PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

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Veyron
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:30 am

0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:I don't understand what this is saying. Can you explain it another way?


There's like an 80% chance you won't be able to pay your loans after graduation.


I actually don't have any loans and I graduated several years ago. I can't even tell if this reply is being sarcastic or not.
Sorry, I don't understand the statistical discussions, but I want to. I have several friends and relatives interested in applying to law schools and in the current law market and they are asking me for help. I will not be in a position to offer them jobs when they graduate. I don't think they should take on major debt to go to law school and I am trying to back up that position. I am conservative so major to me is anything more than $50,000.

So can you try explaining it again?


No sarcasm.

For those with 6 figures of debt, it's unlikely that debt will be serviceable with a salary between 40 and 60K (it would give pauper a new meaning). There's a better chance that one could do that making, say, 80K, but those jobs are few. The next viable option is biglaw. The chances of obtaining a biglaw job vary widely depending on where one attends, but outside of T6 or so, your chances are no better than 1 in 3.


STOP MESSING WITH FORCES YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND 0L

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TatteredDignity
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:30 am

Veyron wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
Veyron wrote:
NOT in them.

This consideration is almost categorically overlooked when weighing LS options. Also, these jobs--to the extent to which they go to first years at all (which is admittedly not the standard midlaw hiring model)--DO tend to go to those who fall just shy of Biglaw. Most (yes, most: over 50%) ppl who miss Biglaw at the T13s go into the middle range, as do most T25ish kids.

I have a .pdf document (which I will post if TLS lets me) accounting for every member of the NDLS c/o 2009--firm and city. MOST of them are midlaw gigs; the 2nd largest number is Biglaw; the 3rd is gov't work.

I think much of TLS does not stop to think about how these graphs work. There is a spike at $160K b/c of market matching by firms; the "spikes" are not as significant as the overall integration of the various salary ranges. There is enough integrated "area" in the middle range to form several similarly-sized spikes... but that doesn't happen, since there isn't the widespread salary matching in that sector.


Ok, I'll bite, how does one land a "midlaw" gig?


Easy. Network, hustle, use all of your resources, keep a positive attitude, find a firm that realizes your personality is a good fit for them, and hope it's the one out of every 3 years they decide to hire for an entry-level position.


Right but is it thru SA programs? I've seen a lot of firms that seem like "midlaw" but have SA programs. However, I hear the offer rates suck.

Edit: Wait, you a 0L, WTF are you doing giving advice? STFU


I'm not even allowed to give facetious advice? :wink:

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Veyron
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:31 am

[/quote]

Ok, I'll bite, how does one land a "midlaw" gig?[/quote]

Easy. Network, hustle, use all of your resources, keep a positive attitude, find a firm that realizes your personality is a good fit for them, and hope it's the one out of every 3 years they decide to hire for an entry-level position.[/quote]

Right but is it thru SA programs? I've seen a lot of firms that seem like "midlaw" but have SA programs. However, I hear the offer rates suck.

Edit: Wait, you a 0L, WTF are you doing giving advice? STFU[/quote]

I'm not even allowed to give facetious advice? :wink:[/quote]

0Ls should be seen, not heard.

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fatduck
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby fatduck » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:33 am

don't make me open up mspaint

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TatteredDignity
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:34 am

Veyron wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:
No sarcasm.

For those with 6 figures of debt, it's unlikely that debt will be serviceable with a salary between 40 and 60K (it would give pauper a new meaning). There's a better chance that one could do that making, say, 80K, but those jobs are few. The next viable option is biglaw. The chances of obtaining a biglaw job vary widely depending on where one attends, but outside of T6 or so, your chances are no better than 1 in 3.


STOP MESSING WITH FORCES YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND 0L


So, we'd like 0Ls to be better educated about what they're getting into, but that's an unreasonable goal, because they could never have even a basic understanding of the employment outlook. :roll:

Veyron wrote:0Ls should be seen, not heard.


That might not be the most sensible mantra for an internet forum.

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JazzOne
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby JazzOne » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:11 am

I'm all for bashing douchey 0Ls, but this one actually seems to know what he's talking about.

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niederbomb
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby niederbomb » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:44 am

flcath wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:~45 36% of the people on that graph make 60K and lower. And that is 36%of reported salary, which only includes the employed.
Not that it totally brightens the picture. The graph does include those employed outside of law, which means that only the truly unemployed (extremely rare at 9 months, usually like 1% if I recall) are omitted.

Desert Fox wrote:The survey only covers about half of all grads.

NALP indicates that it makes very little difference for those in the middle. The aforesaid "business" (table-waiting) category are harder to find for survey, while those in large firms are extraordinarily easy to find. NALP doesn't just correct for that after the fact; they tailor their survey techniques accordingly.

kapital98 wrote:*edit* Take the data and make wage ranges (ex: $60,000-$90,000) to illustrate your point in a bar graph...
I'm probably not gonna do that, but yes, it would illustrate the point quite nicely.


More than 36% of law schools are 3rd and 4th tier. This makes me a feel a lot better about going anywhere in the T14.

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niederbomb
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby niederbomb » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:52 am

0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:I don't understand what this is saying. Can you explain it another way?


There's like an 80% chance you won't be able to pay your loans after graduation.


I actually don't have any loans and I graduated several years ago. I can't even tell if this reply is being sarcastic or not.
Sorry, I don't understand the statistical discussions, but I want to. I have several friends and relatives interested in applying to law schools and in the current law market and they are asking me for help. I will not be in a position to offer them jobs when they graduate. I don't think they should take on major debt to go to law school and I am trying to back up that position. I am conservative so major to me is anything more than $50,000.

So can you try explaining it again?


No sarcasm.

For those with 6 figures of debt, it's unlikely that debt will be serviceable with a salary between 40 and 60K (it would give pauper a new meaning). There's a better chance that one could do that making, say, 80K, but those jobs are few. The next viable option is biglaw. The chances of obtaining a biglaw job vary widely depending on where one attends, but outside of T6 or so, your chances are no better than 1 in 3.


What are the monthly payments for, say, $150,000 in debt? A $50,000 per year salary is barely taxable, especially with tons of debt. If you continue to live like a student, and take public transportation, you could potentially contribute $30,000+ per year and have that debt down to a manageable level in 4 years or so. Besides, a really highly ranked school in is more likely to provide a network that can get you other business options outside of law, like consulting, so you're by no means stuck at $50,000. The economy won't stay terrible forever.

If you want to live risk free, then move to a farm in the backwoods where you can produce most of your own food.

I originally thought about calling bullshit when it seemed like TLS pretended that Midlaw doesn't exist. I know tons of lawyers who work in it. These numbers help put everything back in perspective. There are plenty of options in-between $160,000 and a public-defender's salary.

Keep this in perspective: The estimated COL for every law school, even if it's in downtown NYC, is under $20,000 per year. Who says you suddenly need a lot more than that when you graduate? Basically, anything over $20,000 is for paying down debt. Ideally, you'd be contributing more than $100,000 each year. Then your debt would completely disappear within 3 years. But less is certainly doable.

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androstan
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby androstan » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:38 am

niederbomb wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
There's like an 80% chance you won't be able to pay your loans after graduation.


I actually don't have any loans and I graduated several years ago. I can't even tell if this reply is being sarcastic or not.
Sorry, I don't understand the statistical discussions, but I want to. I have several friends and relatives interested in applying to law schools and in the current law market and they are asking me for help. I will not be in a position to offer them jobs when they graduate. I don't think they should take on major debt to go to law school and I am trying to back up that position. I am conservative so major to me is anything more than $50,000.

So can you try explaining it again?


No sarcasm.

For those with 6 figures of debt, it's unlikely that debt will be serviceable with a salary between 40 and 60K (it would give pauper a new meaning). There's a better chance that one could do that making, say, 80K, but those jobs are few. The next viable option is biglaw. The chances of obtaining a biglaw job vary widely depending on where one attends, but outside of T6 or so, your chances are no better than 1 in 3.


Keep this in perspective: The estimated COL for every law school, even if it's in downtown NYC, is under $20,000 per year. Who says you suddenly need a lot more than that when you graduate? Basically, anything over $20,000 is for paying down debt. Ideally, you'd be contributing more than $100,000 each year. Then your debt would completely disappear within 3 years. But less is certainly doable.


This isn't a huge deal to refute your point, but for accuracy's sake, those COL estimates are almost always 9 month COLs. Multiply by 1.33 to get the yearly COL. So, in the $27000 range.

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androstan
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby androstan » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:44 am

Nevermind.

flcath
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby flcath » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:54 pm

0LNewbie wrote:
rose711 wrote:I don't understand what this is saying. Can you explain it another way?


There's like an 80% chance you won't be able to pay your loans after graduation.
There is a 0% chance of you not paying your loans under IBR.


applepiecrust wrote:
flcath wrote:NOT in them.

This consideration is almost categorically overlooked when weighing LS options. Also, these jobs--to the extent to which they go to first years at all (which is admittedly not the standard midlaw hiring model)--DO tend to go to those who fall just shy of Biglaw. Most (yes, most: over 50%) ppl who miss Biglaw at the T13s go into the middle range, as do most T25ish kids.

I have a .pdf document (which I will post if TLS lets me) accounting for every member of the NDLS c/o 2009--firm and city. MOST of them are midlaw gigs; the 2nd largest number is Biglaw; the 3rd is gov't work.

I think much of TLS does not stop to think about how these graphs work. There is a spike at $160K b/c of market matching by firms; the "spikes" are not as significant as the overall integration of the various salary ranges. There is enough integrated "area" in the middle range to form several similarly-sized spikes... but that doesn't happen, since there isn't the widespread salary matching in that sector.


What's with the blatant anti-Georgetown trolling all around?

I'm not sure what you're talking about?

Edit: oh you bolded T13. I have nothing wrong w/ GULC; it is a very good school.

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Veyron
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:07 pm

[/quote]I actually don't have any loans and I graduated several years ago. I can't even tell if this reply is being sarcastic or not.
Sorry, I don't understand the statistical discussions, but I want to. I have several friends and relatives interested in applying to law schools and in the current law market and they are asking me for help. I will not be in a position to offer them jobs when they graduate. I don't think they should take on major debt to go to law school and I am trying to back up that position. I am conservative so major to me is anything more than $50,000.

So can you try explaining it again?[/quote]

No sarcasm.

For those with 6 figures of debt, it's unlikely that debt will be serviceable with a salary between 40 and 60K (it would give pauper a new meaning). There's a better chance that one could do that making, say, 80K, but those jobs are few. The next viable option is biglaw. The chances of obtaining a biglaw job vary widely depending on where one attends, but outside of T6 or so, your chances are no better than 1 in 3.[/quote]

What are the monthly payments for, say, $150,000 in debt? A $50,000 per year salary is barely taxable, especially with tons of debt. If you continue to live like a student, and take public transportation, you could potentially contribute $30,000+ per year and have that debt down to a manageable level in 4 years or so. Besides, a really highly ranked school in is more likely to provide a network that can get you other business options outside of law, like consulting, so you're by no means stuck at $50,000. The economy won't stay terrible forever.

If you want to live risk free, then move to a farm in the backwoods where you can produce most of your own food.

I originally thought about calling bullshit when it seemed like TLS pretended that Midlaw doesn't exist. I know tons of lawyers who work in it. These numbers help put everything back in perspective. There are plenty of options in-between $160,000 and a public-defender's salary.

Keep this in perspective: The estimated COL for every law school, even if it's in downtown NYC, is under $20,000 per year. Who says you suddenly need a lot more than that when you graduate? Basically, anything over $20,000 is for paying down debt. Ideally, you'd be contributing more than $100,000 each year. Then your debt would completely disappear within 3 years. But less is certainly doable.[/quote]

Student loan debt is not tax deductible dude unless you make very little $ in which case 2.5k only is deductible. Research before you post, neh?

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androstan
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby androstan » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:59 pm

I've been saying, for a while, that there is more midlaw out there than the rhetoric on TLS would indicate.

In one of my first few posts on TLS I integrated the NALP curve to show that there were a substantial fraction of "intermediate" salaries.

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bk1
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:02 pm

androstan wrote:I've been saying, for a while, that there is more midlaw out there than the rhetoric on TLS would indicate.

In one of my first few posts on TLS I integrated the NALP curve to show that there were a substantial fraction of "intermediate" salaries.


To which I responded that I would bet that these intermediate salaries consist of regional biglaw in secondary/tertiary/etc markets and thus make midlaw in large markets not as big as the graph might indicate.

flcath
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby flcath » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:52 pm

bk1 wrote:
androstan wrote:I've been saying, for a while, that there is more midlaw out there than the rhetoric on TLS would indicate.

In one of my first few posts on TLS I integrated the NALP curve to show that there were a substantial fraction of "intermediate" salaries.


To which I responded that I would bet that these intermediate salaries consist of regional biglaw in secondary/tertiary/etc markets and thus make midlaw in large markets not as big as the graph might indicate.

For the purposes of this thread, this is meaningless. It just means that instead of 25% of first years getting "Biglaw," about 32% of them get "Biglaw." It's a trivial distinction. You point out that because it's "Biglaw" it's tougher to get, but what's relevant is that the graph shows us the percentage of grads who are getting it.

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JazzOne
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Re: PSA: Roughly 60% of 1st yrs will land b/t the salary "modes"

Postby JazzOne » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:56 pm

Why is everyone debating about midlaw? It's all about biggerlaw.




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