BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

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bewarned

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BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby bewarned » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:36 pm

Current BLS student. Be warned- BLS recently changed the curve DRAMATICALLY. It is currently one of the worst curves in New York (harsher than Fordham, St. John's, Cardozo, and Hofstra). Median GPA for 1L class is below a 3.0. Administration made this change without telling any of the students and waited until 1L grades were released to tell them.

Seriously, be warned. This place is an absolute disaster. And I wasn't even affected by the curve, but I have tons of friends who were. It's horrible.

QContinuum

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby QContinuum » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:54 pm

Thanks for chiming in with this warning. Timely to any 0Ls currently considering which law school to matriculate at!

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby Nuts2u » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:18 pm

bewarned wrote:Current BLS student. Be warned- BLS recently changed the curve DRAMATICALLY. It is currently one of the worst curves in New York (harsher than Fordham, St. John's, Cardozo, and Hofstra). Median GPA for 1L class is below a 3.0. Administration made this change without telling any of the students and waited until 1L grades were released to tell them.

Seriously, be warned. This place is an absolute disaster. And I wasn't even affected by the curve, but I have tons of friends who were. It's horrible.


Current BLS 1L. I’d like to point out that the curve was changed over the summer, before we began our classes. It’s no harsher than a lot of other comparable schools. It doesn’t affect class rank or scholarship renewal, and their policy for that is more liberal than most schools, you just have to be in the top %85. Career services and the faculty don’t seem to be a mess to me, but I’ve definitely made sure to ask for guidance when looking for my summer placement, and maybe I’ve been lucky.

QContinuum

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby QContinuum » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:32 pm

Nuts2u wrote:
bewarned wrote:Current BLS student. Be warned- BLS recently changed the curve DRAMATICALLY. It is currently one of the worst curves in New York (harsher than Fordham, St. John's, Cardozo, and Hofstra). Median GPA for 1L class is below a 3.0. Administration made this change without telling any of the students and waited until 1L grades were released to tell them.

Seriously, be warned. This place is an absolute disaster. And I wasn't even affected by the curve, but I have tons of friends who were. It's horrible.


Current BLS 1L. I’d like to point out that the curve was changed over the summer, before we began our classes.

Even though I'm sure very few students consider a law school's curve when choosing where to matriculate (I think I was a relatively rare exception in actually considering this when I was a 0L), it's still kind of shitty to change the curve after most students are already deposited and locked in. Why couldn't they delay implementing the new curve until the following year's entering class? I don't get the urgency requiring an immediate change.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby objctnyrhnr » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:28 am

This seems like such an odd move for a school that should be trying to HELP its students get jobs. Sure, the top 1/3 can say they’re in the top 1/3 (which could theoretically trump the gpa for many employers), but what about everybody else? There are a number of good firms and clerkships that have strict GPA cutoffs independent of school (for better or worse).

Accordingly, I am wondering what the motivation to do this could possibly be. Any argument in its favor (“we don’t want to get a rep as a school that has grade inflation”) seems to be dramatically outweighed, at least in practice—something the dean’s office might not know much about—by the potential harm that giving your slightly sub median student a sub-3.0 gpa.

Thoughts?

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jsnow212

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby jsnow212 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:46 pm

Literally the only reason a school would do this is because it's getting ticked off that its best are transferring out.

srg1027

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby srg1027 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:59 pm

I am a 0L and am confused by this curve talk. What exactly is the curve and what are it's effects????

objctnyrhnr

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby objctnyrhnr » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:09 pm

srg1027 wrote:I am a 0L and am confused by this curve talk. What exactly is the curve and what are it's effects????


Before you go to law school, you’re probably really going to want to nail down that its vs it’s distinction.

In a given class, maybe 90-95% of students will work extremely hard—at a level which (in a vacuum) would have probably gotten good marks in most classes in undergrad.

Problem is that only 10% of them will be in the top 10%.

Typically, law school grades correlate with how you did relative to the other people in your class, regardless of how objectively good or bad your work is.

So some schools might give top 5% exam an A, next 15% an A-, next 30% a b+, etc etc.

That’s a curve.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby srg1027 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:15 pm

I get that, but what is OP referring to regarding BLS switching their curve??

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objctnyrhnr

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby objctnyrhnr » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:29 pm

srg1027 wrote:I get that, but what is OP referring to regarding BLS switching their curve??


Some schools put their median grade at a B and some put it at a B+ and most do something in between.

Sounds like Brooklyn did the equivalent of changing its median from a B + to a B.

So a student is still 50%ile but now that student has a 3.0.

I can’t comprehend how this doesn’t crush the bottom two thirds of your class (ie people who can’t say top third)

citydweller

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby citydweller » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:27 pm

Can any current students attest to how this has impacted them so far vs. friends who attend other schools in the city?

Pennoyer v. Meh

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby Pennoyer v. Meh » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:12 pm

Per the 509 report, 17 students transferred out this year, versus 21 the year before. So not clear that changing the curve had any effect in that area, as was speculated above. But still an interesting possible explanation.

They did, however, let in only 5 transfers this year, versus 12 the year before.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby citydweller » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:38 pm

Can anyone else attest to how this has impacted them at BL? Was seriously considering going there but this curve is scaring me, especially with conditional scholarships

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cavalier1138

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:00 pm

citydweller wrote:Can anyone else attest to how this has impacted them at BL? Was seriously considering going there but this curve is scaring me, especially with conditional scholarships


Conditional scholarships alone should be scaring you. It's a predatory practice, and you should not attend any school that refuses to waive the conditions.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby decimalsanddollars » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:40 pm

Pennoyer v. Meh wrote:Per the 509 report, 17 students transferred out this year, versus 21 the year before. So not clear that changing the curve had any effect in that area, as was speculated above. But still an interesting possible explanation.

They did, however, let in only 5 transfers this year, versus 12 the year before.


The problem with using the 509 report from this year is that it reflects the number of transfers from last year's 1L class, who were presumably not affected by the curve change this summer. Next year's 509 will give us the data to know whether the curve change reduced transfers out.

Pennoyer v. Meh

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby Pennoyer v. Meh » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:35 pm

decimalsanddollars wrote:The problem with using the 509 report from this year is that it reflects the number of transfers from last year's 1L class, who were presumably not affected by the curve change this summer. Next year's 509 will give us the data to know whether the curve change reduced transfers out.


My impression is that the curve was change for the 2018-19 1Ls; Nuts2u's post gave me that impression at least.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby decimalsanddollars » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:11 am

Pennoyer v. Meh wrote:
decimalsanddollars wrote:The problem with using the 509 report from this year is that it reflects the number of transfers from last year's 1L class, who were presumably not affected by the curve change this summer. Next year's 509 will give us the data to know whether the curve change reduced transfers out.


My impression is that the curve was change for the 2018-19 1Ls; Nuts2u's post gave me that impression at least.


Yes, sorry; misread the OP as from this year. Odd to see such little change in transfers out from the curve change.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby QContinuum » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:06 pm

decimalsanddollars wrote:Yes, sorry; misread the OP as from this year. Odd to see such little change in transfers out from the curve change.

Is it actually "such a little change", though? The transfer numbers are low to begin with, and we're looking only at a single year's data so far since the change, so I want to be cautious not to overinterpret the data, but still, the limited data we have so far is that there is a significant drop in transfers out. Going from 21 transfers out to 17 transfers out may seem like a small change, but it's actually a ~20% drop in transfers out. If this becomes the "new normal" in subsequent years, it would indicate that the new curve is having a significant, detrimental impact on BLS students' ability to transfer out (and, likely, their ability to land BigLaw and other grade-selective positions as well). An almost 20% drop is no joke.

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Re: BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL CURVE

Postby nealric » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:42 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:This seems like such an odd move for a school that should be trying to HELP its students get jobs. Sure, the top 1/3 can say they’re in the top 1/3 (which could theoretically trump the gpa for many employers), but what about everybody else? There are a number of good firms and clerkships that have strict GPA cutoffs independent of school (for better or worse).

Accordingly, I am wondering what the motivation to do this could possibly be. Any argument in its favor (“we don’t want to get a rep as a school that has grade inflation”) seems to be dramatically outweighed, at least in practice—something the dean’s office might not know much about—by the potential harm that giving your slightly sub median student a sub-3.0 gpa.

Thoughts?


One reason why lower-ranked schools tend to have harsher curves is because they need to fail the worst performing students out to keep their bar passage rates up. If you curve to a 3.3 or 3.5, very few students will actually fail. I suppose they could raise the GPA cutoffs for academic dismissal instead, but it seems weird to fail people out for Cs.

At higher ranked schools, even the bottom of the class are usually solid enough test takers to pass the bar, so there's no reason to jettison them. BLS doesn't have accreditation jeopardizing bar passage rates or anything like that, but it's often almost 20% or so below Columbia (78-80% v s 96-98%). It's conceivable that they may be concerned. Looking them up, they were 90% back in 2008 (likely due to better pre-recession applicant pool).

On a somewhat related note, it can be annoying anytime a school changes its grading scale (up or down). Georgetown upped its 1L curve after my 1L year and introduced the A+ grade my 3L year. So my 1L and 2L grades will look worse compared to an equivalent student who graduated 3 years later. Fortunately, I'm far enough along in my career now that grades don't matter much anymore.

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