Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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javancho
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Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:50 pm

To all those that got accepted into Villanova Law, you should know that the school admitted reporting inaccurate information to the ABA:

--LinkRemoved--

dissonance1848
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby dissonance1848 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:01 pm

Law schools reporting inaccurate data? NO WAY! I thought my TTTTT's report that the median private sector salary for the class of 2011 of $123000 was for real since, you know, only 7% of the students reported.

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:28 pm

This news might hit the reputation of Villanova and is relevant to people considering attending. It seems that the fudged data involves LSAT and GPA scores.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _law_dean/
Last edited by javancho on Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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gothamm
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby gothamm » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:52 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:Law schools reporting inaccurate data? NO WAY! I thought my TTTTT's report that the median private sector salary for the class of 2011 of $123000 was for real since, you know, only 7% of the students reported.


So you are saying that I wont be making making $120,000 out of a tier 4 school? I mean thats just the median. I thought I would be making more than the median, because I am a hard worker.

rose711
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby rose711 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:05 am

I know people may not be shocked by this, but I am. I thought that the misleading numbers were all related to employment. It never occurred to me that schools would be so dishonest that they would lie about data that is so easy to double check. It is pretty sickening actually.

Miracle
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Miracle » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:08 am

The article doesn't address specifics.

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:24 am

Miracle wrote:The article doesn't address specifics.


No, but the ABA journal article states that:

Although the letter doesn't specify what admissions data, exactly, was fudged, a university spokesman tells the ABA Journal that "at this point it appears that it is limited to LSAT and GPA scores."

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _law_dean/

slacker
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby slacker » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:16 am

This is why it's funny when adcomms say that they don't care about the rankings.

HopefulFish
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HopefulFish » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:33 am

It's so disheartening to see these tragic realities of the law school game. I sincerely despise USNWR and everyone who participates in it.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:42 am

I'm sorry...aside from the general principle of the thing, why does this matter? In no way does fudging LSAT and GPA medians disadvantage students. What matters is student outcomes as determined by post-graduate employment - and we all know how disingenuous schools are about that. It's disturbing to contrast the opprobrium this incident is receiving with the fatalistic attitude towards employment transparency.

rose711
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby rose711 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:52 am

I am even more concerned about the false employment data - but that wasn't what this article was about. What bothers me is that this data is easy to collect, quick to audit and easy to get caught cheating. The data from graduates about employment is more difficult to verify. I just think that if schools are lying about this then pretty much everything they report should be considered bogus. It matters because it further undermines credibility.

And I do think that students look at LSAT scores and GPA to decide where to apply- where they think they might get in- and also to decide where to accept - if they feel they might do better (or worse) at a certain school depending on where their scores fit into the reported medians.
Last edited by rose711 on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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luckyme
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby luckyme » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:53 am

soullesswonder wrote:I'm sorry...aside from the general principle of the thing, why does this matter? In no way does fudging LSAT and GPA medians disadvantage students. What matters is student outcomes as determined by post-graduate employment - and we all know how disingenuous schools are about that. It's disturbing to contrast the opprobrium this incident is receiving with the fatalistic attitude towards employment transparency.


it's easier in some ways to assess/criticize the wrongdoings of one school than of an entire industry

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soullesswonder
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:59 am

luckyme wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:I'm sorry...aside from the general principle of the thing, why does this matter? In no way does fudging LSAT and GPA medians disadvantage students. What matters is student outcomes as determined by post-graduate employment - and we all know how disingenuous schools are about that. It's disturbing to contrast the opprobrium this incident is receiving with the fatalistic attitude towards employment transparency.


it's easier in some ways to assess/criticize the wrongdoings of one school than of an entire industry


I completely agree, which is why I'm concerned. Can't you just see the ABA rolling out a "Mission Accomplished" banner and pretending like the rot begins and ends with Villanova?

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Stonewall
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Stonewall » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:06 am

Say it ain't so! *does home alone face slap*

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ntugwater
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby ntugwater » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:07 am

javancho wrote:This news might hit the reputation of Villanova and is relevant to people considering attending. It seems that the fudged data involves LSAT and GPA scores.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _law_dean/

nah it wont b/c no one really cares that much

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:47 pm

ntugwater wrote:
javancho wrote:This news might hit the reputation of Villanova and is relevant to people considering attending. It seems that the fudged data involves LSAT and GPA scores.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _law_dean/

nah it wont b/c no one really cares that much


Your are probably right, and that is very sad. We all know schools "massage" employment data, but now one of them gets caught fabricating LSAT and GPA data, and lots of people will think it's not a big deal.

Well, I think it is a huge deal. We will give these law schools a huge chunk of money and time. I think the minimum we can expect in return from them is honesty.

When we have to pass the bar, we will go through the C&F examination, and we need to disclose everything, or so we are told. If we forget about even a silly parking ticket, it's a big deal. But when it comes to schools being dishonest, the attitude is: "no, that's OK, it's not a big deal."

The law is about honesty and truthfulness, and the fact that many future lawyers have become so complacent about law school data misrepresentation is very disturbing to me.

I also wish that schools would undergo some sort of C&F examination to get accredited and re-accredited.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:37 pm

The timing here is interesting, we're up for reaccrediation this year and the ABA reps are doing their campus evaluations this semester.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:06 pm

Villanova's overrated, anyway. If you want to work in Philly, can't get into Penn, and have no ties to the region, pick the cheaper option between Temple and Rutgers-Camden.

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sanjola
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby sanjola » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:12 pm

rose711 wrote:I am even more concerned about the false employment data - but that wasn't what this article was about. What bothers me is that this data is easy to collect, quick to audit and easy to get caught cheating. The data from graduates about employment is more difficult to verify. I just think that if schools are lying about this then pretty much everything they report should be considered bogus. It matters because it further undermines credibility.

And I do think that students look at LSAT scores and GPA to decide where to apply- where they think they might get in- and also to decide where to accept - if they feel they might do better (or worse) at a certain school depending on where their scores fit into the reported medians.


According to the article, it went unnoticed for several years, so it's not that easy to pinpoint false reports. I don't think it's a big deal, unless you are an uniformed applicant who relies on school reporting. I just think it's funny how law schools never admit to their dependency on the rankings, yet they scandals like this prove it.

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:45 pm

sanjola wrote:
rose711 wrote:I am even more concerned about the false employment data - but that wasn't what this article was about. What bothers me is that this data is easy to collect, quick to audit and easy to get caught cheating. The data from graduates about employment is more difficult to verify. I just think that if schools are lying about this then pretty much everything they report should be considered bogus. It matters because it further undermines credibility.

And I do think that students look at LSAT scores and GPA to decide where to apply- where they think they might get in- and also to decide where to accept - if they feel they might do better (or worse) at a certain school depending on where their scores fit into the reported medians.


According to the article, it went unnoticed for several years, so it's not that easy to pinpoint false reports. I don't think it's a big deal, unless you are an uniformed applicant who relies on school reporting. I just think it's funny how law schools never admit to their dependency on the rankings, yet they scandals like this prove it.


Really? I am one of those "uniformed applicant who relies on school reporting" when it comes to LSAT and GPA. USNWR and the ABA also rely on the data provided by the schools. Please enlighten me about the other resources you imply I can use to find LSAT and GPA data.

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sanjola
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby sanjola » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:52 pm

javancho wrote:
sanjola wrote:
rose711 wrote:I am even more concerned about the false employment data - but that wasn't what this article was about. What bothers me is that this data is easy to collect, quick to audit and easy to get caught cheating. The data from graduates about employment is more difficult to verify. I just think that if schools are lying about this then pretty much everything they report should be considered bogus. It matters because it further undermines credibility.

And I do think that students look at LSAT scores and GPA to decide where to apply- where they think they might get in- and also to decide where to accept - if they feel they might do better (or worse) at a certain school depending on where their scores fit into the reported medians.


According to the article, it went unnoticed for several years, so it's not that easy to pinpoint false reports. I don't think it's a big deal, unless you are an uniformed applicant who relies on school reporting. I just think it's funny how law schools never admit to their dependency on the rankings, yet they scandals like this prove it.


Really? I am one of those "uniformed applicant who relies on school reporting" when it comes to LSAT and GPA. USNWR and the ABA also rely on the data provided by the schools. Please enlighten me about the other resources you imply I can use to find LSAT and GPA data.


If you aren't going to apply because their reported numbers are too high, oh well. If you REALLY want to go to Vanderbilt and are disparaged by their reported stats, then you would apply anyway and call it a reach. I don't know the level of inflated numbers, but it was probably a point or two above the actual numbers.

I think the misleading employment statistics are worse.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:53 pm

It's always nice to see dishonest people slammed, but I hope this doesn't negatively affect the current students as well.

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:03 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:It's always nice to see dishonest people slammed, but I hope this doesn't negatively affect the current students as well.


Of course it's going to impact the school reputation and the current students. And that's why I think this is a a big deal. If Villanova fudged data, and got away with it for years, how do I know that the school which I'll be attending in a few months, and paying lots of money to attend, is not going to have a similar issue/scandal?

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:20 pm

Our old Dean used to bang hookers, it can't come as that big of a surprise that there was other scandalous shit going too.

Miracle
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Miracle » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:25 pm

javancho wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:It's always nice to see dishonest people slammed, but I hope this doesn't negatively affect the current students as well.


Of course it's going to impact the school reputation and the current students. And that's why I think this is a a big deal. If Villanova fudged data, and got away with it for years, how do I know that the school which I'll be attending in a few months, and paying lots of money to attend, is not going to have a similar issue/scandal?


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