168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

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nykid628
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168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby nykid628 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:24 pm

I finished my UG studies back in May 2010 and am considering my options for law schools moving forward. I finished UG at Columbia with a 4.0 GPA, and I think my 168 was an extremely strong score on a personal level (not the world's greatest standardized test taker), so I'm not really sure how much re-taking it would improve my current situation. My softs are pretty weak--average internships during college, a year of work in the consulting field after graduation, and tutoring underprivileged kids during the weekend, nothing remarkable and no real extracurriculars during UG.

I know the T-14 schools would be a pretty immense reach for a candidate like me. How would I fare in applying to some schools just below the T-14 (or even the tail-end of the T-14)? In terms of future career paths, I would love a shot at big law (dime a dozen, I know) but am also open to going into public interest. Any input on my chances and/or options would be greatly appreciated... I'm kind of a novice when it comes to this stuff.

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Whiskeyjack
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Whiskeyjack » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:19 pm

Lower T14 at sticker is hardly any reach at all, you've got a very reasonable shot at GULC and probably Cornell as well. T15-20 you'd be pretty solid for admittance, just a question of whether or not you'd get any scholarship offers. What markets are you interested in practicing in? That makes a difference. If you know that you want to work in a specific market you could pick a regional school that places well there, ASU/UofA in Phoenix for example. With your numbers you'd be a shoe in for nearly a full ride to any number of respectable regional schools.

Also, I know you said that you're quite pleased on a personal level with a 168, but keep the possibility of a retake in mind. If you sign up for the October LSAT and study your ass off between now and then who knows what could happen. There is plenty of great LSAT advice to be found on this forum. If you can get your practice test average up into the 170s then it might be worth retaking in October. Even a 2 point boost would open up a ton of doors for you. If studying for a few months doesn't boost your scores then you can just forget about the retake and apply with your original score, no harm done.

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AreJay711
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:21 pm

I got $ at Michigan with worse numbers and a ED app. I think you are only really out at HYS.

Questions4people
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Questions4people » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:24 pm

Just wondering why everyone thinks he's out at the top of the T14s, his GPA can't get better and his LSAT is fairly high, is it because he's lower than a 170? Is it a lack of extracurricular?

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bk1
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby bk1 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:27 pm

Questions4people wrote:Just wondering why everyone thinks he's out at the top of the T14s, his GPA can't get better and his LSAT is fairly high, is it because he's lower than a 170? Is it a lack of extracurricular?


He's got a rough time at HYS because is LSAT is a little low for all of them (mainly why H is rough) and his softs are weak (which is why Y/S are rough).

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tyro
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby tyro » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:31 pm

I see someone on LSN with a 4.0/168 and elite undergrad who got into both Columbia and NYU.

duckmoney
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby duckmoney » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:36 pm

Chicago and NYU are possible. Columbia is much less likely. Wait for schools to release their LSAT bands for the class of 2014. You have a decent shot at any school where you are at or above the 25th percentile LSAT. Anything below that is much less likely; these spots are usually reserved for legacies and URMs and people with spectacular softs.

You will be an admit with money at any school where your LSAT is at or above median. Top dollar at schools where you're above 75th LSAT.

Theheat633
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Theheat633 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:26 am

Same LSAT as OP. But 2 yrs of WE and 3.96LSDAS gpa. When will we know the 2011 LSAT bands? Hopefully Chicago or NYU dips their 25th % to 168 and we can ED there.

nykid628
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby nykid628 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:18 am

bk1 wrote:
Questions4people wrote:Just wondering why everyone thinks he's out at the top of the T14s, his GPA can't get better and his LSAT is fairly high, is it because he's lower than a 170? Is it a lack of extracurricular?


He's got a rough time at HYS because is LSAT is a little low for all of them (mainly why H is rough) and his softs are weak (which is why Y/S are rough).


Yeah, I have kind of resigned myself to being out of the running for HYS and NYU/Columbia. The schools I am most interested in are Michigan, UPenn, and Cornell. I know they're all reaches due to the ever-increasing application influx, but am still curious to see how other people with similar numbers fared in applying to these types of schools.

I'm definitely not adopting a T-14 or bust mentality, for someone with my numbers, I think that would be spectacularly unhealthy. I also like BU, have heard great things about it, and to a lesser extent, Fordham. Would my outlook be good for BU? As far as regional schools go, I have a lot of family in Philly and I like the city, so I could see myself attending Temple and eventually working in Philly. I'm pretty sure I'd get good money at Temple.

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Helicio
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Helicio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:30 am

nykid628 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Questions4people wrote:Just wondering why everyone thinks he's out at the top of the T14s, his GPA can't get better and his LSAT is fairly high, is it because he's lower than a 170? Is it a lack of extracurricular?


He's got a rough time at HYS because is LSAT is a little low for all of them (mainly why H is rough) and his softs are weak (which is why Y/S are rough).


Yeah, I have kind of resigned myself to being out of the running for HYS and NYU/Columbia. The schools I am most interested in are Michigan, UPenn, and Cornell. I know they're all reaches due to the ever-increasing application influx, but am still curious to see how other people with similar numbers fared in applying to these types of schools.

I'm definitely not adopting a T-14 or bust mentality, for someone with my numbers, I think that would be spectacularly unhealthy. I also like BU, have heard great things about it, and to a lesser extent, Fordham. Would my outlook be good for BU? As far as regional schools go, I have a lot of family in Philly and I like the city, so I could see myself attending Temple and eventually working in Philly. I'm pretty sure I'd get good money at Temple.


You'll get into Duke and Cornell probably. (Pick Duke for good weather, bball games, and a much lower rate of suicide). :)

*BLATANT DUKE TROLLING*^^^^

nykid628
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby nykid628 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:04 pm

I didn't mention it before, but I am a male of 100% Puerto Rican descent. Not sure what that would mean for my chances except maybe offsetting areas of deficiency (namely my softs). Would appreciate if anyone could weigh in on how my ethnicity would impact my chances. How much does this help?

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Helicio
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Helicio » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:06 pm

nykid628 wrote: How much does this help?


It makes you a URM.

(In other words, it helps you a lot.)

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby splitmuch » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:08 pm

nykid628 wrote:I didn't mention it before, but I am a male of 100% Puerto Rican descent. Not sure what that would mean for my chances except maybe offsetting areas of deficiency (namely my softs). Would appreciate if anyone could weigh in on how my ethnicity would impact my chances. How much does this help?


Well now youre looking at money everywhere and good chance at getting in to HYS.

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby duckmoney » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:13 pm

nykid628 wrote:I didn't mention it before, but I am a male of 100% Puerto Rican descent. Not sure what that would mean for my chances except maybe offsetting areas of deficiency (namely my softs). Would appreciate if anyone could weigh in on how my ethnicity would impact my chances. How much does this help?


GAMECHANGER

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Law Sauce
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:30 pm

try everywhere, go to Havard

nykid628
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby nykid628 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:32 pm

splitmuch wrote:
nykid628 wrote:I didn't mention it before, but I am a male of 100% Puerto Rican descent. Not sure what that would mean for my chances except maybe offsetting areas of deficiency (namely my softs). Would appreciate if anyone could weigh in on how my ethnicity would impact my chances. How much does this help?


Well now youre looking at money everywhere and good chance at getting in to HYS.



OK, I'm really out of the loop with law school admissions if there's a shot of me being admitted to a T-6 school. I knew being Puerto Rican would help me somewhere in the T-20, but didn't realize it could be that much of a boost. A lot of my pessimism about applying to the elite comes from a complete lack of extracurricular involvement at Columbia UG. I was basically a ghost on campus. Worked to finance my education (I come from a fairly disadvantaged background) and studied my butt off to perform well academically. I always thought the URM candidates to the T-10 were among the brightest people of color in the entire country--superstars in and out of the classroom. Still not so sure I would stick out. I have a year of post-grad work experience in consulting, but not at a big 4 like McKinsey or BCG. I wasn't a leader on my UG campus, never coordinated a diversity or charity event. Still think that might hurt my chances... only really started doing community service after UG.

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bk1
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:48 pm

nykid628 wrote:OK, I'm really out of the loop with law school admissions if there's a shot of me being admitted to a T-6 school. I knew being Puerto Rican would help me somewhere in the T-20, but didn't realize it could be that much of a boost. A lot of my pessimism about applying to the elite comes from a complete lack of extracurricular involvement at Columbia UG. I was basically a ghost on campus. Worked to finance my education (I come from a fairly disadvantaged background) and studied my butt off to perform well academically. I always thought the URM candidates to the T-10 were among the brightest people of color in the entire country--superstars in and out of the classroom. Still not so sure I would stick out. I have a year of post-grad work experience in consulting, but not at a big 4 like McKinsey or BCG. I wasn't a leader on my UG campus, never coordinated a diversity or charity event. Still think that might hurt my chances... only really started doing community service after UG.


You have an amazing shot at the T6 because you are a URM. They really won't care that you never coordinated a diversity or charity even. Plenty of URMs get a URM boost without having a lick of anything talking about their race in their application other than their diversity statement. Check out the URMs on http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com to get an idea of how big a boost it is and have no doubt that it will apply to you (though it will probably be slightly less than the boost an AA gets, you should still use all URMs as a guide for what to expect).

All T10 students (not just the URMs) are the people with the highest GPAs and LSATs in the country. I don't think that makes them superstars or even bright at all (but maybe you do, the question is do you really think that a high college GPA or high LSAT is that impressive?). If you care about your future employment prospects, you really should strive for HYS (or a large scholarship to a lower school if you would prefer that). Look at law school from a utilitarian perspective.

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Law Sauce
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:04 pm

nykid628 wrote:
splitmuch wrote:
nykid628 wrote:I didn't mention it before, but I am a male of 100% Puerto Rican descent. Not sure what that would mean for my chances except maybe offsetting areas of deficiency (namely my softs). Would appreciate if anyone could weigh in on how my ethnicity would impact my chances. How much does this help?


Well now youre looking at money everywhere and good chance at getting in to HYS.



OK, I'm really out of the loop with law school admissions if there's a shot of me being admitted to a T-6 school. I knew being Puerto Rican would help me somewhere in the T-20, but didn't realize it could be that much of a boost. A lot of my pessimism about applying to the elite comes from a complete lack of extracurricular involvement at Columbia UG. I was basically a ghost on campus. Worked to finance my education (I come from a fairly disadvantaged background) and studied my butt off to perform well academically. I always thought the URM candidates to the T-10 were among the brightest people of color in the entire country--superstars in and out of the classroom. Still not so sure I would stick out. I have a year of post-grad work experience in consulting, but not at a big 4 like McKinsey or BCG. I wasn't a leader on my UG campus, never coordinated a diversity or charity event. Still think that might hurt my chances... only really started doing community service after UG.


Doesnt really matter that much. Strong numbers from a strong UG with a URM boost is what matters. If PR counts as URM, which people are saying it does. URM boost is huge. And your GPA cannot be better so that will help a schools median even if your lsat hurts. You should be golden for all but S and Y (which do really require you to be exceptional in other ways) for H, and all the rest, numbers will do. And your URM status should compensate for your lsat to some extent. H is a reach but possible. Still try S and Y but dont hope for too much and definately aim for Columbia, Chicago, NYU, and mvp or b. You will almost definately get at least one or two t14s and I would be surprised (although its possible) if you didnt get a t6 or even H.

Your gpa is so great because it puts you over the gpa median everywhere. this helps regardless of lsat because schools game the rankings to game their medians (not means remember). Thus, helping one median is a bigger plus than hurting the other. For instance, for the following candidates:

175, 3.3
175, 3.3
164, 3.9
167, 4.0
175, 3.1
173, 3.7
168, 4.0

The medians are 173, 3.7 even though a 173, 3.7 candidate is stronger than any of the candidates except one.

This is extremely relative to the schools medians, but for Harvard whose medians are probably around 174, 3.9 or something. Your 4.0 is a bigger boost than your 168 is a negative. You help a median. Coupled with 176, 3.5 you would balance each other out. This works for H because they care about # (probably because of their size idk) but Y and S are pickier with ECs.

The fact that your numbers are relative to a schools medians are also important for scholarships which frequently go to candidates who raise both medians. For instance, your 168, 4.0 has a better chance for admission at Harvard than a candidate with a 172, 3.8 because they pull down both medians. But at a school where the medians are 171, 3.7 (maybe Chicago), this other candidate has a good shot at getting a big scholarship because she helps both medians of that school. Maybe even a full ride. (With a 180, 3.65, this same student may not have gotten nearly the scholarship even though many would say that this would be a stronger combination of credentials and may get her into Y or H whereas she would not have gotten in with her original 172, 3.8 )

Your 168, 4.0, on the other hand, may have good shot at admissions but very little chance for any scholarships at this school with the 171, 3.7 medians. In other words, based on numbers alone (not including URM), you may get in great schools, but probably wont get money at many schools that have lsat medians higher than 168.

This is all based on numbers which nearly always determines where you will end up. The exception to this is perhaps really extreme splitters or reverse-splitters, people with ridiculous past accomplishments, or URMs. URMs get a huge boost. And oftentimes even having one median is good enough for URMs to be admitted with scholarships. This is because schools want to show diversity and if they can do that without hurting a median than they will pay greatly for that.

In other words, if you qualify as a URM, you are in great great shape. apply to all of the t14 but shoot for t6 and H.

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Law Sauce
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:19 pm

Also as a reverse splitter URM, don't be surprised if weird things happen. For instance, In at H, Rejected at S, Rejected at Columbia, In a Chicago with 30k, In at NYU with no money, WL at Penn, In at Michigan with 45k, In at Virginia with Full Ride, In at Berkeley with Full ride, In at Duke with 54k, Rejected at Northwestern, In at Cornell with no money, WL at Gtown, In at Vandy with 30k. Or something.

URM and reverse splitter is very unpredictable.

Also, it is all relative to the medians....

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby nykid628 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:27 pm

bk1 wrote:
nykid628 wrote:OK, I'm really out of the loop with law school admissions if there's a shot of me being admitted to a T-6 school. I knew being Puerto Rican would help me somewhere in the T-20, but didn't realize it could be that much of a boost. A lot of my pessimism about applying to the elite comes from a complete lack of extracurricular involvement at Columbia UG. I was basically a ghost on campus. Worked to finance my education (I come from a fairly disadvantaged background) and studied my butt off to perform well academically. I always thought the URM candidates to the T-10 were among the brightest people of color in the entire country--superstars in and out of the classroom. Still not so sure I would stick out. I have a year of post-grad work experience in consulting, but not at a big 4 like McKinsey or BCG. I wasn't a leader on my UG campus, never coordinated a diversity or charity event. Still think that might hurt my chances... only really started doing community service after UG.


You have an amazing shot at the T6 because you are a URM. They really won't care that you never coordinated a diversity or charity even. Plenty of URMs get a URM boost without having a lick of anything talking about their race in their application other than their diversity statement. Check out the URMs on http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com to get an idea of how big a boost it is and have no doubt that it will apply to you (though it will probably be slightly less than the boost an AA gets, you should still use all URMs as a guide for what to expect).

All T10 students (not just the URMs) are the people with the highest GPAs and LSATs in the country. I don't think that makes them superstars or even bright at all (but maybe you do, the question is do you really think that a high college GPA or high LSAT is that impressive?). If you care about your future employment prospects, you really should strive for HYS (or a large scholarship to a lower school if you would prefer that). Look at law school from a utilitarian perspective.



Based on the link you showed me, it seems like URM candidates with acceptances at T-10 schools typically have much lower numbers than mine. That said, I am also concerned about money. I would love to go to a T-10 school, but if getting any money is out of the question it might be tough, my family requires a lot of financial assistance from me. If I'm being realistic with myself, re-taking the LSAT would likely mean going down (already took a Kaplan course). Would going to a T-6 at sticker really be worthwhile? Today, no matter what law school you attend, it seems like that big payday is not guaranteed.

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Law Sauce
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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:29 pm

nykid628 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
nykid628 wrote:OK, I'm really out of the loop with law school admissions if there's a shot of me being admitted to a T-6 school. I knew being Puerto Rican would help me somewhere in the T-20, but didn't realize it could be that much of a boost. A lot of my pessimism about applying to the elite comes from a complete lack of extracurricular involvement at Columbia UG. I was basically a ghost on campus. Worked to finance my education (I come from a fairly disadvantaged background) and studied my butt off to perform well academically. I always thought the URM candidates to the T-10 were among the brightest people of color in the entire country--superstars in and out of the classroom. Still not so sure I would stick out. I have a year of post-grad work experience in consulting, but not at a big 4 like McKinsey or BCG. I wasn't a leader on my UG campus, never coordinated a diversity or charity event. Still think that might hurt my chances... only really started doing community service after UG.


You have an amazing shot at the T6 because you are a URM. They really won't care that you never coordinated a diversity or charity even. Plenty of URMs get a URM boost without having a lick of anything talking about their race in their application other than their diversity statement. Check out the URMs on http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com to get an idea of how big a boost it is and have no doubt that it will apply to you (though it will probably be slightly less than the boost an AA gets, you should still use all URMs as a guide for what to expect).

All T10 students (not just the URMs) are the people with the highest GPAs and LSATs in the country. I don't think that makes them superstars or even bright at all (but maybe you do, the question is do you really think that a high college GPA or high LSAT is that impressive?). If you care about your future employment prospects, you really should strive for HYS (or a large scholarship to a lower school if you would prefer that). Look at law school from a utilitarian perspective.


Based on the link you showed me, it seems like URM candidates with acceptances at T-10 schools typically have much lower numbers than mine. That said, I am also concerned about money. I would love to go to a T-10 school, but if getting any money is out of the question it might be tough, my family requires a lot of financial assistance from me. If I'm being realistic with myself, re-taking the LSAT would likely mean going down (already took a Kaplan course). Would got to a T-6 at sticker really be worthwhile? Today, no matter what law school you attend, it seems like that big payday is not guaranteed.


See my post about scholarships. With URM you will see money dont worry.

But to answer your question: yes, t6 at sticker would be a better choice then say Cornell with 45k or something. T6 at sticker is something most applicants would dream of.

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:39 pm

Law Sauce wrote:
nykid628 wrote:Based on the link you showed me, it seems like URM candidates with acceptances at T-10 schools typically have much lower numbers than mine. That said, I am also concerned about money. I would love to go to a T-10 school, but if getting any money is out of the question it might be tough, my family requires a lot of financial assistance from me. If I'm being realistic with myself, re-taking the LSAT would likely mean going down (already took a Kaplan course). Would got to a T-6 at sticker really be worthwhile? Today, no matter what law school you attend, it seems like that big payday is not guaranteed.


See my post about scholarships. With URM you will see money dont worry.

But to answer your question: yes, t6 at sticker would be a better choice then say Cornell with 45k or something. T6 at sticker is something most applicants would dream of.


Not sure I agree with the bolded.

To answer the question, yeah you will probably get money. People here exaggerate the difference between CCN and the lower T14. There is nothing wrong with taking a heap of change from a lower T14 over sticker at CCN, heck it probably makes more sense. Apply to all the T14's so you can leverage scholarships and acceptances against each other.

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:06 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:
nykid628 wrote:Based on the link you showed me, it seems like URM candidates with acceptances at T-10 schools typically have much lower numbers than mine. That said, I am also concerned about money. I would love to go to a T-10 school, but if getting any money is out of the question it might be tough, my family requires a lot of financial assistance from me. If I'm being realistic with myself, re-taking the LSAT would likely mean going down (already took a Kaplan course). Would got to a T-6 at sticker really be worthwhile? Today, no matter what law school you attend, it seems like that big payday is not guaranteed.


See my post about scholarships. With URM you will see money dont worry.

But to answer your question: yes, t6 at sticker would be a better choice then say Cornell with 45k or something. T6 at sticker is something most applicants would dream of.


Not sure I agree with the bolded.

To answer the question, yeah you will probably get money. People here exaggerate the difference between CCN and the lower T14. There is nothing wrong with taking a heap of change from a lower T14 over sticker at CCN, heck it probably makes more sense. Apply to all the T14's so you can leverage scholarships and acceptances against each other.


People exaggerate the importance of 45k. Its not that much over the course of a legal career. Especially a career that "makes it" in Biglaw or the like. If one doesn't "make it," you are pretty stuck regardless of that 45k. Now this may make more of a difference if we are talking about 1/2 ride+ scholarships (like 90k+), which are rarer than people think unless you drop a few tiers in the rankings which is not usually worth it or you just get a great offer which is obviously best.

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:41 pm

Law Sauce wrote:People exaggerate the importance of 45k. Its not that much over the course of a legal career. Especially a career that "makes it" in Biglaw or the like. If one doesn't "make it," you are pretty stuck regardless of that 45k. Now this may make more of a difference if we are talking about 1/2 ride+ scholarships (like 90k+), which are rarer than people think unless you drop a few tiers in the rankings which is not usually worth it or you just get a great offer which is obviously best.


I'm in agreement. I think the difference between 180k debt and 225k debt (for example) is not that large. But I also think that people also blow up the difference between CCN and the lower T14 as well.

I'd also add that 1/2 ride+ scholarship are probably not going to be rare for 4.0/168/URM's.

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Re: 168 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--options

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:42 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:People exaggerate the importance of 45k. Its not that much over the course of a legal career. Especially a career that "makes it" in Biglaw or the like. If one doesn't "make it," you are pretty stuck regardless of that 45k. Now this may make more of a difference if we are talking about 1/2 ride+ scholarships (like 90k+), which are rarer than people think unless you drop a few tiers in the rankings which is not usually worth it or you just get a great offer which is obviously best.


I'm in agreement. I think the difference between 180k debt and 225k debt (for example) is not that large. But I also think that people also blow up the difference between CCN and the lower T14 as well.

I'd also add that 1/2 ride+ scholarship are probably not going to be rare for 4.0/168/URM's.


haha true, of course :P




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