LSDAS GPA = BS?

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dabbadon8
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby dabbadon8 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:25 am

Like everyone said. Try and do well on the LSAT. Hope is not lost. I have a 3.49 and will be going to umich w/54k. You can definitely take that gpa somewhere with a good lsat.

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girlonfire
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby girlonfire » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:27 am

Verisimi wrote:
beachbum wrote:Meh, I have a 3.49 and I turned out all right. Cowboy up for that LSAT and you'll be all right, too.

I also have a strong upward trend, and it seemed to get me over the hump at my top-choice school. You're probably gonna take a hit with scholarship prospects, but in terms of acceptances, all is certainly not lost.


Not to be a buzzkill, but I haven't seen any difference between my 'strong upward trend' double major gpa and the same in an easy major. Maybe it takes you over that hump, but it could just as easily be anything else.

in my case, it's URM and strong leadership softs.
I'd still argue that a strong upward trend and a 3.3, for example, looks better than a 3.3 and a mix of higher and lower grades throughout UG. It just seems to indicate a conscious effort being put forth-- like obvious concentration and commitment to your academics-- rather than being better in some subjects than others. Also, because course get more specific in your last 2 years, the course work is often more challenging... like English Comp 1 & 2 vs Early Shakespeare & Romantic & Victorian Lit (sorry, im an english major, but i'd imagine it's even worse for ppl with science majors)

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beachbum
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby beachbum » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:29 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
beachbum wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
beachbum wrote:Meh, I have a 3.49 and I turned out all right. Cowboy up for that LSAT and you'll be all right, too.

I also have a strong upward trend, and it seemed to get me over the hump at my top-choice school. You're probably gonna take a hit with scholarship prospects, but in terms of acceptances, all is certainly not lost.


"Strong upward trend" is a term that never fails to make me laugh on TLS lol


Why's that?


Its like opinions and assholes...


Fair enough, but consider this:

I had a 170/3.4, coming straight out of undergrad with fairly unremarkable softs. Person B had a 172/3.4, with significant WE and a patent-eligible major. We both applied to Duke ED at the same time. We both received responses at the same time. I was told that a decision could not be made on my app until they received my updated fall grades. Person B was waitlisted. After sending in my fall grades (4.0), I was accepted.

After including my fall grades, my cGPA was bumped to a 3.49. Relative to Duke's median (hell, even their 25%ile), a 3.40 and 3.49 are the same. Person B also had the more helpful LSAT and better softs. The upward trend was likely the only thing I had going in my favor relative to Person B, yet here I am.

I'm not saying it's the end-all-be-all, but it can certainly be helpful- particularly for borderline candidates.

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girlonfire
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby girlonfire » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:30 am

fwiw, im in the middle of my app cycle, and im pretty happy so far. I’m not seekin advice, im just itt throwing in my 2 cents-- a mixture of what i've learned this cycle, and what i've seen from others in similar boats.

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Zabini
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby Zabini » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:37 am

I'm somewhat annoyed by the LSDAS gpa only because I'm penalized by my school not granting A+ grades...the 3 or 4 classes where I've finished with a 98%+ could have really helped me out.

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coldshoulder
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby coldshoulder » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:59 am

Zabini wrote:I'm somewhat annoyed by the LSDAS gpa only because I'm penalized by my school not granting A+ grades...the 3 or 4 classes where I've finished with a 98%+ could have really helped me out.

Agreed. I don't understand why they don't take this into account, as a large number of schools don't use the A+ system.

saladfiend
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby saladfiend » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:13 am

No A+s at Harvard.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:19 am

A lot of schools don't use plus/minus at all. My university has no C-, no D+/D-, and the choice of whether to use plus/minus grading or not rests with the colleges and the departments but usually with the individual faculty member, many of whom don't list an A+ on their grading scale under any circumstances because it's calculated as a 4 anyway by the university. In the face of all these complications multiplied by the thousands of undergrad institutions, I like that LSAC keeps it as simple as it does rather than just capriciously throwing out grades because not everybody had access to them. What's next, count all plus/minus grades on a non plus/minus scale since some institutions don't let their students earn B+s, C+s, etc?

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YaSvoboden
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby YaSvoboden » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:32 am

coldshoulder wrote:My school (University of Utah) doesn't use A+'s, and I have a community college math grade of a D from my junior year in High School that is literally dropping my GPA an entire .1
I'm just finding it extremely unfair, and not actually indicative of my academic performance.


That sucks. I have a C in math from U of U from 2004 that is dropping me almost a solid .1. Do many schools give out A+?

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ThomasMN
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby ThomasMN » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:51 am

Not many schools have an A+ allowable on their transcripts, not to mention then have a professor actually give them out. Although, I wish my school had A+s as I have finished multiple courses at 100%, such is life.

I don't think people should really be knocking LSAC for "knocking" down their GPA, since in reality it was their work ethic that did it. It might have been in the distant past, such as a CC course during high school, but then all grades are in the past. People with consistent excellence are just going to be trusted more to succeed in law school than those that have been sketchy in the past. If you have to complain about a grade from CC, think about the people that blew off UG to some point or another and are applying to law school seven or eight years down the line. Its just part of the system. Quite a few people have zero sympathy for anyone that scores over a 160 on the LSAT. Personally, my opinion is that you should just rock it when you get to law school and even more so when you become an actual lawyer. At that point no one will care about that C or D anymore.

DreamShake
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby DreamShake » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:21 am

-Counting classes taken in HS is stupid/probably reduces the predictive value of the GPA.
-Counting A+'s is obviously an unfair policy--only some (and not that many) people have the opportunity. Hell, A+'s would've bumped me from a ~3.6 to ~4.0--I don't want to compete with somebody who gets that .4 bump just because his school actually gives A+'s.
-It should count only the last two years/last 60-80 hours of undergrad. Many Canadian schools do this, and many grad schools do something similar by only evaluating your major GPA. At the very least, LSAC should do studies to see whether this method has a higher predictive value than a GPA reflecting every college course. (Predictive value is the purported reason for collecting GPA information, right?? Not prestige whoring, oh no...)
-If it's going to count ALL the classes you take before your first degree, LSAC should let that shit swing both ways and count GPA points for classes that come after the first bachelor's.

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edgarfigaro
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby edgarfigaro » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:27 am

girlonfire wrote:I'd still argue that a strong upward trend and a 3.3, for example, looks better than a 3.3 and a mix of higher and lower grades throughout UG. It just seems to indicate a conscious effort being put forth-- like obvious concentration and commitment to your academics-- rather than being better in some subjects than others. Also, because course get more specific in your last 2 years, the course work is often more challenging... like English Comp 1 & 2 vs Early Shakespeare & Romantic & Victorian Lit (sorry, im an english major, but i'd imagine it's even worse for ppl with science majors)


Almost everyone has a strong upward trend because grading in the higher level courses is almost always uncurved AND most people major in an area that they have some affinity in. In my higher level polisci courses, if you turn in the work, there's literally no way to get lower than a B+ unless you publicly slept with the teacher's spouse. Contrast that with Intro to International Relations or Intro to American Gov't- both are curved to a B-/C+ due to class size. Same goes for almost every other intro course...they're curved, and they're popular, so you can get screwed royally your first year. Intro to Logic is notorious at my school for ruining prelaw GPAs.

Honestly, if you don't have an upward trend in your grades, that would almost be a negative flag. People are expected to do better as they progress through college.

Bumi
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby Bumi » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:53 am

DreamShake wrote:Hell, A+'s would've bumped me from a ~3.6 to ~4.0


I'm going to have to ask you to show your work on this one.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:19 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:LSAC has the difficult but necessary job of standardizing GPAs/transcripts in a way that makes sense, and I think the system they have is a good one.Someone who gets good grades all through college should have a better GPA than someone who did poorly; you can't only count the grades you like or else everyone would have a 4.0 and GPAs would be worthless as a measurement of undergrad performance.


I agree with this. It fucked me, but it doesn't mean its a poor system.


It is a poor system though when it rewards students based on the grading system of their institution. I know a great many people that have gone to different colleges, and I've yet to know a person who went to a school that awards A+'s. Why should my perfect A in tax accounting be any less valued than the same grade at a school that awards A+'s? Along with that, I know some of the schools attended by friends of mine don't use the +/- system, or, as it was with my college, the grading scale is so skewed it's ridiculous. For all my upper division courses, the grading scale was:

A = 100 - 95
A- = 94 - 93
B+ = 92 - 90
B = 89 - 86
B- = 85 - 84
C+ = 83 - 81
C = 80 - 77
C- = 75 - 76
D = 76 - 70
F = < 70

So, "standardizing" my GPA is not equitable in any way. There are too many problems with attempting to standardized GPA. The best solution is to use class rank and median GPA rather than the specific GPA itself. I went to two UG's, and according to my LSDAS report, the first school I went to had a mean GPA of a 3.41, the second was a 2.92.

dudders
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby dudders » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:25 am

fwiw, I went to school in the UC system, and my degree GPA and LSDAS GPA were identical.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:30 am

dudders wrote:fwiw, I went to school in the UC system, and my degree GPA and LSDAS GPA were identical.


Maybe the UC's are actually the puppet masters behind LSAC.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:46 am

DreamShake wrote:-Counting A+'s is obviously an unfair policy--only some (and not that many) people have the opportunity. Hell, A+'s would've bumped me from a ~3.6 to ~4.0--I don't want to compete with somebody who gets that .4 bump just because his school actually gives A+'s.

I'm guessing none of these hypothetical A+'s would have been in classes requiring math. Like, you know, addition.

amorfati
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby amorfati » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:44 am

DreamShake wrote:-Counting classes taken in HS is stupid/probably reduces the predictive value of the GPA.
-Counting A+'s is obviously an unfair policy--only some (and not that many) people have the opportunity. Hell, A+'s would've bumped me from a ~3.6 to ~4.0--I don't want to compete with somebody who gets that .4 bump just because his school actually gives A+'s.
-It should count only the last two years/last 60-80 hours of undergrad. Many Canadian schools do this, and many grad schools do something similar by only evaluating your major GPA. At the very least, LSAC should do studies to see whether this method has a higher predictive value than a GPA reflecting every college course. (Predictive value is the purported reason for collecting GPA information, right?? Not prestige whoring, oh no...)
-If it's going to count ALL the classes you take before your first degree, LSAC should let that shit swing both ways and count GPA points for classes that come after the first bachelor's.


Agreed, especially with this last point. If they want to account for a "strong upward trend," then I really wish my graduate coursework counted for something. Unfortunately, I've heard the reason they don't do this is because graduate-level grades are often even more variable and difficult to standardize. but still... it's just frustrating!

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Bildungsroman
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:48 am

amorfati wrote:Agreed, especially with this last point. If they want to account for a "strong upward trend," then I really wish my graduate coursework counted for something. Unfortunately, I've heard the reason they don't do this is because graduate-level grades are often even more variable and difficult to standardize. but still... it's just frustrating!


To be fair, graduate GPAs tend to be absurdly inflated. I'd bet most people wished their graduate coursework counted.

krad
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby krad » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:59 am

^ agreed.

My GPA was screwed by starting in the engineering tracks of chem, calc, and physics :roll: FWIW I think that my upward trend (straight A's after switching majors) has helped with scholly $.
Last edited by krad on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:00 pm

I don't have any argument against CC classes in HS counting. You earned those grades; own them. If you were too dumb at 15/16/17 years old to realize that college credits might actually count for something later on, you deserve your bad LSDAS.

But the A+ thing bothers me. It's not like I was rightly punished for screwing around in UG because I didn't know that extra '+' would give me a boost for law school. The '+' wasn't available to me at all because my UG doesn't use it, and I was punished anyway. I wouldn't have gotten many (not a lot of 98%s get thrown around in engineering classes), but some of my writing/humanities requirements were stupidly easy.

Overall, my CC classes raised my LSDAS GPA .03. Nothing to write home about, and I wish I could've had some A+ grades in there, but at least it showed that I was consistent my whole UG career and took my education reasonably seriously.

DreamShake
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby DreamShake » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:38 pm

Bumi wrote:
DreamShake wrote:Hell, A+'s would've bumped me from a ~3.6 to ~4.0

I'm going to have to ask you to show your work on this one.


Yeah...this is what happens when I post at 3AM. I counted an A+ as adding another GPA point (B=3 A=4 A+=5) instead of .33. Embarrassing :oops:. It would've moved from ~3.6 to ~3.75 (between 66-72 credit hours where I was top of the class/100% grade).

rinkrat19 wrote:I don't have any argument against CC classes in HS counting. You earned those grades; own them. If you were too dumb at 15/16/17 years old to realize that college credits might actually count for something later on, you deserve your bad LSDAS.

Um...in most cases I doubt that it's "dumb" so much as it's "ignorant." And with good reason. Not many people know that they're headed to grad school while they're still in high school and that those grades will matter long-term; many people take CC classes in HS simply to expedite attaining a bachelor's. It's also problematic that the demographic you're speaking of is trying to gain admission to UG institutions...which actually care about the difficulty of your courses as much as your grades in them. Do you really expect a 16 year-old to recognize "Oh, law school--not grad schools, just law schools--don't care about difficulty; they just care about my GPA"? Not everybody has the luxury of planning life out and accounting for contingencies eight to ten years down the road.

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rinkrat19
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:12 pm

DreamShake wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:I don't have any argument against CC classes in HS counting. You earned those grades; own them. If you were too dumb at 15/16/17 years old to realize that college credits might actually count for something later on, you deserve your bad LSDAS.

Um...in most cases I doubt that it's "dumb" so much as it's "ignorant." And with good reason. Not many people know that they're headed to grad school while they're still in high school and that those grades will matter long-term; many people take CC classes in HS simply to expedite attaining a bachelor's. It's also problematic that the demographic you're speaking of is trying to gain admission to UG institutions...which actually care about the difficulty of your courses as much as your grades in them. Do you really expect a 16 year-old to recognize "Oh, law school--not grad schools, just law schools--don't care about difficulty; they just care about my GPA"? Not everybody has the luxury of planning life out and accounting for contingencies eight to ten years down the road.

So you think a high schooler taking CC classes is thinking "they won't care if I get a D in this class by not trying, just the fact that it's a hard class will set me up for lifelong success!"?

Maybe I was a freak but I was fairly sure that all grades mattered, even at the tender age of 16. And I had no thoughts of attending law school or grad school of any kind yet. I didn't assume that half-assing it through UG with straight Cs would get me a great job (my last name isn't Bush). I figured that since your GPA goes on your resume, it probably kinda matters, and I should do my best to not screw it up.

If I'd had any thoughts of law school at the time and if I'd known that GPA>everything except the LSAT, I certainly wouldn't have majored in engineering. I lost more GPA via hard math and science classes than most people lose via the LSDAS calculation. But you don't hear me bitching about the fact that GPA is so important to law schools or that you don't get enough boost for a hard major. No one forced me to major in it.

Don't take a class you're not prepared to try in. And if you don't try, well, it was your choice and now you get to live with the consequences.

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coldshoulder
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby coldshoulder » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:43 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
DreamShake wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:I don't have any argument against CC classes in HS counting. You earned those grades; own them. If you were too dumb at 15/16/17 years old to realize that college credits might actually count for something later on, you deserve your bad LSDAS.

Um...in most cases I doubt that it's "dumb" so much as it's "ignorant." And with good reason. Not many people know that they're headed to grad school while they're still in high school and that those grades will matter long-term; many people take CC classes in HS simply to expedite attaining a bachelor's. It's also problematic that the demographic you're speaking of is trying to gain admission to UG institutions...which actually care about the difficulty of your courses as much as your grades in them. Do you really expect a 16 year-old to recognize "Oh, law school--not grad schools, just law schools--don't care about difficulty; they just care about my GPA"? Not everybody has the luxury of planning life out and accounting for contingencies eight to ten years down the road.

So you think a high schooler taking CC classes is thinking "they won't care if I get a D in this class by not trying, just the fact that it's a hard class will set me up for lifelong success!"?

Maybe I was a freak but I was fairly sure that all grades mattered, even at the tender age of 16. And I had no thoughts of attending law school or grad school of any kind yet. I didn't assume that half-assing it through UG with straight Cs would get me a great job (my last name isn't Bush). I figured that since your GPA goes on your resume, it probably kinda matters, and I should do my best to not screw it up.

If I'd had any thoughts of law school at the time and if I'd known that GPA>everything except the LSAT, I certainly wouldn't have majored in engineering. I lost more GPA via hard math and science classes than most people lose via the LSDAS calculation. But you don't hear me bitching about the fact that GPA is so important to law schools or that you don't get enough boost for a hard major. No one forced me to major in it.

Don't take a class you're not prepared to try in. And if you don't try, well, it was your choice and now you get to live with the consequences.


What sucked is that both my HS and my UG assured me that my 'transfer GPA' from CC classes would not be counted towards my GPA. Even my pre-law counselor thought that re-doing the classes in UG would replace the grade for LSDAS. If they count concurrent enrollment classes why don't they count AP credits? My AP classes were vastly more challenging and educational than CC, yet my six scores of 5 don't count for shit.
It's a complex system that undoubtedly helps some more than others.

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acadec
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Re: LSDAS GPA = BS?

Postby acadec » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:50 pm

99% sure I know the OP in real life. Whaddup dude. I have the same problem, with my LSDAS GPA dropping .1 from my UG, probably because of the same class.




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