Advice for doing well in law school

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xeoh85
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Advice for doing well in law school

Postby xeoh85 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:15 am

I was at the top of my class in the first semester at UCLA Law School and I wanted to provide some tips on succeeding in law school to give back to TLS. I am also applying to transfer to Stanford, Harvard and Yale so any thoughts on that are appreciated.

There are four basic pillars to doing well in law school. Ignore any one of them, and you will surely land in the middle of the pack:

1) Time Management - both within and across subjects.
You must frontload your study time early in the semester so that you are not overwhelmed in the late semester when you are trying to finish up your course outlines and turn in papers for your legal writing class all at the same time.

2) Comprehension and Synthesis of Material - you MUST make your own outlines.
You should use any materials at your disposal to do this, including hornbooks and other student's past outlines. However, you must make your own outline. Using another student's will be of little use. Your outline must also be tailored to the specific class and exam type that your professor will be giving. Shoot for under 20 pages per class, so that it will be easy to memorize. You should focus on legal concepts, not cases. Even if your test is open notes, you MUST memorize all the material in your outline. You should not ever look at notes during a test, unless you are looking for some specific wording of a rule or case name.

3) An Understanding of the Essay-Based Exam - read the book "Getting to Maybe: How to Excell on Law School Exams".
This book is pure gold. I would sugest reading it one time before starting 1L, and then again about half way through every semester. It will provide you with much insight into what professors are looking for, and what you should be building your outline around.

4) Familiarity with the specific professor's testing style - you should read past exams early.
I would say that 75% of the battle is handling the test itself. Everyone will know the law. It is the test format and the complex fact patterns that are the problem. Timing is a huge issue. You must pre-outline your answers. The only way you will be prepared to handle all this is with practice taking the specific tests your professor gives. I would suggest reading through an exam for each class about 3-4 weeks in, and then starting practice tests about 2-3 weeks before finals.

Other than these 4 pillars, each person has their own style. Personally, I would take almost all of my notes while doing the reading in the library. This would make my notes much cleaner, and would free me up in class to participate in discussion, and also to fill in the gaps in my notes where I was a bit confused. On the downside, this strategy prolonged my study hours significantly.

Also, always remember that 1L is really all that matters. You will interview for jobs long before you ever get your 2L grades. The winner is he who figures out the law school education system first. Most will not figure it out until 3L.

More advice will come in subsequent posts so please read on.

Best of luck!

-X
Last edited by xeoh85 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

xeoh85
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby xeoh85 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:07 am

SoftBoiledLife:
At ucla, there is an online databank of many past tests organized by professor.

From my understanding of law schools in general, most professors will readily make available select examples of their past exams. They don't like grading gibberish crap, so they want you to be familiar with their format.

If your professor does not offer enough past exams, there are preparation books you can buy with mock exams. They won't be your professor's specific format, but they are a good second choice or supplement. For this, I like the "Siegel's" series. Or, if all else fails, you can just use exams from one of the other professors teaching the same subject.

-X

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normalien
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby normalien » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:37 am

If you transfer to HYS, you'll be able to participate in their OCI, no? Except, and correct me if I'm wrong, you won't have any HYS grades at that time. So as you interview, you'll still be able to say, "well I've transferred to HYS for X reason, but I was the #1 student at UCLA during my 1L year. You can probably even use your UCLA 1L transcripts as you interview.

Assuming I have this right ^ , then I'd say by transferring you get the best of both worlds. You'll do your OCIs where there are greater opportunities, and you'll still be able to play the 1st-in-my-class card.

Lastly, 70k is nothing coming out of HYS. You'll be out from under that in one year.

I say go to HYS. Congrats and good luck.

YoungFogey
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby YoungFogey » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:16 am

What do you want to do? If you have compelling reasons to stay in SoCal, then you should stay at UCLA.

However, the impact of you being first in your class at UCLA will diminish over time, whereas having Stanford, Yale, or Harvard as your degree granting institution will not. First of all, you are first as a 1L. There are no guarantees as to whether or not you will graduate in that position. This ranking will open a ton of doors for you during OCI, but down the line, even if you keep that first in class ranking, you will be a UCLA grad first, top of your class second. Now I'm not bashing UCLA -- it is a tremendous school and being at the top of your class is a phenomenal achievement. But, down the line (5 or 10 years into your career) having a degree from HYS may give you a slight edge in some jobs, especially if you plan on relocating geographically (especially to the East Coast). Now this is all hypothetical -- you can most certainly can build a resume with UCLA that would make you competitive for any job, but HYS might just make it a bit easier.

I think Normalien is correct -- by transferring you'll get the best of both worlds -- you'll be able to capitalize on your rank at UCLA during OCI at the other schools. You won't loose the advantage you gained for OCI, and you'll augment it with a degree that may have more long term staying power. In other words, I don't think there is any downside to transferring, except for cost.

The money is the real issue. Do you think that small sector of positions where the HYS degree will give you a bump is worth the money? My favorite phrase around here is don't buy prestige for the sake of prestige -- it's only valuable if it's going to open up opportunities you actually want to take.

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ari20dal7
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby ari20dal7 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:32 am

I'm going to go to UCLA, and I turned down higher ranked schools to do so, but I would have to think very hard about this. But you know, I'd honestly stay. #1 at UCLA is going to open nearly any door you want, and you'll be in terrific shape for jobs and whatever you want. I mean, shoot, median performance during 2L will leave you in top 10% with those grades.

Here's the thing: you know UCLA is working for you. You're obviously very comfortable there, you've got everything you could possibly need. If you have certain ambitions (partner at Wachtell, SCOTUS clerk, perhaps academia, etc), then I suppose you should go. But if you just want to make a lot of money, do PI (even pretty high-end PI), or do 95% of the jobs that most on here would kill for, then you are set for that today. Why pay more and move to an untested environment to get those things?

aliceinlawland
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby aliceinlawland » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:40 pm

As you know, only a large envelope in the mail with an Ivy League or Stanford Law emblem will tell, but you should be a shoe in at either institution, and they would be lucky to have you. Usually anyone from the top 10% at a Top 20 school can make a move without a problem, I've had friends go from GW to Georgetown, GW to Harvard and Pace to Bolt (anomally). The common demoninators were top 10% after first year. I’d be surprised if HYS didn’t offer you some money as well; though, if you are going into IP, you can recoup your loans in a few years if you are motivated to do so. Also, there are writing competitions for transfer students at most law schools, so you should be able to at least have a shot at being on a journal. IMO, there’s no reason to stay at UCLA if you get in to HYS. You can also still graduate with highest honors at HYS, based on your 2L and 3L grades. So, you are and always will be #1 at UCLA for your first year, but then you are also highest honors/ order of the coif with a degree from HYS. For me, it would be a no brainer... good luck!

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bwv812
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby bwv812 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:45 pm

At the very least you should apply to all three. I suspect that if you check with their financial aid departments, the cost differential will not be nearly as great as you think, especially since Harvard transfers are every bit as eligible for need-based aid as matriculating 1Ls. I believe they expect students to contribute $30,000 per year, and grant aid for need in excess of that.

I tend to agree with the belief that the Harvard name brand, in particular, will remain extremely useful even when you are well into your career. Given the relatively high attrition rate for lawyers and the high job-dissatisfaction endemic to the profession, it's not unreasonable to think you might want to lateral, move in-house, move to a more policy-related position, etc. In this case, the Harvard name will continue to pay dividends in a way that a UCLA degree will not. Of course, if you're certain you're going to stay at the same firm, make partner, make your millions, and retire, then UCLA will get it done... but with Harvard you'll always have options.

xeoh85
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby xeoh85 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:26 pm

Thank you all very much for the discussion and insight.

Well, I'll find out how the apps went in about 3 weeks! In the meantime, feel free to bounce any Q's off me that you have about 1L, the application process, or whatever!

-X

P.S.
underdawg wrote:Wouldn't transferring let you be able to ease up a little and not worry about having to be #1 for the next two years?

You would think so, but not for me. If I am given the opportunity to transfer to HYS, given my motivation and competitive personality, I will be number 1 there . . . or I will die trying.
Last edited by xeoh85 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

btaylor62000
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby btaylor62000 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:40 pm

xeoh85 wrote: In the meantime, feel free to bounce any Q's off me that you have about 1L, the application process, or whatever!


Thanks for the advice you have given so far. I wish you all the best with your application process to HYS! I start school this fall and found your post about the 4 pillars very helpful. I hope to be as successful as you have!

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bwv812
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby bwv812 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:37 am

CityKid2008 wrote:With that said, I give you a 99% likelihood of getting into all three - HYS - with those grades.


I'd wager on those odds; Yale and Stanford have very small transfer classes, and there are about 15 other people who finished first in their class at higher ranked schools than UCLA. That's not to say he doesn't have a very good chance at YS, but it's nowhere near 99%.

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Phoenix Wright
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby Phoenix Wright » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:04 pm

First, I have to say: congrats on such a great achievement!

Second, I have to ask: how does one get at 4.09 GPA? Do they give out A+ grades and count them in your GPA calculation? I thougt A/4.0 was the max.

Third, if A+ is indeed possible, then seriously - how do you get an A+ ?!? :lol:

Thanks for the advice and what-not. Great stuff!

xeoh85
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby xeoh85 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:52 pm

Phoenix Wright wrote:Second, I have to ask: how does one get at 4.09 GPA? Do they give out A+ grades and count them in your GPA calculation? I thougt A/4.0 was the max.

Third, if A+ is indeed possible, then seriously - how do you get an A+ ?!? :lol:

Yes, A+'s are given, though rarely.
I believe straight A+'s would be a 4.33, straight A's would be a 4.0, and straight A-'s would be a 3.66.

Personally, my grades were:
3 A+'s (5 unit courses)
3 A's (two 4 unit courses, one 5 unit)
1 A- (5 unit course) - my laptop's motherboard fried during the middle of this test. =(

So these averaged out to:
First semester - 4.0
Second semester - 4.156
Cumulative - 4.091

As for how to get an A+? You typically have to actually impress your professor. Usually this will only happen if you spot a significant number of issues that your professor himself did not see on his own exam.

-X

tagc
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby tagc » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:00 pm

S.Toppel wrote:
YoungFogey wrote:But, down the line (5 or 10 years into your career) having a degree from HYS may give you a slight edge in some jobs, especially if you plan on relocating geographically (especially to the East Coast).


i suspect that 5-10 years down the line, your accomplishments as an attorney will be far more important than your accomplishments as a law student OR the prestige of your school.

if i were the OP, i'd save the $70k, stay at UCLA, and bask in the glow of being #1. big fish/small pond and all that...


Yeah but your success as an attorney is greatly impacted by what school you went to.

If he transfers to Harvard, not only will he have a better shot at getting whatever position is up for grabs, but his clients will only see "Harvard" on his resume/bio. I had to hire lawyers before, and believe me when I say clients will filter you by where you went to school. It's not that I know a Stanford student is better than a UCLA student, but that I have to go through hundreds of lawyers and there are plenty of HYS to choose from. Why not just sift through that pile?

I've seen plenty of UCLA lawyers, and while they made my list, I went with the Harvard grad.

My personal opinion is to transfer. The money you spend now will pale in comparison to the opportunities you will have later.

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normalien
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby normalien » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:02 am

xeoh85 wrote:
Phoenix Wright wrote:Second, I have to ask: how does one get at 4.09 GPA? Do they give out A+ grades and count them in your GPA calculation? I thougt A/4.0 was the max.

Third, if A+ is indeed possible, then seriously - how do you get an A+ ?!? :lol:

Yes, A+'s are given, though rarely.
I believe straight A+'s would be a 4.33, straight A's would be a 4.0, and straight A-'s would be a 3.66.

Personally, my grades were:
3 A+'s (5 unit courses)
3 A's (two 4 unit courses, one 5 unit)
1 A- (5 unit course) - my laptop's motherboard fried during the middle of this test. =(

So these averaged out to:
First semester - 4.0
Second semester - 4.156
Cumulative - 4.091

As for how to get an A+? You typically have to actually impress your professor. Usually this will only happen if you spot a significant number of issues that your professor himself did not see on his own exam.

-X


Wow, you did this 3 times? That's crazy. I'd be shocked if you don't get offers from HYS.

Which classes did you score an A+ in?

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underdawg
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby underdawg » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:21 pm

If you transfer to S, you still have a shot at Law Review. Transfers aren't excluded.

CityKid2008
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby CityKid2008 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:42 pm

While your opportunities right out of law school from UCLA will be the same as HYS, it's the long-term prospects that'll be different (such as making partner at a large law firm). To make partner at a law large firm, you need to attract clients and unfortunately, clients often judge you by which law school you went to. At big law firms, your clients are the big corporations and they'll save their own asses (in case they lose the lawsuit) by choosing the Harvard/Yale/Stanford grad over the UCLA grad.

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renwoshin
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby renwoshin » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:12 pm

Hi Xeoh,

thanks for your advice. How much free time did you end up having per week? And if possible, what was a typical daily routine for you?

xeoh85
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby xeoh85 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:56 pm

renwoshin wrote:How much free time did you end up having per week? And if possible, what was a typical daily routine for you?

Hehe. What is this "free time" you speak of?

Before you go into law school, you should mentally prepare yourself for one basic truth:
1L is the most important year of your legal career.
You will interview with firms (or other employers) and receive offers long before they ever see the grades from your first 2L semester.

If you truly want to be successful and distinguish yourself from the pack, you need to go in with the mentality that you are going to absolutely devote your life to your legal studies for that first year. Everything else must come second. Period.

Sure, some students find lots of free time. They are not likely getting A's. If you are studying correctly, there is more to do than there are hours in the day. For me, I would go as long as I could while maintaining my sanity.

That being said, my average day would go something like this:
- Wake up at 6:30am, leave house at 7:30 am (I live in Long Beach, its a 1.5 hr commute).
- Class at 9:30 - 10:50am
- Library 11:00 - 12:20 (try to finish up the reading for whichever class had the smallest assignment that night)
- Class at 12:30 - 1:50pm
- Late lunch at 2:00pm - on campus
- Class at 2:30 - 3:50pm
- Library from 4:00 - 7:00 pm
- Dinner at 7:15 pm - on campus
- Library from 8:00 - 11:30 pm
- Drive home, watch TV for an hour, sleep...

* I would do this schedule Mon-Thurs.

* On fridays, I would typically finish my reading for Monday early, and I would then host a group outlining session in a library room during the evening.

* On Saturdays, I would usually be in the library, or hosting a second outlining session.

* I would usually work from home on Sundays, or take Sunday off.

I would also suggest doing most of your work from the library, even if you live close. It forces efficiency. I would also suggest finishing 100% of your reading for the next day's class before you leave campus each day (even on Fridays).

I would further suggest doing the reading slow, and taking most of your notes during your library hours rather than in class. Use class time to participate in discussion, and to fill in the gaps from the notes from your library hours. This will make your notes much cleaner and more complete, and you will get a lot more out of discussions in class.

You should also be strategic in your time management - frontload your work early in the semester:
You will have a first year legal writing class. You will probably find that it takes up a disproportionate amount of time with respect to its units. You will probably have several ungraded assignments, then one graded assignment near the end of each semester. What you want to avoid is being overwhelmed later on in the semester when your graded writing assignment is nearing its due date and you are still trying to finish your outlines in time for finals.

Thus, what you need to do is, frontload your work early in the semester. If you are working hard, you may find that you could easily take weekends off during the first half of the semester. DON'T! Use this time to get ahead on your course outlines.

You should aim to get your outlines for all classes completely up to date each weekend up until your graded writing assignment is assigned. Then you will not fall too far behind on outlining while working on the assignment. That should afford you enough time after you turn in the writing assignment to quickly complete all of your outlines by the last day of classes. This will give you the entire "review period" (which, if your school has one, is a window of about a week after the last day of class and before your first exam) to simply focus on memorizing your outlines and taking practice exams (while most of the other poor students will be frantically trying to get their outlines finished).
____________________________________________________

This is law school, not summer camp. In law school, you should be doing the amount of work in one day that you did during a week in undergrad.

Then again, the above mentality is not for all students. Most will go to the thursday night "Bar Reviews" at the local pubs. Most will take a relaxed and carefree attitude merely because they got into a T20 school. Most will think that they can skate by like they did in their undergraduate poly sci classes while still receiving "good" grades.

But remember.. Most students in law school never receive an A grade during their entire legal education.
If you do what everyone else does, expect the same grades.

The choice is yours. Best of luck! =)

-X

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RexAllDay
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby RexAllDay » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:11 pm

I don't see any room in there for fun time :( Since you were #1 I'm guessing you didn't take many sundays off. The question I have is how did you prevent yourself from burning out? I mean you have a pretty full schedule and you even worked hard on weekends. Towards the end of the semester did it catch up to you?

I just wanted to say your posts so far have been very helpful.

snotrocket
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby snotrocket » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:20 pm

Your schedule sounds pretty reasonable overall, but man that ninety minute commute is a killer. If you lived thirty minutes or less from school, then you could have slept six hours a night instead of four (or had time to hit the gym or go for a run every day). The work is not such a big deal, since it's just a matter of doing it. But spending three hours a day in the car would make me want to blow my freakin brains out after a week.

philo-sophia
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby philo-sophia » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:22 pm

Wake up at 6:30am, leave house at 7:30 am (I live in Long Beach, its a 1.5 hr commute).
- Library from 8:00 - 11:30 pm
- Drive home, watch TV for an hour, sleep...


so, by my calculations you sleep 4.5 hours/night? That alone would make it humanly impossible for me to follow your system, but man...i admire your fortitude!

xeoh85
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby xeoh85 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:24 pm

RexAllDay wrote:The question I have is how did you prevent yourself from burning out? I mean you have a pretty full schedule and you even worked hard on weekends. Towards the end of the semester did it catch up to you?

Each person will have to find their own way to cope with the workload and avoid burnouts. The following are a few things that helped me:

1) I have a loving girlfriend whom I live with who takes good care of me (she must love me if she stayed with me through a 1L like this, lol).

2) I always set small goals that fit into the big picture, and attempted to focus on the near term goal if I was feeling a burnout setting in.

3) I always would try to remember that it was only a semester. I would attempt to focus on purely the semester at hand. 15 weeks. Remember the payout at the end. You can do anything for 15 weeks if you are determined enough. After that, enjoy your winter break, and mentally prepare yourself for the next 15 weeks.

4) But more importantly, a competitive spirit is what kept me from burning out. I have always been motivated to be the best.
When I would be the last person to leave the library at midnight, it would re-fuel my motivation and energy.
I was not the last poor sap to finish his work and return home for the day. No no no.
On those late nights when I was the last to leave the law school... I was the last man standing.

As for the sleep issue . . . I would sleep about 12 hours on Sundays. =)
As for the commute . . . I actually enjoyed it. Sirius satellite radio gave me the necessary "down time" I needed to relax my mind a bit.

-X
Last edited by xeoh85 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

philo-sophia
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby philo-sophia » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:26 pm

snotrocket wrote:Your schedule sounds pretty reasonable overall, but man that ninety minute commute is a killer. If you lived thirty minutes or less from school, then you could have slept six hours a night instead of four (or had time to hit the gym or go for a run every day). The work is not such a big deal, since it's just a matter of doing it. But spending three hours a day in the car would make me want to blow my freakin brains out after a week.


^^my thoughts exactly. I would NEED 6+ hours of sleep if i followed this schedule on top of working out (which i need to do to keep my sanity). I also need to drink once/wk. I could do this schedule sunday through thurs. Fortunately for me, it takes 5 mins for me to get to school! 8)

snotrocket
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby snotrocket » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:32 pm

Thanks much for sharing, btw. I have a few more questions on your method, if you don't mind:

1) Study Groups: When you hosted the outlining sessions, I assume you had as good or better command of most of the material compared to whoever else was involved with them. Did you find that the sessions helped you much, or did you feel that you helped your group mates more? Did others bring things up that you had not thought of but that seemed important not to miss? Or did you find that explaining or discussing made things more clear for you?

2) Materials and Methods: Your comments above give some great advice on scheduling and focus in studying. If you have read the article on here called Success in Law School, I wonder how congruent you found that person's approach with yours as far as the things you read and how you put together your outlines. It sounds like you followed many of the same principles, and like you went for the same sort of very tight, rule centered outlines that he talks about. So I wonder what you think of his approach in general, and if you notice anything that worked very differently for you.

snotrocket
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Re: Should I Transfer from UCLA to HYS?

Postby snotrocket » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:43 pm

1) I have a loving girlfriend whom I live with who takes good care of me (she must love me if she stayed with me through a 1L like this, lol).


There was a study I heard about which concluded that one hour of sex was exactly equal to one hour of sleep in terms of physiological healing, resting, and energy recovery effects. Just something to keep in mind.




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