Rutgers-Newark Class of 2012 Forum

[Zeph]

I'm racking my brain over Rutgers or George Mason, so far I've got 2 deposits down. I'm leaning towards Rutgers though.

honestly depends where you want to practice. Both are regional schools and provide good employment in their surrounding area.

[njlaw9624]

Unless I get into IU-Bloomington I'll be in Newark this Fall. Anyone else planing on living on campus?

I am. I sent in my housing deposit and am hoping for University Square.

I sent in my housing deposit as well. After taking the tour on admitted students day, i am definitely hoping for university square.

[bayberrymoon]

Ugh, so Rutgers-Newark went down 10 spots in the new rankings

What do you all think of this recent development? I'm starting to wonder if I withdrew from other schools too early. Reassure me!

[PhantaManta]

Since IU-Indy fell 19 and Nebraska fell 20+, this basically means Rutgers is tier 4 next year! o noes!

[Zeph]

Ugh, so Rutgers-Newark went down 10 spots in the new rankings

What do you all think of this recent development? I'm starting to wonder if I withdrew from other schools too early. Reassure me!

I do believe the admissions people said they don't care about the rankings, at least that's what I heard here. So who cares? 77,87? big whoop. Its not like it was 7th to 87th I do not think this is anything to really worry about. If it falls out of the top 100, which I don't think it will, then I would worry. I do however find it interesting that R-Camden is >R-Newark on the rankings...

[jpasqu1]

Ugh, so Rutgers-Newark went down 10 spots in the new rankings

What do you all think of this recent development? I'm starting to wonder if I withdrew from other schools too early. Reassure me!

Considering the chief competition for north Jersey jobs is SHU and they dropped 11 spots, I'm not that worried.

Ugh, so Rutgers-Newark went down 10 spots in the new rankings

What do you all think of this recent development? I'm starting to wonder if I withdrew from other schools too early. Reassure me!

I do believe the admissions people said they don't care about the rankings, at least that's what I heard here. So who cares? 77,87? big whoop. Its not like it was 7th to 87th I do not think this is anything to really worry about. If it falls out of the top 100, which I don't think it will, then I would worry. I do however find it interesting that R-Camden is >R-Newark on the rankings...

At the ASD the dean of admissions was talking about a certain other school that has a small 1L class and then admits a boat load of transfers to avoid dropping in the rankings. It is pretty obvious that this is Camden. They let in a crazy amount compared to the size of their 1L class. RU-N is still going to place well considering its rank.

[IzziesGal]

Ugh, so Rutgers-Newark went down 10 spots in the new rankings

What do you all think of this recent development? I'm starting to wonder if I withdrew from other schools too early. Reassure me!

Considering the chief competition for north Jersey jobs is SHU and they dropped 11 spots, I'm not that worried.

Ugh, so Rutgers-Newark went down 10 spots in the new rankings

What do you all think of this recent development? I'm starting to wonder if I withdrew from other schools too early. Reassure me!

I do believe the admissions people said they don't care about the rankings, at least that's what I heard here. So who cares? 77,87? big whoop. Its not like it was 7th to 87th I do not think this is anything to really worry about. If it falls out of the top 100, which I don't think it will, then I would worry. I do however find it interesting that R-Camden is >R-Newark on the rankings...

At the ASD the dean of admissions was talking about a certain other school that has a small 1L class and then admits a boat load of transfers to avoid dropping in the rankings. It is pretty obvious that this is Camden. They let in a crazy amount compared to the size of their 1L class. RU-N is still going to place well considering its rank.

I honestly wouldn't let the drop worry you too much, either. Again, it can be jolting at first, but it's not the end of the world. People get swept away in the rankings way too easily sometimes (I'm guilty of this at times, as well). It sucks that we have to wait another whole year to see all the changes!!!!

[afterglow99]

The whole appeal of Rutgers for me is that its placement and employment stats seem to defy the rankings. If Rutgers fell to T3 and still placed 15% in big law, I'd say that's still a waay better deal that Brooklyn, Cardozo, Seton Hall, and St John's at twice the price, regardless of rank.

With that said i still might go to GMU lol.

[losjeans]

What do you all think of this recent development?

I think Rutgers should increase secretarial salaries.

--LinkRemoved--

[phooey182]

Personally I'm annoyed at the big drop. I think RU-N knew they would drop in the rankings, and probably said what they said about 'not caring' to soften the blow.

With that said, frankly I don't think it matters. I've been working (not in the legal industry) for 12 years and no one cares what school everyone went to. The only thing people care about in the 'real world' is your attitude, work ethic, professionalism and ability. Sure you might have to work a little harder getting that first job. But once you're there, you're there, and school doesn't matter.

Lastly, all the top 100 law schools give you pretty much the same education. All the first year classes are the same, the casebooks are the same and the learning process is the same. Does anyone think that Harvard teaches different cases than Rutgers? Or that Yale students have some secret teaching method that turns out better lawyers? Nonsense. No one is going to tell me that they are a better lawyer simply because they went to a higher ranked school.

[dapoetic1]

Everyone seems to forget that a school doesn't have to do anything significant to rise or drop in rankings. Especially to drop in the rankings. The fact that one school like Northwestern fell 1 point could have actually caused Rutgers to fall 10 points. It's not as methodical as you would think. A school at the top of the list can cause significant changes to schools in the middle and school at the bottom.
Rutgers-C also spent about $30million dollars on a new law school so that's part of the reason for their ranking. Where school's spend money and what they spend it on and how they account for certain spending is a part of the ranking. Some schools will allocate money donated to the school in an area where they know they're being ranked in order to raise their rankings. Most schools know how to game the system and they do it very well.
I would not be surprised that a school that rose 10 places fall next year when a differnt school builds a new building or gets a big endowment and causes another huge shift. Whenever there are such large shifts in the rankings you can expect it's from something completely ridiculous and the next year there will be another huge swing.

I find it hard to believe that all the people that currently recruit R-N grads are now going to think differently of the education because the school is in a different spot on a non-law related magazine. Why don't we all just wait for the Better Homes and Gardens Law School rankings to come out?

I picked Rutgers of 5 schools "currently" ranked in the top 25...and at each one of those schools their programs just did not compare to Rutgers'. And there's no way that someone is going to convince me that going to school in Illinois, or Iowa or St Louis (at $160k of debt) is a better choice if I want to work in NJ/NY than going to Rutgers (with $30k of debt). The rankings don't talk about the outrageous tuition hikes these public schools are charging. And by the time all of us graduate most of these schools will probably be right back where they started a year or two ago--or worse!

[losjeans]

Personally I'm annoyed at the big drop. I think RU-N knew they would drop in the rankings, and probably said what they said about 'not caring' to soften the blow.

That's an interesting point.

Though I tend to think that if Rutgers wanted to jump in the rankings there's no reason they can't. Given the region and the name of the school, gaming the system would be easy, so to speak. So this tends to make me believe that they're not following the heard, and instead are doing what they think is proper in terms of running a law school. Also ask yourself what's changed with the school between this year and last year. The ranking by USN for one thing, but why is that significant? Are these rankings getting to the truth of the matter? For instance, does a ranking of 87 really tell you about how good the school is based on what's important to you? If you could make your own rankings, would RU end up at 87 as well? Is it in the right area for you, geographically speaking? What about employment prospects, and so on? Would you be happier at some Oregon school that is 10 spots higher, and climbing? What about debt and tuition, are these not important enough to you to disregard an arbitrarily derived number that has no value unless it is given value by you? By giving the rankings value, you endorse the criteria, but is that criteria encompassing of what you think is a good school? One should be carefully introspective about such questions.

Life choices like this are very complicated and serious, and one number on a poorly devised ranking system shouldn't be an important factor. A large problem with this message board, in my opinion, is that people read that other people are obsessed with these ranking spots; and they begin to think it's important too, for no other reason than everyone else seems to care.

Read between the lines; research the school, the area, the professors, the priorities of the school, and make a decision based on that. These things are what determine what kind of educational experience, and otherwise, you're going to have. That number goes away once you're in school, and all that's left is the students and professors you join in order to become the lawyers of tomorrow. So again, don't base serious life choices on a number derived by people you've never met and whom certainly don't have your best interest at heart.

By the way this isn't for RU students, but anyone considering schools. Don't let USN make choices for you. If you end up at RU, or anywhere else, you don't end up with a tattoo on your forehead of the ranking of the school you choose.

[losjeans]

Also, R-N got a new dean: "John J. Farmer, Jr. Named Dean of the Law School"

http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/

[losjeans]

Everyone seems to forget that a school doesn't have to do anything significant to rise or drop in rankings. Especially to drop in the rankings. The fact that one school like Northwestern fell 1 point could have actually caused Rutgers to fall 10 points. It's not as methodical as you would think.

This is a great point, and it's true. Someone fooled around with the rankings in this way and showed that other schools get moved around. Very telling.

[dapoetic1]

Everyone seems to forget that a school doesn't have to do anything significant to rise or drop in rankings. Especially to drop in the rankings. The fact that one school like Northwestern fell 1 point could have actually caused Rutgers to fall 10 points. It's not as methodical as you would think.

This is a great point, and it's true. Someone fooled around with the rankings in this way and showed that other schools get moved around. Very telling.

Yeah I was actually trying to find that article and can't remember how I got to it, but it showed exactly how this worked. It's pathetic.
You seem to be one of the few people on here not drinking the Kool-Aid. Have you made a decision yet? Are you going to R-N?

[Zeph]

Why don't we all just wait for the Better Homes and Gardens Law School rankings to come out?

awesome


anyway, 87th or 190289018901820982 I still want in...

[losjeans]

Yeah I was actually trying to find that article and can't remember how I got to it, but it showed exactly how this worked. It's pathetic. You seem to be one of the few people on here not drinking the Kool-Aid. Have you made a decision yet? Are you going to R-N?

The story is somewhat interesting, at least to me. R-N wasn't my first choice. When I started applying it didn't stand out that much to me for whatever reason. However, R-N was one of the first schools I heard from so I had time to focus on this school in particular since it was among some safety schools that didn't appeal to me a great deal at that point. I spent a lot of time researching, I mean a lot, and the more I read the more I felt the school was a good fit. I also spoke to lawyers I know in the area and otherwise. So R-N quickly became #1 for me, say three weeks or so after I heard from them, I knew that's where I wanted to be. I'm also very decisive so that helps.

Cliffs:
-Wasn't really thinking R-N
-Got accepted fairly early
-Three weeks later or so, becomes my pick

[dapoetic1]

Yeah it was kind of the same for me. It was really more of a safety. But I heard back early and I had a ton of time to compare. And like you I knew a lot of people I could ask and they are all in the legal market in NY and Chicago. I inquired about the reputation of R-N and I had a chance to do my own research and got into the weeds with it.

It became clear after looking at a lot of what is happening with these law firms and the incoming associates. They're pushing start dates back to Jan 2010 and in some cases spring of 2010 or later. Some firms are only giving their deferred associates stipends of $5k or 10K--I'd love to see someone try to live off a stipend while paying back $160k in student debt.

I think with Rutgers if you want a biglaw job the possibility is there. It's going to require work and networking but it's certainly doable. If you want a clerkship, again, it can certainly happen. If you want a job at a small/mid-size firm, public interest work, business it's pretty much all right there for you. Best of all it'll only cost you pennies compared to what it would cost at other schools whose students are clawing for NY jobs.

The Rutgers forums seem to be full of grounded, intelligent individuals and if I had to base my choice on some of the reactions from people on this forum alone I would say I'm definitely making the right choice. I'm sure there are going to be som jurassic douche bags at Rutgers but there's no way it'll compare to some of the other schools where people are trying to get their deposits back because their school dropped 3 whole spots

I guess I'm just getting to old to care about this kind of B-S. I've been out in the real world and there's going to be one hell of a rude awakening when these kids realize the rank their schools hold (once held) won't mean a hill of beans if they don't know how to be lawyers when they walk into the job.

[Zeph]

I guess I'm just getting to old to care about this kind of B-S. I've been out in the real world and there's going to be one hell of a rude awakening when these kids realize the rank their schools hold (once held) won't mean a hill of beans if they don't know how to be lawyers when they walk into the job.

truth

[losjeans]

Yea I have to admit I do like the personalities, so far as I can discern them in these R-N threads. I can't speak on much else passed that, though. The general culture on this board, as I see it, is that you are suppose to engage in absurdly long arguments and "prove" that the other person is an idiot. Or conversely you should stake out a position just because you want to make the other person look dumb. Like you said, it's BS and having enough life experience will tame these attitudes, at least I hope so for their sake. I'm not posturing though, I still have a lot to learn and experience myself. I just hope that people can see passed the consensus on here that USN is terribly important, especially when the consensus comes from a bunch of people who appear to desperately seek approval via rankings and online arguments.

[Dacos]

...

[bayberrymoon]

Haha, you all are right, my post about Rutgers falling 10 spots was pretty silly. My initial reaction was for some reason, but it doesn't matter at all (or at least, it matters very little) in the grand scheme of things. Thanks for keeping me sane!

[losjeans]

I'm trying to decide if I should go to Rutgers-Newark, can you summarize your research pros and cons of the school?

Instead of me answering that, at least initially, what's important to you in a school? I could tell you what's important to me and why a school seems to fit that, but it doesn't seem as useful unless you value the same things. Just to note, I do expound a bit elsewhere, I think in this thread even, on why I chose this school.

[dapoetic1]

Well Dacos I will start by saying that law school is a very personal choice and should be given a lot of consideration. Not everyone has the same needs or goals going in or coming out. So I can only speak the specific things I was looking for in a school and why I was drawn to Rutgers.

Let me also say that if you sign a 12 month lease in the state of New jersey either on or off campus you will be billed as a New Jersey resident from day 1. It's that simple. That is in fact a tuition difference of roughly $16k/year.
Which is most certainly one of the things I looked when deciding on a school. while I certainly believe that money should not be a barrier to prevent anyone from attending a great school I also believe in the sound principles of economics.
Much like I believe that Chevy may want to charge $40k for an SUV and some people are willing to pay that price I believe I can get just as good of a vehicle (or even that vehicle) for much less. Law school is no different. There are schools that will want to charge $40k/year and there are people willing to pay that amount, but I believe in sound investments.

I believe that Rutgers graduates are extremely competitive in the NY metro (this includes NJ, and also parts of PA and CT). They have a solid reputation among legal professionals in large, mid and small firms, as well as among judges that hire clerks. Obviously the majority of their judicial clerks work in NJ but the networking and doors that will be opened from clerking in NJ are going to be just as substantial as those working in any other large city. Since it is commonly noted that NJ is really an extension of NYC you can pretty much trust that the legal professionals in NJ are included in the networking of those in NY. Law jobs are all about networking and getting your foot in the door. The large number of grads that go into clerkships is extremely high, and after a clerkship so many more doors are opened for you.

I have asked dozens and dozens of legal professional from NY,DC, LA,Chi, Atlanta, phoenix and some smaller cities what they think the biggest weakness is of the summer and incoming associates. They all either said writing or lack of clinical experience. AS far as clinical experience almost no other school does is better than Rutgers. They offer a truly extensive in-house clinical program with incredible access to the surrounding community. The professors that run the clinics are also heavily involved on a day to day basis with current legal issues and working in the clinics or as a researcher with the professors allows you first hand access to actual legal work while in school. The clinics give you the opportunity to work with an attorney and go to court, write briefs, file documents and watch trials all while in school. You don't just receive theoretical knowledge you also receive very practical knowledge.

The legal research and writing curriculum at Rutgers is also very extensive. They have a list of mandatory writing courses as well as writing intensive courses that are a part of the larger legal curriculum. In addition to having a business school right across from the law school the number of courses that area available to brush up on your writing skills in different elements in quite high.

Access to one of the largest legal markets can not be discounted. Obviously there are a number of top notch law schools in NYC and Rutgers is certainly on that list. If you search the reputable legal profession websites (like NALP) you will see that many top firms recruit at Rutgers and many Rutgers grads are associates of counsel and partners at a number of firms in NYC and NJ. Many Rutgers grads work in both the NJ and NY offices of a lot of firms b/c the NJ/NY market are so tightly knit. Again, the professors at Rutgers are currently working on legal issues and obviously they have many ties to many area of the legal market.

The Rutgers name is NOT just known in NJ/NY. The reputation of Rutgers' grads is known in the Chicago market as well as DC and I'm sure in other secondary markets (although I have not specifically looked into these smaller markets). The proximity to NYC and the relatively cheap cost of the proximity can not be overlooked. Rutgers places a high emphasis on trying to making sure it's students secure solid summer jobs that lead to employment during the school year and ultimately full time employment after graduation. Due to the low cost the students at Rutgers are able to take jobs in the Public Interest area or government arena without sacrificing quality of life. The Loan Repayment program is also very generous capping the maximum amount you can make to receive repayment at $55k the first year and with increases every year to account for reasonable raises. so you don't feel like you have to take a biglaw job to have a life if you don't want one.

A large number of students at Rutgers communte from PA or NY because they are currently working somewhere or have previously worked. To me (and this is a very personal reason) I like a school that has a greater number of older students because it really changes the dynamics of a school from an extension of undergrad to a professional school. Also on the subject of the student body Rutgers is incredibly diverse. I don't think in any one class there will be one black person or one asian person. So minorities don't have to feel like whenever a subject about race comes up they're "the ones" everyone looks to. That really makes for a lot of great discussion. Not all minorities have the same point of view and there will never just be one minority point of view because all of the classes are quite diverse.

They have a low curve (about 3.0) and they do not publish class rank to employers so that when it come time to do job interviews employers can not discriminately refuse to interview certain students because of class rank--they won't know it. This allows students to have t showcase themselves to employers and hopefully get interviews at places that might not otherwise consider them. Also they have finals at the end of the semester not at the end of the year. So if you do poorly after the first semester they have time to get together with you and your professors and figure out how to get your grades up before the end of the 1L year.

I think there were a few other reasons but these were my main reasons. I hope they help you.

EDIT: Newark isn't the greatest city in the world but it's a quick train ride to Jersey City which I think is fantastic and it's a very quick train ride to Manhattan via the PATH. The night/weekend life in NYC is of course...unparalleled.

[Dacos]

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