Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions Forum

[03152016]

actually 2014, as the dean has explained before, ku is a great choice for applicants from out-of-state

with a "smart job search strategy", ku students can land in top firms in nyc, chi, d.c., and even pheonix
but beware, you'll need to do well in law school and put in a lot of hard work
so you should only pursue this route if you think you'll do well in law school and you're willing to work hard!

since this is a q&a, my question for the dean:
at nine months, was the number of students from the class of 2013 who landed in biglaw higher or lower than the number of students from that class who were completely unemployed?

do you think posts like the one you wrote above have the potential to mislead prospective students?

Actually he didn't say it was a great choice for out-of-state students, just that it was possible to find employment out of the region. Which it is. And he added the caveat that those students who did find out-of-area jobs had to have good grades and put a lot of work into the job search.

How is that misleading?

They even made the 509 into an easily digestible infographic that also includes all NALP data: http://law.ku.edu/employment-statistics

Fucking lol at this "How do you sleep at night?!?" shit towards a state flagship that charges $20k/yr with 120 person classes.

are you seriously so thick as to not understand how optimism bias works?

and are you serious in thinking ku's low in-state tuition and transparency on their website has anything to do at all with holding the dean accountable for deceptive posts on tls?

the fact that you can't distinguish the two tells us everything we need to know about your shitty opinions

[cotiger]

actually 2014, as the dean has explained before, ku is a great choice for applicants from out-of-state

with a "smart job search strategy", ku students can land in top firms in nyc, chi, d.c., and even pheonix
but beware, you'll need to do well in law school and put in a lot of hard work
so you should only pursue this route if you think you'll do well in law school and you're willing to work hard!

since this is a q&a, my question for the dean:
at nine months, was the number of students from the class of 2013 who landed in biglaw higher or lower than the number of students from that class who were completely unemployed?

do you think posts like the one you wrote above have the potential to mislead prospective students?

Actually he didn't say it was a great choice for out-of-state students, just that it was possible to find employment out of the region. Which it is. And he added the caveat that those students who did find out-of-area jobs had to have good grades and put a lot of work into the job search.

How is that misleading?

They even made the 509 into an easily digestible infographic that also includes all NALP data: http://law.ku.edu/employment-statistics

Fucking lol at this "How do you sleep at night?!?" shit towards a state flagship that charges $20k/yr with 120 person classes.

are you seriously so thick as to not understand how optimism bias works?

and are you serious in thinking ku's low in-state tuition and transparency has anything to do at all with holding the dean accountable for deceptive marketing?

the fact that you can't distinguish the two tells us everything we need to know about your shitty opinions

I'm well aware of optimism bias, thanks. But if you're going to get pissed about the KU dean of admissions saying that it's possible to work outside of the midwest because that's a difficult outcome to get, then you should probably be even more pissed about Harvard claiming that you can totally do all these awesome lawyer thing with their degree. Because most likely you're going down into the soul-sucking biglaw mines. I mean fuck, you're highly unlikely to even get a clerkship out of there.

Deceptive marketing.. Jesus christ. It's literally true. It's also true in spirit. The fact that they're highlighting something that perhaps more people want than can reasonably be expected to get it isn't deceptive. If that was the case, then every single T14 should only include stuff about biglaw in their marketing.

[cotiger]

Thanks for the personal attack, by the way.

Also I'm pretty certain that costs and transparency are exactly why there's such vitriol. You're mad because people have been ripped off in the law school world. Yes, in part by deceptive marketing, but even more importantly by skyrocketing costs, a glut of graduates, and bullshit disclosure. If law schools were and had always been free, with limited enrollments and full disclosure, there wouldn't be this kind of backlash and anger at a school saying "hey, it's possible to find work out of state," even if they were deliberately misleading people. That's the connection. You're getting mad at KU for the sins of the TJSLs and even GW and Fordhams of the world.

[03152016]

actually 2014, as the dean has explained before, ku is a great choice for applicants from out-of-state

with a "smart job search strategy", ku students can land in top firms in nyc, chi, d.c., and even pheonix
but beware, you'll need to do well in law school and put in a lot of hard work
so you should only pursue this route if you think you'll do well in law school and you're willing to work hard!

since this is a q&a, my question for the dean:
at nine months, was the number of students from the class of 2013 who landed in biglaw higher or lower than the number of students from that class who were completely unemployed?

do you think posts like the one you wrote above have the potential to mislead prospective students?

Actually he didn't say it was a great choice for out-of-state students, just that it was possible to find employment out of the region. Which it is. And he added the caveat that those students who did find out-of-area jobs had to have good grades and put a lot of work into the job search.

How is that misleading?

They even made the 509 into an easily digestible infographic that also includes all NALP data: http://law.ku.edu/employment-statistics

Fucking lol at this "How do you sleep at night?!?" shit towards a state flagship that charges $20k/yr with 120 person classes.

are you seriously so thick as to not understand how optimism bias works?

and are you serious in thinking ku's low in-state tuition and transparency has anything to do at all with holding the dean accountable for deceptive marketing?

the fact that you can't distinguish the two tells us everything we need to know about your shitty opinions

I'm well aware of optimism bias, thanks. But if you're going to get pissed about the KU dean of admissions saying that it's possible to work outside of the midwest because that's a difficult outcome to get, then you should probably be even more pissed about Harvard claiming that you can totally do all these awesome lawyer thing with their degree. Because most likely you're going down into the soul-sucking biglaw mines. I mean fuck, you're highly unlikely to even get a clerkship out of there.

Deceptive marketing.. Jesus christ. It's literally true. It's also true in spirit. The fact that they're highlighting something that perhaps more people want than can reasonably be expected to get it isn't deceptive. If that was the case, then every single T14 should only include stuff about biglaw in their marketing.

are we even reading the same post?



read the last paragraph. it is a textbook example of exploiting inference creep and near-systemic cognitive error in prospective law students

we agree 100% on t14 schools, and in fact, i think they're often the worst offenders

[lacrossebrother]

What the hell are you talking about Brut? Give this shit a rest. Your, "law school is a scam" shtick is so tired at this point, and to the extent that it might ever be appropriate, it's certainly not in this instance.

[03152016]

Thanks for the personal attack, by the way.

Also I'm pretty certain that costs and transparency are exactly why there's such vitriol. You're mad because people have been ripped off in the law school world. Yes, in part by deceptive marketing, but even more importantly by skyrocketing costs, a glut of graduates, and bullshit disclosure. If law schools were and had always been free, with limited enrollments and full disclosure, there wouldn't be this kind of backlash and anger at a school saying "hey, it's possible to find work out of state," even if they were deliberately misleading people. That's the connection. You're getting mad at KU for the sins of the TJSLs and even GW and Fordhams of the world.

that's a gross overgeneralization and a dishonest/willfully ignorant reading of the dean's post

i never equated ku and fordham, and i never attacked ku for any of those other things you listed
you're lumping me in with some of the other posters in this thread
i am specifically addressing a post made on tls by the dean that is deceptive and that i think he should be held accountable for

we're going round and round and i'm concerned the mods will cut off debate before the dean has a chance to respond
you can have the last word if you'd like it, i'll respond over pm

[03152016]

What the hell are you talking about Brut? Give this shit a rest. Your, "law school is a scam" shtick is so tired at this point, and to the extent that it might ever be appropriate, it's certainly not in this instance.

you're grasping at straws. never said ku was a scam. if you have something actually substantive to say about my post, out with it

i don't have a problem with you spouting your usual empty contrarian rhetoric, but save it for the lounge. the mod thread is a better fit for your reductive textualist concern trolling than the OTs

[TheSpanishMain]

I do enjoy the general "who can be more jaded and outraged" arms race as though a guy from a state law school is a war criminal or something

[cotiger]

Thanks for the personal attack, by the way.

Also I'm pretty certain that costs and transparency are exactly why there's such vitriol. You're mad because people have been ripped off in the law school world. Yes, in part by deceptive marketing, but even more importantly by skyrocketing costs, a glut of graduates, and bullshit disclosure. If law schools were and had always been free, with limited enrollments and full disclosure, there wouldn't be this kind of backlash and anger at a school saying "hey, it's possible to find work out of state," even if they were deliberately misleading people. That's the connection. You're getting mad at KU for the sins of the TJSLs and even GW and Fordhams of the world.

that's a gross overgeneralization and a dishonest/willfully ignorant reading of the dean's post

i never equated ku and fordham, and i never attacked ku for any of those other things you listed
you're lumping me in with some of the other posters in this thread
i am specifically addressing a post made on tls by the dean that is deceptive and that i think he should be held accountable for

we're going round and round and i'm concerned the mods will cut off debate before the dean has a chance to respond
you can have the last word if you'd like it, i'll respond over pm

I mean.. last word is just that I would totally get the indignation if they had been pumping up their international law program or whatever, but this statement just concerns the relatively feasible desire to work outside of the region. Does it imply a world that is more optimistic than reality? For sure. But my expectation of any sort of marketing material is to give a slightly sunnier version of the truth, and this one is easily within reason.

[lacrossebrother]

What the hell are you talking about Brut? Give this shit a rest. Your, "law school is a scam" shtick is so tired at this point, and to the extent that it might ever be appropriate, it's certainly not in this instance.

you're grasping at straws. never said ku was a scam. if you have something actually substantive to say about my post, out with it

i don't have a problem with you spouting your usual empty contrarian rhetoric, but save it for the lounge. the mod thread is a better fit for your reductive textualist concern trolling than the OTs

How am I grasping at straws? If you're not saying it's a scam, I have no idea what you're saying. It's a misrepresentation intended to induce people to attend the school, but not so bad as to be called a scam? Sweet. Your pseudo-intellectual shtick is actually the most grating at this point. Optimism-bias, cognitive error...are you fucking kidding me?

[lacrossebrother]

Moreover, to the extent that myopia is overly-pervasive amongst law school critics on this internet forum, any optimism bias that is exploited, intentionally or not, by law school deans, is more than counteracted by the eeyore effect of the armchair behavioral economists herin.

[03152016]

I do enjoy the general "who can be more jaded and outraged" arms race as though a guy from a state law school is a war criminal or something

you're better than your post, man

i held off on posting in this thread for days because i had no desire for my posts to be lumped in with the ones you're comparing them to
i didn't want to criticize the dean for being the dean of a school with subpar employment numbers because (a) it wouldn't lead anywhere, i expected a non-answer at best, and (b) i didn't think it was fair game considering (i) he's just an admissions dean, and (ii) i thought the thread could be useful as long as the dean was being honest and forthcoming with the community
challenging the dean on lt/ft/jd-required at nine months is completely different than challenging the dean on a post he made, on this forum, that is deceptive and exploits students' cognitive biases

it's entirely reasonable for the dean to boost his school and engage in a little puffery
when the dean's posts cross a certain line, it's entirely reasonable to be critical of those posts

also, i don't see the merit in throwing fruit without adding something substantive to the conversation. like i said, you're better than that

[03152016]

What the hell are you talking about Brut? Give this shit a rest. Your, "law school is a scam" shtick is so tired at this point, and to the extent that it might ever be appropriate, it's certainly not in this instance.

you're grasping at straws. never said ku was a scam. if you have something actually substantive to say about my post, out with it

i don't have a problem with you spouting your usual empty contrarian rhetoric, but save it for the lounge. the mod thread is a better fit for your reductive textualist concern trolling than the OTs

How am I grasping at straws? If you're not saying it's a scam, I have no idea what you're saying. It's a misrepresentation intended to induce people to attend the school, but not so bad as to be called a scam? Sweet. Your pseudo-intellectual shtick is actually the most grating at this point. Optimism-bias, cognitive error...are you fucking kidding me?

sorry i used too many big words buddy

[lacrossebrother]

Ya that's what it is. Stop anchoring.

[03152016]

maybe if i keep posting non-responses i'll convince people i have something meaningful to contribute

-lax

[TheSpanishMain]

I do enjoy the general "who can be more jaded and outraged" arms race as though a guy from a state law school is a war criminal or something

also, i don't see the merit in throwing fruit without adding something substantive to the conversation. like i said, you're better than that

Oh, I'm not talking about you specifically or questioning your reasoning, I'm more just laughing at the overwrought tone of the first few pages

[banjo]

That last paragraph is clearly misleading. Saying "it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to law school" glosses over massive differences in top firm placement between law schools. A better answer would have been, "You know, Kansas is not the best place to go if you want to go to a top firm in NYC, DC, or Chicago. There are certain schools that make that their bread and butter, and you might consider one of those. That said, a few outstanding students at Kansas still manage to land those top firm jobs."

[lacrossebrother]

That last paragraph is clearly misleading. Saying "it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to law school" glosses over massive differences in top firm placement between law schools. A better answer would have been, "You know, Kansas is not the best place to go if you want to go to a top firm in NYC, DC, or Chicago. There are certain schools that make that their bread and butter, and you might consider one of those. That said, a few outstanding students at Kansas still manage to land those top firm jobs."

[03152016]

to lax's edit
no, i don't think that's what's happening here at all
but people are free to judge the post on their own

@spanish
oic

well still, i'll just reiterate that i have no problem with ku in general
i voiced my one, specific concern to the dean that i hope he'll address

[banjo]

That last paragraph is clearly misleading. Saying "it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to law school" glosses over massive differences in top firm placement between law schools. A better answer would have been, "You know, Kansas is not the best place to go if you want to go to a top firm in NYC, DC, or Chicago. There are certain schools that make that their bread and butter, and you might consider one of those. That said, a few outstanding students at Kansas still manage to land those top firm jobs."

Seriously, what's so funny? Why is it wrong to ask a dean to give an answer that's not 100% fluffy marketing?

[Johann]

That last paragraph is clearly misleading. Saying "it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to law school" glosses over massive differences in top firm placement between law schools. A better answer would have been, "You know, Kansas is not the best place to go if you want to go to a top firm in NYC, DC, or Chicago. There are certain schools that make that their bread and butter, and you might consider one of those. That said, a few outstanding students at Kansas still manage to land those top firm jobs."

This isn't the place for this debate you clowns. Maybe Chicago should have to advertise you have to work 80 hour work weeks and on Christmas Eve to pay back this debt. Kansas is the place to go for students from Kansas wanting to be a lawyer in Kansas. There are probably plenty of people this is relevant to on this board. As someone else has already stated - the battle you are fighting is not against Kansas when the dean has volunteered to give even more visibility into something we don't have visibility into its against the GWs and Americans. Also I'd wager over 75% of Kansas law students don't even want to work in biglaw.

[WichitaShocker]

That last paragraph is clearly misleading. Saying "it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to law school" glosses over massive differences in top firm placement between law schools. A better answer would have been, "You know, Kansas is not the best place to go if you want to go to a top firm in NYC, DC, or Chicago. There are certain schools that make that their bread and butter, and you might consider one of those. That said, a few outstanding students at Kansas still manage to land those top firm jobs."

Also I'd wager over 75% of Kansas law students don't even want to work in biglaw.

Safe bet, the largest law firm in Kansas is Foulston Siefkin with just over 90 attorneys

[03152016]

That last paragraph is clearly misleading. Saying "it's not a walk in the park wherever you go to law school" glosses over massive differences in top firm placement between law schools. A better answer would have been, "You know, Kansas is not the best place to go if you want to go to a top firm in NYC, DC, or Chicago. There are certain schools that make that their bread and butter, and you might consider one of those. That said, a few outstanding students at Kansas still manage to land those top firm jobs."

This isn't the place for this debate you clowns. Maybe Chicago should have to advertise you have to work 80 hour work weeks and on Christmas Eve to pay back this debt. Kansas is the place to go for students from Kansas wanting to be a lawyer in Kansas. There are probably plenty of people this is relevant to on this board. As someone else has already stated - the battle you are fighting is not against Kansas when the dean has volunteered to give even more visibility into something we don't have visibility into its against the GWs and Americans. Also I'd wager over 75% of Kansas law students don't even want to work in biglaw.

first, the name of the thread is "Kansas Law Admissions Dean Answers Your Questions". the dean made a questionable post on the forum and i'm asking him to respond to it.
second, i have no issue with uk. i'm not "fighting" them. i admire their pricing model and how transparent they are on their website. i'm hoping this will be a teachable moment for the dean
third, to your uchi example, no one is asking schools to advertise specific student outcomes. however, i would like to see schools refrain from posting in a way that misleads students about outcomes (which, aside from being unfair, undermines the credibility of the dean in the first place)

[MistakenGenius]

First of all, Merry Christmas to everyone and let me also assure Nony that I do have a question for the good Dean here.

I generally like to stay out of the bickering that occurs so regularly on TLS. I'm not going to get involved in this little squabble above beyond saying this. I have often agreed with cotiger in threads and have disagreed with Brut as well (we've even carried debates into PMs on more than one occasion). In this case, I agree completely with Brut. Brut and Banjo have both brought up points that I agree with or would like answered by the Dean. That is all I will say about that because such debates are better served in private messages.

Dean Freedman, first, let me thank you for your willingness to come on here and answer questions to make Kansas more transparent. I do admire you for that. Now, we all know you not only want to clear up questions, but also hope to persuade potential admits because as you said, you've been told Top Law Schools is a widely used resource for new students. I have no problem with that, if you can add to the transparency while simultaneously helping your own school, then we all benefit and more Deans might decide to come here and do the same. So once again, thank you.

So, let me begin my question. In this instance, I will be a student deciding on law schools. I have no qualms about Kansas law based on silly football rivalries. I frankly know nothing about the school or the state of Kansas beyond what I've learned here in this thread. I imagine that is how many out of state students you are targeting feel. I have positive feelings toward state schools with reasonable tuition, and I genuinely would like to know about benefits that your school has to offer me.

Unfortunately, I have concerns about issues that have arisen in this thread. I have now learned that despite the relatively lower tuition of Kansas, at least 75% (accounting for tuition, living expenses, minus your 75th percentile scholarship grant) of your in-state students go into six figure debt to attend your school. As an out of state student, I am even more concerned because my potential debt looms closer to $200,000. This number is extremely troublesome when you consider that 40% of your students are unable to find long-term legal work within 9 months of graduation (minus those 8 solo practitioners you mentioned). Of those with jobs, it seems only a small percentage of those jobs would allow me to service the kind of loans ~75% of your entering class incur to attend, especially considering your school does not seem to offer a well-known, highly regarded LRAP program (if you do, please correct me).

Not only this, but certain things have caused me additional concerns, namely, your unwillingness to discuss your school's report on law school transparency and your misleading language within certain messages (as has been pointed out by Brut and Banjo). We also were presented evidence (that you confirmed the authenticity of) that shows you behaving immature, threatening, and unprofessional toward an immature law applicant, which because you are a Dean and therefore a representative of your school's "brand", unfortunately paints your institution in a poor light.

However, as I said, I know nothing about Kansas beyond this thread, and have no doubt you feel differently about these issues. For the benefit of myself and the other potential students that will one day find this thread and see these less than positive statistics and quotes, I would like to know something. In your personal opinion, what are some good qualities of your school that outweigh these statistics, and furthermore, what else would you say to a potential student to help alleviate his/her concerns?

Once again, thank you and Merry Christmas.

[WheatThins]

I frankly know nothing about the school or the state of Kansas beyond what I've learned here in this thread.

Then this school is not for you. No one, including the dean, would tell you otherwise. Move along.