"Ties" to a market

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d.schoenfeld16
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"Ties" to a market

Postby d.schoenfeld16 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:37 pm

When someone says it is important to have ties to a market in order to secure a job there, does that mean having connections in the legal community, or simply having a reason for spending the foreseeable future living there? (apologies if this is a stupid question)

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20130312
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby 20130312 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Not a stupid question. Ties means you have an excuse to live there (grew up there, SO lives there, family living there). Firms want you to have some connection to the market so that you won't just lateral out of the market after a couple years of working there.

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rinkrat19
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:42 pm

The latter. They apparently think that everyone is going to flee to NYC at the earliest opportunity, wasting all the money they invested in turning you from a useless law school grad into a functional lawyer. So you have to convince them you're there for the long haul for personal reasons. Growing up there, having a significant other with a job there, or having close family there are all strong ties.

ETA: Personally I think it's retarded...I think a compelling explanation that you do NOT want to live in NY should serve as well as ties. I also think "I love snowboarding!" should be sufficient ties to Denver. But unfortunately, I'm not doing the hiring at firms in Portland/Seattle/San Francisco/Denver.
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rad lulz
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:42 pm


d.schoenfeld16
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby d.schoenfeld16 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:53 pm

Thanks all for the quick response

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ThreeRivers
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby ThreeRivers » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:49 pm

I'll be attending a school T20ish (1 is t20 one just outside... haven't made mine up), but I understand in this range there's a decent chance I'll end up living there. I applied to these schools because I really think I would enjoy living there / I know that going in to LS.

I currently don't have any real ties to either area though... would going to school there AND interning there in the summer be sufficient enough for schools to think I won't just bounce. I can understand hesitation if I leave during the summer, but I'm hoping staying year around might take away some of their fears...

rad lulz
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:52 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hoos89
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby hoos89 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:10 pm

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ThreeRivers
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby ThreeRivers » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:32 pm

rad lulz wrote:
ThreeRivers wrote:I'll be attending a school T20ish (1 is t20 one just outside... haven't made mine up), but I understand in this range there's a decent chance I'll end up living there. I applied to these schools because I really think I would enjoy living there / I know that going in to LS.

I currently don't have any real ties to either area though... would going to school there AND interning there in the summer be sufficient enough for schools to think I won't just bounce. I can understand hesitation if I leave during the summer, but I'm hoping staying year around might take away some of their fears...

Depends on the school and market.

So I'm guessing bu / Boston I'd be fine, but not so much in u of m /minneapolis lol

rad lulz
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:35 pm

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5ky
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby 5ky » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:41 pm

hoos89 wrote:Do ties really matter for the bigger markets? (NYC, DC, LA, Chicago, Boston)? I have decent ties to Boston and D.C. but not sure they'll be that helpful, and I don't really have any good ties to bigger secondary markets.


Ties are very important/helpful for DC, LA, Chicago, and Boston. Not as much for NYC, but you need to be able to articulate a decent reason for why you want to be there, and having ties is always a positive.

I might go as far as saying that having strong ties to a non-NYC primary market or two is one of them most valuable assets you can have. Ties might not be as important to a Boston firm as, say, a Cleveland firm, but there's quite a few more jobs to be had in Boston than Cleveland.

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dproduct
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby dproduct » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:54 pm

hoos89 wrote:Do ties really matter for the bigger markets? (NYC, DC, LA, Chicago, Boston)? I have decent ties to Boston and D.C. but not sure they'll be that helpful, and I don't really have any good ties to bigger secondary markets.


I can only vouch for LA ties, but the answer is yes.

I have a quite a few friends (UCLA grads) who are at east coast/midwestern schools and they received - in their opinion - better summer jobs and offers because they did their undergrad at UCLA. From what I gather, interviewers felt that they were more likely to be lifers as opposed to the other kids just looking for the best offer/job.

More importantly, they said that having local ties (anecdotal stories of a market area) made the interviews more intimate/personal/memorable.

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Gail
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby Gail » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:55 pm

hoos89 wrote:Do ties really matter for the bigger markets? (NYC, DC, LA, Chicago, Boston)? I have decent ties to Boston and D.C. but not sure they'll be that helpful, and I don't really have any good ties to bigger secondary markets.


Boston is kind of secondary, isn't it?

NYC it doesn't matter. DC it doesn't matter. Chicago it sort of matters, but it won't when the economy reverts to the mean (oh that's going to get me yelled at)

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hoos89
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby hoos89 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:04 pm

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rad lulz
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:09 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gail
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby Gail » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:10 pm

Bull markets. I'm telling y'all. Bull markets.

Image

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Gail
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby Gail » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:12 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Gail wrote:NYC it doesn't matter. DC it doesn't matter.

From what I've seen at OCI, it matters, but not in the way you think.

NYC - was more ties sensitive this year, as I think they were figuring out that people were using them as a backup market. Even if you could articulate with specificity why you wanted to be there. A couple examples I can think of just on TLS: southern UG, southern law school, good grades, multiple southern offers but none in NYC; midwest UG, midwest T14, IP no offers in NYC, offer in Chi. They're not as ties-sensitive, but if your resume screams that you've spent your whole life in a wildly disparate region, you *may* have problems.

DC - not really ties required (though helpful), as much as a demonstrated commitment (not BS) to some of the more specialized work they do there (admin and antitrust come to mind).

Sure, they're less ties sensitive, but it's a blatant falsehood to say that it doesn't matter for either market.


Well that's why 2Ls are better at predicting than my kind.

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5ky
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby 5ky » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:16 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Gail wrote:NYC it doesn't matter. DC it doesn't matter.

From what I've seen at OCI, it matters, but not in the way you think.

NYC - was more ties sensitive this year, as I think they were figuring out that people were using them as a backup market. Even if you could articulate with specificity why you wanted to be there. A couple examples I can think of just on TLS: southern UG, southern law school, good grades, multiple southern offers but none in NYC; midwest UG, midwest T14, IP no offers in NYC, offer in Chi. They're not as ties-sensitive, but if your resume screams that you've spent your whole life in a wildly disparate region, you *may* have problems.

DC - not really ties required (though helpful), as much as a demonstrated commitment (not BS) to some of the more specialized work they do there (admin and antitrust come to mind).

Sure, they're less ties sensitive, but it's a blatant falsehood to say that it doesn't matter for either market.


I agree with all of this, particularly the DC aspect.

edit: I'm not from the east coast, and have never spent any significant portion of time there. I generally did not have an issue convincing firms that I wanted to come to NYC (insert general want-to-do-corporate-and-there's-no-better-place-than-NYC-for-that). That being said, I was almost always asked, and a few firms pushed back on me a bit and pressed for further justifications. Ultimately it might not matter, but I did not have a terribly strong reason other than what I said above, so those interviews where the firm pushed back thus started off with a bad first step, which did not help.
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AreJay711
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:19 pm

rad lulz wrote:
DC - not really ties required (though helpful), as much as a demonstrated commitment (not BS) to some of the more specialized work they do there (admin and antitrust come to mind).


5ky wrote:
I agree with all of this, particularly the DC aspect.


How helpful are ties to D.C. really? Enough to make up for not being in the top 1/3 of your class? Or is more important for the less grade selective D.C. firms with relatively small classes?

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5ky
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby 5ky » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:22 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
DC - not really ties required (though helpful), as much as a demonstrated commitment (not BS) to some of the more specialized work they do there (admin and antitrust come to mind).


5ky wrote:
I agree with all of this, particularly the DC aspect.


How helpful are ties to D.C. really? Enough to make up for not being in the top 1/3 of your class? Or is more important for the less grade selective D.C. firms with relatively small classes?


My personal experience would be to say that no, DC "ties" would not make up for being top 1/3. I was better than that and had pretty good DC "ties" and did poorly there.

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IAFG
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby IAFG » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:23 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
DC - not really ties required (though helpful), as much as a demonstrated commitment (not BS) to some of the more specialized work they do there (admin and antitrust come to mind).


5ky wrote:
I agree with all of this, particularly the DC aspect.


How helpful are ties to D.C. really? Enough to make up for not being in the top 1/3 of your class? Or is more important for the less grade selective D.C. firms with relatively small classes?

It's not that ties will give you a boost, it's that they will be something someone with the right "credentials" will have to overcome. It has also been said that DC ties are less about personal connections (which is important in, say, St. Louis) and more about having good reasons to want to do DC practice.

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5ky
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby 5ky » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:25 pm

IAFG wrote:It's not that ties will give you a boost, it's that they will be something someone with the right "credentials" will have to overcome. It has also been said that DC ties are less about personal connections (which is important in, say, St. Louis) and more about having good reasons to want to do DC practice.


Yeah, I think that saying "my wife's family grew up there and we want to move to the area" or "I grew up in the area (but left for UG and law school)" is going to do a lot less work in DC than other places.

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hoos89
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby hoos89 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:26 pm

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Guchster
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby Guchster » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:28 pm

This question seems to be clarified here, adequately. Feel free to "search forum" with the word "ties" to see more threads about this and more poasters opinions.

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AreJay711
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Re: "Ties" to a market

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:29 pm

hoos89 wrote:
5ky wrote:
IAFG wrote:It's not that ties will give you a boost, it's that they will be something someone with the right "credentials" will have to overcome. It has also been said that DC ties are less about personal connections (which is important in, say, St. Louis) and more about having good reasons to want to do DC practice.


Yeah, I think that saying "my wife's family grew up there and we want to move to the area" or "I grew up in the area (but left for UG and law school)" is going to do a lot less work in DC than other places.


Well damn too bad I'm from VA.


lol yeah, I feel the same way.




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