OFFICIAL 2011 DIFFICULTIES OF MAJORS (Brought to you by KFC) Forum

[fltanglab]

Lol. This thread amuses me. I've never heard of science people thinking English majors are hipsters, although I suppose there's some truth in it. Sometimes in English class I am surprised at the stuff that people say. I am an English major who believes there are right answers...well, at least answers that are better supported by the text than others. Picking the answer with less support makes for a weaker argument and results in a lower grade most of the time.

[Blessedassurance]

In the hard sciences it’s the professor’s responsibility to challenge the students. In an English program the onus is sometimes on the student. But there’s nothing wrong with this. I’ve met many science-minded people who deride the humanities, but their arguments are always fallacious and usually stem from (1) frustration caused by ignorance, (2) frustration caused by prior failure, or (3) frustration caused by lack of talent.

You seem to be suffering from number one. Some useful things that the study of English entail are logic, rhetoric, and grammar. None of these arts are simple and to declare them so only reveals something about you yourself. An idea can always be refined, an argument can always be tighter, and a paper can always be written better.

The study of English has no more to do with logic than the study of French or Arabic. You should learn to argue based on my assertions and desist from ad hominem attacks. I was actually a newspaper editor but that's besides the point. Give me something to argue against besides your attempts at clairvoyance.

First they argue that the study of English does not entail grammar. Now, you argue it does, which serves to prove my point. H.L Mencken found the study of English particularly useless, which of the three categories would he fall under? The onus is on the student because there is nothing to "teach".

The need to enroll in a university (sometimes, at the tax-payers' expense) to learn grammar is merely a consequence of the lowering of pre-collegiate educational standards in the United States.

See Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind"

[Cupidity]

[ ad hominem

How adorably 0L

See Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind"

Third best book I've ever read.

[fltanglab]

In the hard sciences it’s the professor’s responsibility to challenge the students. In an English program the onus is sometimes on the student. But there’s nothing wrong with this. I’ve met many science-minded people who deride the humanities, but their arguments are always fallacious and usually stem from (1) frustration caused by ignorance, (2) frustration caused by prior failure, or (3) frustration caused by lack of talent.

You seem to be suffering from number one. Some useful things that the study of English entail are logic, rhetoric, and grammar. None of these arts are simple and to declare them so only reveals something about you yourself. An idea can always be refined, an argument can always be tighter, and a paper can always be written better.

The study of English has no more to do with logic than the study of French or Arabic. You should learn to argue based on my assertions and desist from ad hominem attacks. I was actually a newspaper editor but that's besides the point. Give me something to argue against besides your attempts at clairvoyance.

First they argue that the study of English does not entail grammar. Now, you argue it does, which serves to prove my point. H.L Mencken found the study of English particularly useless, which of the three categories would he fall under? The onus is on the student because there is nothing to "teach".

The need to enroll in a university (sometimes, at the tax-payers' expense) to learn grammar is merely a consequence of the lowering of pre-collegiate educational standards in the United States.

See Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind"

I don't think the study of English involves grammar except in using correct grammar when writing essays. I don't know about actually developing "logic" through studying English, but studying a primary language is different from studying a second language (assuming one is not fluent already). I'm not particularly sure what an English professor teaches besides the meaning within a work or sometimes how to write better. I generally rely on my professor for feedback on my writing ability and analytical skills and little else. But I think I'm not a representative person within the major either, so maybe other people think differently.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

In the hard sciences it’s the professor’s responsibility to challenge the students. In an English program the onus is sometimes on the student. But there’s nothing wrong with this. I’ve met many science-minded people who deride the humanities, but their arguments are always fallacious and usually stem from (1) frustration caused by ignorance, (2) frustration caused by prior failure, or (3) frustration caused by lack of talent.

You seem to be suffering from number one. Some useful things that the study of English entail are logic, rhetoric, and grammar. None of these arts are simple and to declare them so only reveals something about you yourself. An idea can always be refined, an argument can always be tighter, and a paper can always be written better.

The study of English has no more to do with logic than the study of French or Arabic. You should learn to argue based on my assertions and desist from ad hominem attacks. I was actually a newspaper editor but that's besides the point. Give me something to argue against besides your attempts at clairvoyance.

First they argue that the study of English does not entail grammar. Now, you argue it does, which serves to prove my point. H.L Mencken found the study of English particularly useless, which of the three categories would he fall under? The onus is on the student because there is nothing to "teach".

The need to enroll in a university (sometimes, at the tax-payers' expense) to learn grammar is merely a consequence of the lowering of pre-collegiate educational standards in the United States.

See Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind"

I was an English major, and I was never in a class that learned about grammar. If you are trying to slam English majors by saying that the subject is weak because it includes the basics of language (grammar, syntax, and so on), you would also have to slam other subjects--"Man, majoring in math must be so simple. I mean, can't you stupid idiots remember how to add and subtract from elementary school?"

You seem to have a skewed understanding of what most upper-division English classes entail.

ETA: my post, the one I quoted, and the one it quoted all used the word "entail." I get bonus English major nerd points for that.

[albusdumbledore]

So it's just reading about what some other guy read about?

Yeah that seems right. The professionalization of philosophy is surely the death of it creating anything anyone will care about. This coming from a philosophy major.

Nah, that's not true. People don't care about philosophy because they have no idea what it is, nor do most people have the wherewithal to understand it. This coming from a philosophy major.

I enjoy philosophy, but I haven't studied it in a college environment. My questions would be to you what the goal of philosophical scholarship is, and if indeed the onus for education falls primarily on the students in these sorts of fields, why pay northwards of 30 grand a year when you could educate yourself by wrestling with the ideas? The privilege of debating it in an academic environment?

That's a good point and one that was made to me by one of my professors when I was looking to go for a grad degree in it (the law field is nothing compared to the bad job prospects that philosophy has). FWIW, I have a CS degree with a Math minor too. That being said, I think there's a place for philosophical scholarship. It advances the field like in any other concentration. It's kind of disturbing to me that liberal arts fields are dying.

[Blessedassurance]

It's kind of disturbing to me that liberal arts fields are dying.

It is disturbing but that has more to do with the ever-increasing cost of education. From a cost-benefit perspective, it doesn't make sense to invest that much money for personal enrichment or the capacity to hold an intellectual conversation concerning abstract concepts in a bar. Especially with the advent of Google and Wikipedia.

Of course the irony is the fact that part of the reason for the outrageous tuition at Law Schools is the need to subsidize the study of such majors at an advanced level.

[UML]

The study of English has no more to do with logic than the study of French or Arabic. You should learn to argue based on my assertions and desist from ad hominem attacks.

The study of French and Arabic literature has just as much to do with logic as the study of English literature does. In fact, an English major is probably required to study work of Arabic or French origin. English papers typically require a person to put forth an opinion and defend it, which requires rhetoric, which requires argumentation, which requires logic...especially informal logic, the kind that is relevant to the LSAT.

I did argue from your assertions and I explicitly answered the question you asked. And you don't have to be a clairvoyant to reach my conclusions, you merely read what you wrote in this thread.

Ad Hominem? Please. If you would have majored in English perhaps you would know that an Ad Hominem attack is only fallacious if it is used as a tool to end a dialogue prematurely.

I was actually a newspaper editor but that's besides the point.

Yes, it is.

First they argue that the study of English does not entail grammar. Now, you argue it does, which serves to prove my point. H.L Mencken found the study of English particularly useless, which of the three categories would he fall under? The onus is on the student because there is nothing to "teach".

Do not think that by grammar I mean the eight parts of speech. Working to master grammatical rules is one part of being an English major, but it goes far beyond that...think more along the lines of Noam Chomsky's linguistic work.

Since you bring him up, Alan Bloom didn't seem to have a problem studying and teaching English...he just had a few complaints about the state of affairs.

Here is my argument for you to refute: If you want to go to college to become an educated person, rather than to be trained for a trade, majoring in either English or Philosophy or enrolling in a true, classical liberal art program such as the one at St. John's--Annapolis can all be excellent ways to learn how to effectively participate in "the great conversation."

[abl]

But I sure hope adcomms recognize that an engineering student from Purdue went through a much more rigorous curriculum than an engineering student from Yale.

I can't tell if this is serious or not.

[bjsesq]

ITT: blessedassurance tries to show everyone how super smart it is. Nobody cares.

[NZA]

Philosophy / Political Theory / Religion > > > Anything

YES.

Pretty much. I'd make this edit, however.

Philosophy is the only system that is capable of recursive dialogue with itself. All forms of knowledge we have today are essentially philosophy's bastard children.

I like to imagine Philosophy as Zeus: all other sciences and fields rise when He enters the room, and ought to address him as Father, King of the Gods.

LOL! Obviously not familiar with the scientific method, which could basically be the definition of recursive

Really? How do you quantify the scientific method? How do you empirically test that which is not empirical?

You can't.

And you just demonstrated my point for me. Thank you, science.

[NZA]

Philosophy / Political Theory / Religion > > > Anything

YES.

Pretty much. I'd make this edit, however.

Philosophy is the only system that is capable of recursive dialogue with itself. All forms of knowledge we have today are essentially philosophy's bastard children.

I like to imagine Philosophy as Zeus: all other sciences and fields rise when He enters the room, and ought to address him as Father, King of the Gods.

Hey, just because I spent all my time reading Augustine and Plato instead of Derida doesn't mean I deserve a strike-out.

I didn't mean to offend. I just meant to emphasize the fact that Philosophy is greater than Political Theory and Religion.

[fltanglab]

ITT: blessedassurance tries to show everyone how super smart it is. Nobody cares.

this.

[sundance95]

What about BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION bros?

i heard thats how u get a job at goldman saks 5th ave

[BackToTheOldHouse]

ITT: blessedassurance tries to show everyone how super smart it is. Nobody cares.

this.

Blessedassurance is fucking stupid and has no assurance of blessedness.

[lawgod]

Do you think schools balance the difficulty of your major against the bad judgment you showed by choosing a hard major if you wanted to go to law school?

[PDaddy]

I'm sure adcomms recognize the relative strengths and weaknesses of various schools and view them accordingly. A student from Yale is generally going to be looked at more favorably than a student from Purdue and rightfully so for many degrees. But I sure hope adcomms recognize that an engineering student from Purdue went through a much more rigorous curriculum than an engineering student from Yale.

As would a drama student from NYU, UCLA, Yale, U-Washington, or UCSD have navigated a much rougher road than counterparts at other scxhools.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

Do you think schools balance the difficulty of your major against the bad judgment you showed by choosing a hard major if you wanted to go to law school?

This is an awesome idea.

[PDaddy]

Do you think schools balance the difficulty of your major against the bad judgment you showed by choosing a hard major if you wanted to go to law school?

This is an awesome idea.

smh. Huh? The two cannot be "balanced" against each other, as they are essentially one in the same. If you are saying that choosing a tough major makes you dedicated, then there's nothing to excuse. Less-than-stellar performance is irrelevant, while stellar performance is to be applauded. On the other hand, if you're saying that choosing a tough major is insanity, how could the difficulty of the major make up for the choice unless one does well anyways? That would present a paradox because either situation leads to the same result: a difficult major only matters if you do well...perceptions about one's judgment be damned.

[dkt4]

Do you think schools balance the difficulty of your major against the bad judgment you showed by choosing a hard major if you wanted to go to law school?

This is an awesome idea.

plus fucking 1

[tyro]

Sociology should be on there too. Easier than psych by a lot, but harder than Crim Justice. And way harder than English which was a joke at my UG. All you had to do was pay attention in class to what the prof thought was important, then write a paper in which your opinion was identical to the prof's and you got an A, or at least a B for slacking. At least at sociology you could write a paper which disagreed with the prof and provided you had stats to back you up you could get an A. Not saying it was hard to BS, but still harder than English which was entirely subjective.

Sociology is on there! Under the social studies category. I would agree that soc is easier than psych but at least for me, English was slightly harder than both of them to get an "A" in. I only got along with one of my Engl professors though so this might have had something to do with it. Thinking back, the material in Engl was probably the easiest of all, but the grading was less inflated.

[Blessedassurance]

ITT: blessedassurance tries to show everyone how super smart it is. Nobody cares.

It always amazes me when people go to great lengths to let other people know that they don't care.

[ThomasMN]

The English major thought he was neat through his use of entail. Since when did that become upper level vocab of any kind?

I think the reason some people hold things against English majors is that they tend to live in a world of fiction. Fiction based on the world at certain points and time, but fiction none the less. I admit my bias though; I am a history major. We read a lot ( often a lot of the older novels that English majors read), write a lot, and our arguments revolve around things that actually happened in the world.

It also seems to me to be a little weird to only major in English. Every English major that I know personally is at the very least a double major.

[Deuce]

ITT: blessedassurance tries to show everyone how super smart it is. Nobody cares.

It always amazes me when people go to great lengths to let other people know that they don't care.

That wasn't too long, I read it

[NZA]

ITT: blessedassurance tries to show everyone how super smart it is. Nobody cares.

It always amazes me when people go to great lengths to let other people know that they don't care.

That wasn't too long, I read it

EL OH EL.