9 offers off 12 callbacks and 20 screeners in major markets.

Anon because of that last piece of info.