T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

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dcpolitico
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T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby dcpolitico » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:20 am

Using most recent data from the LSAC Official Guide

  1. Yale 58
  2. Stanford University 60
  3. Northwestern University 65
  4. Duke University 68
  5. University of Virginia 72
  6. Harvard University 80
  7. University of Pennsylvania 85
  8. New York University 89
  9. University of California, Berkeley 90
  10. University of Michigan 91
  11. University of Chicago 93
  12. Columbia University 95
  13. Cornell University 99
  14. Georgetown University 117

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Ragged
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby Ragged » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:49 am

What are the pros/cons of section size?

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dcpolitico
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby dcpolitico » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 am

Ragged wrote:What are the pros/cons of section size?


The pros/cons for section size are essentially the same as the pros/cons for class size. I think section size is a more meaningful metric and more indicative of your 1L experience because each section stays together for all of its course work.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby Knock » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:17 am

dcpolitico wrote:
Ragged wrote:What are the pros/cons of section size?


The pros/cons for section size are essentially the same as the pros/cons for class size. I think section size is a more meaningful metric and more indicative of your 1L experience because each section stays together for all of its course work.


Well, class size also indicates how many students a firm is trying to place into jobs. Obviously it's harder to place 450+ Georgetown grads into jobs than a similarly ranked school with a smaller class size, etc.

So it's hard to say that section size is more meangingful. They're different and both should be considered.

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dcpolitico
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby dcpolitico » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:25 am

When I think pros/cons for small class size, I think more intimate experience with professors and classmates. But section size is what matters.
Last edited by dcpolitico on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby 09042014 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:26 am

My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:30 am

Knock wrote:Well, class size also indicates how many students a firm is trying to place into jobs. Obviously it's harder to place 450+ Georgetown grads into jobs than a similarly ranked school with a smaller class size, etc.

So it's hard to say that section size is more meangingful. They're different and both should be considered.


People play this up a bit too much on here. The reputation of the school serves a serious counterweight to this problem. Harvard places just as well as Stanford even with it's massive class size. Harvard is Harvard so it doesn't particularly matter. Michigan has a bigger class size than Vanderbilt yet it still measurably outperforms Vandy---- class size isn't the be all end all for placement power.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tanicius
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby Tanicius » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:33 am

Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.



That is not a downside comparatively speaking.

naruhodo
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby naruhodo » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:35 pm

Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

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IAFG
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:43 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Knock wrote:Well, class size also indicates how many students a firm is trying to place into jobs. Obviously it's harder to place 450+ Georgetown grads into jobs than a similarly ranked school with a smaller class size, etc.

So it's hard to say that section size is more meangingful. They're different and both should be considered.


People play this up a bit too much on here. The reputation of the school serves a serious counterweight to this problem. Harvard places just as well as Stanford even with it's massive class size. Harvard is Harvard so it doesn't particularly matter. Michigan has a bigger class size than Vanderbilt yet it still measurably outperforms Vandy---- class size isn't the be all end all for placement power.

Based on the placement data the HLSers leaked, it appears they placed around how CLS/NYU placed. Then again I don't know how SLS has weathered the storm since CA has been so ugly.

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clintonius
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby clintonius » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:46 pm

naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

1. What definition?

2. This sounds like the smaller groups that every school has for LRW classes, which are not the same thing as a section.

FWIW, NYU's sections were about 95 people this year.

swimbrad
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby swimbrad » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:47 pm

naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

Chicago has 33, following this metric

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IAFG
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

All the NU sections were smaller than 165. I wonder if that was attrition or shrinking the class size or about getting our medians up or ...?

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irie
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby irie » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:06 pm

swimbrad wrote:
naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

Chicago has 33, following this metric


yeah, ditto with Columbia, our legal writing class was 11 people and one of the other classes was ~30 people. then we had 2 large classes of 90-100.

Honestly, the "more intimate experience" with professors is overhyped, most professors sit around in office hours facing an empty office half the time, and usually stick around after class to speak one on one. these are all great institutions with dedicated professors, if a student really needed some facetime the difference in their section size doesn't matter much. as for making friends with your section, most of the people i hang out with outside class are not from my section but from various extracurriculars

09042014
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby 09042014 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:47 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

All the NU sections were smaller than 165. I wonder if that was attrition or shrinking the class size or about getting our medians up or ...?


My torts class has 61, my civ pro 62, and property 63. I dunno where the extra people come from.

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RVP11
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby RVP11 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:14 pm

dcpolitico wrote:Using most recent data from the LSAC Official Guide

  1. Yale 58
  2. Stanford University 60
  3. Northwestern University 65
  4. Duke University 68
  5. University of Virginia 72
  6. Harvard University 80
  7. University of Pennsylvania 85
  8. New York University 89
  9. University of California, Berkeley 90
  10. University of Michigan 91
  11. University of Chicago 93
  12. Columbia University 95
  13. Cornell University 99
  14. Georgetown University 117


1L sections at UVA have ~30. What you're listing are the average numbers of people in each 1L class (like Torts, CivPro, Contracts, etc.).

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Holly Golightly
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby Holly Golightly » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

All the NU sections were smaller than 165. I wonder if that was attrition or shrinking the class size or about getting our medians up or ...?


My torts class has 61, my civ pro 62, and property 63. I dunno where the extra people come from.

We had some 2-year foreign JDs and a 2L in a couple of my classes.

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clintonius
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby clintonius » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:41 pm

RVP11 wrote:
dcpolitico wrote:Using most recent data from the LSAC Official Guide

  1. Yale 58
  2. Stanford University 60
  3. Northwestern University 65
  4. Duke University 68
  5. University of Virginia 72
  6. Harvard University 80
  7. University of Pennsylvania 85
  8. New York University 89
  9. University of California, Berkeley 90
  10. University of Michigan 91
  11. University of Chicago 93
  12. Columbia University 95
  13. Cornell University 99
  14. Georgetown University 117


1L sections at UVA have ~30. What you're listing are the average numbers of people in each 1L class (like Torts, CivPro, Contracts, etc.).

Some schools call those "sections." At least NYU does. The smaller classes are our "lawyering" (LRW) groups.

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doyleoil
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby doyleoil » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:45 pm

what the HELL is this nonsense?

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quakeroats
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby quakeroats » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:45 pm

Duke has 6 sections of approximately 40 this year.

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danidancer
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby danidancer » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:57 pm

Cornell sections are apx. 30 people, so a third of what you have here. This semester I had two classes with just my section, one class with my section and one other section, and two classes with my section and two other sections.

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Tanicius
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby Tanicius » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:20 pm

danidancer wrote:Cornell sections are apx. 30 people, so a third of what you have here. This semester I had two classes with just my section, one class with my section and one other section, and two classes with my section and two other sections.


This indicates to me that ranking and measuring "section" size of the law schools is largely a hopeless endeavor. Cornell defines their sections smaller... but they have classes with other sections, which partly negates that advantage. Other schools have sections as large as 90 students but they never combine with other sections, and they split their 90-student sections up for the smaller, more intimate courses, accomplishing the same exact task as Cornell but doing it from the opposite direction.

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clintonius
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby clintonius » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:21 pm

Tanicius wrote:accomplishing the same exact task as Cornell but doing it from the opposite direction.

Sort of like catapulting OUT of the gorge.

HeavenWood
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:59 pm

IAFG wrote:Based on the placement data the HLSers leaked, it appears they placed around how CLS/NYU placed. Then again I don't know how SLS has weathered the storm since CA has been so ugly.


Do you think that has anything to do with self-selection for clerkships or prestigious PI jobs?

naruhodo
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Re: T-14 Ranked by First-Year Section Size

Postby naruhodo » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:43 pm

clintonius wrote:
naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

1. What definition?

2. This sounds like the smaller groups that every school has for LRW classes, which are not the same thing as a section.


1. By definition I meant this:

dcpolitico wrote:each section stays together for all of its course work.


2. It's different from LRW classes, as YLS small groups have one substantive course (Constitutional Law, Contracts, Procedure, or Torts) with a full professor by themselves.

Tanicius wrote:
This indicates to me that ranking and measuring "section" size of the law schools is largely a hopeless endeavor. Cornell defines their sections smaller... but they have classes with other sections, which partly negates that advantage. Other schools have sections as large as 90 students but they never combine with other sections, and they split their 90-student sections up for the smaller, more intimate courses, accomplishing the same exact task as Cornell but doing it from the opposite direction.


Agreed.




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