174 - retake? (No joke!) Forum

[MisterT]

Happy april 1st everyone

So this cycle has been pretty dismal for me - despite having a good lsat score, grades, LORs etc I applied really late in the cycle and have been WL to pretty much everywhere and rejected from the top schools.. The thought of (maybe) attending a school below my numbers and most likely paying full price is becoming less and less attractive.

Given that I have some very minor legal work experience and would be able to work part time for a small office over the summer, to increase my chances next cycle should I a) look for a killer internship or b) retake the LSAT in September so that I am at or (hopefully) above the 75th at all schools?

I know how much hypotheticals are questioned on here but both options would require considerable preparation.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

[UnicornHunter]

Need to give us specific numbers and stuff if you want advice.

[Hornet2011]

What is "really late in the cycle"? If you think you underperformed you are best off to wait a year.

[MisterT]

What is "really late in the cycle"? If you think you underperformed you are best off to wait a year.

Went complete 1/29 at most schools

[MisterT]

Need to give us specific numbers and stuff if you want advice.

Foreign GPA ("average") though this is a whole other story and was the reason for my late application. I'm actually around the top 10% for my major, even got my school to confirm this and wrote an addendum, but LSAC made a seemingly arbitrary evaluation of my grades. Decent softs (not a gold medalist but many leadership positions in extra-curricular activites etc.)

Also i'm a kjd.

[fliptrip]

Need to give us specific numbers and stuff if you want advice.

This. What's your GPA/LSAT? A 174 should have gotten something decent somewhere unless your GPA is extremely low and even then something should have happened.

While we are waiting, don't discount the idea that something aside from your stats kept you out. Maybe you got snuffed out by a really bad recommendation letter or you wrote horrible essays. That stuff can't get you in but they can keep you out.

e: just saw about your GPA. You don't need to retake the LSAT. The LSAT isn't your problem. You should just retake the cycle, make sure everything else in your app is absolutely tight and perfect and hope for the best. Or take a couple of years, get some work experience, and then try this again.

[ihenry]

This cycle is shit for foreign students. It is possible that next year is worse. No joke either.

[MisterT]

This cycle is shit for foreign students. It is possible that next year is worse. No joke either.

How come? What's your source?

[ihenry]

This cycle is shit for foreign students. It is possible that next year is worse. No joke either.

How come? What's your source?

International applicants are on the rise (we are talking about GPA-less people here), but adcomms seem to have quota for this category, especially given that domestic applicants are also on the rise. Just check past years' Standard 509 reports for "#students not included in gpa calculation" and you'll have an idea. Also, I heard that if you are not a u.s. citizen anddo not come from a u.s. undergrad, you may have trouble for OCI interviews, and adcomms may not want these students to impact their employment numbers.

The source for this year's situation is word of mouth. Last year, a 171 got half ride at Georgetown; this year a 172 gets dinged, both without impressive softs. This is just one of the many snowflakes. With your 174, it is very likely that top schools don't want you because they have many other foreign applicants that are "better" than you, and less-than-top schools don't dare to take you so they just YP.

Regarding your Q, how confident are you in pulling 175+? Because I think 175+ will still stand out in foreseeable years to come. If not, I suggest you consider sticking to this cycle and see what happens.

[MisterT]

This cycle is shit for foreign students. It is possible that next year is worse. No joke either.

How come? What's your source?

International applicants are on the rise (we are talking about GPA-less people here), but adcomms seem to have quota for this category, especially given that domestic applicants are also on the rise. Just check past years' Standard 509 reports for "#students not included in gpa calculation" and you'll have an idea. Also, I heard that if you are not a u.s. citizen and do not come from a u.s. undergrad, you may have trouble for OCI interviews, and adcomms may not want these students to impact their employment numbers.

The source for this year's situation is word of mouth. Last year, a 171 got half ride at Georgetown; this year a 172 gets dinged, both without impressive softs. This is just one of the many snowflakes. With your 174, it is very likely that top schools don't want you because they have many other foreign applicants that are "better" than you, and less-than-top schools don't dare to take you so they just YP.

Regarding your Q, how confident are you in pulling 175+? Because I think 175+ will still stand out in foreseeable years to come. If not, I suggest you consider sticking to this cycle and see what happens.

I'm sure there are certain quotas for our kind. Do you mean I got rejected vs another international student who scored higher than a 174? I guess that would be a possibility this late in the cycle. I'm a US citizen btw so finding a job post graduation shouldn't be a problem.

Scoring a 175+ is probably just a function of time invested, at least getting to a 174 was for me. I'm just unsure about investing another summer doing so but if it means I get into a top school then it will of course be worth it..

[kcdc1]

To increase my chances next cycle should I a) look for a killer internship or b) retake the LSAT in September so that I am at or (hopefully) above the 75th at all schools?

I've never understood why people seem to think working and scoring highly on the LSAT are mutually exclusive.

[ihenry]

Yes, LSAT score is a major factor but it could also be for other reasons as well, like academic records being classified as "superior" for whatever reason (ya, ya I know), coming from a more recognized undergrad (like oxbridge), advanced degrees, more WE, etc. Applying late could be a disadvantage too but those of us who submitted in October didn't get a decision until March from most schools either, so while applying early could help, don't expect it to do wonders.

I can't really give you more advice as I haven't figured myself out either. Best of luck anyway.

P.S. I got an "experimental 10 minute citizen ban"! Haven't been on TLS for a while and what kind of new politics is this??

[MisterT]

Yes, LSAT score is a major factor but it could also be for other reasons as well, like academic records being classified as "superior" for whatever reason (ya, ya I know), coming from a more recognized undergrad (like oxbridge), advanced degrees, more WE, etc. Applying late could be a disadvantage too but those of us who submitted in October didn't get a decision until March from most schools either, so while applying early could help, don't expect it to do wonders.

I can't really give you more advice as I haven't figured myself out either. Best of luck anyway.

P.S. I got an "experimental 10 minute citizen ban"! Haven't been on TLS for a while and what kind of new politics is this??

I get what you are saying.. well at least I have one last shot at stellar grades this semester and convincing LSAC that I am actually doing better than those who watch cat videos / have meaningless facebook chats during class and then cram for two weeks before finals and get Bs and Cs.

One thing I do have in my back pocket is a seat at a one year MSc at LSE, so I guess the question becomes do an advanced degree or work somewhere for a year..

Ps. I also got the ban too. Guess it really was an experiment. weird. And good luck to you too if you are still waiting!

[Clyde Frog]

Yes, LSAT score is a major factor but it could also be for other reasons as well, like academic records being classified as "superior" for whatever reason (ya, ya I know), coming from a more recognized undergrad (like oxbridge), advanced degrees, more WE, etc. Applying late could be a disadvantage too but those of us who submitted in October didn't get a decision until March from most schools either, so while applying early could help, don't expect it to do wonders.

I can't really give you more advice as I haven't figured myself out either. Best of luck anyway.

P.S. I got an "experimental 10 minute citizen ban"! Haven't been on TLS for a while and what kind of new politics is this??

I get what you are saying.. well at least I have one last shot at stellar grades this semester and convincing LSAC that I am actually doing better than those who watch cat videos / have meaningless facebook chats during class and then cram for two weeks before finals and get Bs and Cs.

One thing I do have in my back pocket is a seat at a one year MSc at LSE, so I guess the question becomes do an advanced degree or work somewhere for a year..

Ps. I also got the ban too. Guess it really was an experiment. weird. And good luck to you too if you are still waiting!

You just never learn do you, Mister T? I pity the fool...

[asdfdfdfadfas]

To increase my chances next cycle should I a) look for a killer internship or b) retake the LSAT in September so that I am at or (hopefully) above the 75th at all schools?

I've never understood why people seem to think working and scoring highly on the LSAT are mutually exclusive.

They aren't, but it is a grind, especially reading comp. I'd wake up at 5 am, get to the office, study for two hours work 9-10 hours a day on a trade floor, and pound out two or three more hours some nights. I ended up in the high 160s, but it was an absolute grind.

[MisterT]

To increase my chances next cycle should I a) look for a killer internship or b) retake the LSAT in September so that I am at or (hopefully) above the 75th at all schools?

I've never understood why people seem to think working and scoring highly on the LSAT are mutually exclusive.

They aren't, but it is a grind, especially reading comp. I'd wake up at 5 am, get to the office, study for two hours work 9-10 hours a day on a trade floor, and pound out two or three more hours some nights. I ended up in the high 160s, but it was an absolute grind.

Right.. Some people are superheroes, others are just regular mortals. I mean, to do better than 99% usually means putting in more effort than 99%. Though I guess it depends on what time span we are talking about. If you have enough time to prep I can see it as totally doable.

[yenisey]

Happy april 1st everyone

So this cycle has been pretty dismal for me - despite having a good lsat score, grades, LORs etc I applied really late in the cycle and have been WL to pretty much everywhere and rejected from the top schools.. The thought of (maybe) attending a school below my numbers and most likely paying full price is becoming less and less attractive.

Given that I have some very minor legal work experience and would be able to work part time for a small office over the summer, to increase my chances next cycle should I a) look for a killer internship or b) retake the LSAT in September so that I am at or (hopefully) above the 75th at all schools?

I know how much hypotheticals are questioned on here but both options would require considerable preparation.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

174-retake? No joke but insane!

[Foghornleghorn]

1/29 complete is reaaallly late. Reapply.

[MisterT]

1/29 complete is reaaallly late. Reapply.

Unless I get in to Yale that's the plan.. So that's the plan.

[williamtell]

There is no reason to retake the lsat with a 174. No school is going to not accept you because of that LSAT and no school will accept you with a 180 that wouldn't accept you with a 174. Your application obviously hinges on the rest of it. GPA, letters, etc. The late application really wouldn't hurt you enough either. You need to reconsider the rest of your application not your lsat.

[MisterT]

There is no reason to retake the lsat with a 174. No school is going to not accept you because of that LSAT and no school will accept you with a 180 that wouldn't accept you with a 174. Your application obviously hinges on the rest of it. GPA, letters, etc. The late application really wouldn't hurt you enough either. You need to reconsider the rest of your application not your lsat.

That is my worry, but to clarify I don't have a reportable GPA (and no matter what my LSAC evaluation states my grades are really not bad at all, my school confirmed that I was an excellent student - and my school is very reputable (University of Zurich). Plus my LORs are - unless someone had a personal grudge - very good from what my recommenders had me believe. So seeing as those are all highly weighted factors I'm having trouble figuring out whats up. This is my outcome so far:

HLS: reject
Columbia: interview then hold (february hold wave)
Berkeley: reject (said they wouldnt accept a 3 year undergrad program)
Chicago,M,D,P: WL - hoping some of these are YPs

[pterodactyls]

FWIW, the number of LSAT high scorers is up this cycle so it would make sense that foreign students are having worse outcomes. An American student has GPA and LSAT to be considered. If you don't have a U.S. GPA, the only "hard" number (reported to ABA/USNWR) you have for admissions is your LSAT score. If there are more people with high LSAT scores, you're less valuable.

According to Spivey's data, score ranges have increased over last year as follows:

170-174: up 11.5%
175-180 up 23.5%
Total 170-180: up 14%

You can also look at his data to get the breakdown by score. There's a 28% increase this cycle the number of applicants with 174's specifically.
http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2015-16/

Also he made a blog post yesterday about this, worth a read:
http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/underw ... happening/


But I agree with the posters above, there is no guarantee that next cycle will be any better. I think last cycle may have been rock bottom, and we all missed it.

As far as the retake... I personally think that retaking a 174 is crazy, but if you honestly think you can improve your score I guess it could be worth it.

[jnwa]

There is no reason to retake the lsat with a 174. No school is going to not accept you because of that LSAT and no school will accept you with a 180 that wouldn't accept you with a 174. Your application obviously hinges on the rest of it. GPA, letters, etc. The late application really wouldn't hurt you enough either. You need to reconsider the rest of your application not your lsat.

That is my worry, but to clarify I don't have a reportable GPA (and no matter what my LSAC evaluation states my grades are really not bad at all, my school confirmed that I was an excellent student - and my school is very reputable (University of Zurich). Plus my LORs are - unless someone had a personal grudge - very good from what my recommenders had me believe. So seeing as those are all highly weighted factors I'm having trouble figuring out whats up. This is my outcome so far:

HLS: reject
Columbia: interview then hold (february hold wave)
Berkeley: reject (said they wouldnt accept a 3 year undergrad program)
Chicago,M,D,P: WL - hoping some of these are YPs

How old are you..the 3 year undergrad might have been a factor. YP shouldn't really happen because your GPA came back as average.

[ihenry]

There is (almost) no such thing as YP for foreign students. You could very well get into Harvard but get dinged at Penn/Virginia but that's because they don't like foreign students.

[scone]

This is my outcome so far:

HLS: reject
Columbia: interview then hold (february hold wave)
Berkeley: reject (said they wouldnt accept a 3 year undergrad program)
Chicago,M,D,P: WL - hoping some of these are YPs

I got into Berkeley with a 3 year undergrad.

It possibly is worth taking the LSAT again, as you're not above all 75ths. You need to stand out, and a really good LSAT is a way to do that.