Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14 Forum

[mpasi]

You said, "I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether." And, "If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can." What you are saying, that SURELY a T14 grad can get a job if they want one, is what I have a problem with. Obviously OP has engendered a great deal of disdain in this thread, and I don't care about that. I care about YOU saying that SURELY a T14 grad can get a job, even though there aren't enough jobs out there.

What should have been obvious there is that OP isn't trying all that hard. She's made it plain to us that she hasn't. If someone who graduated from a T4 in the middle of her class can find a $70K job, OP should be able to find something. It's about compromise, not entitlement. I'm entitled to a lot of things., but it doesn't mean I'm going to get them just because I'm entitled to them.

Now I don't know what you're talking about anymore. So there weren't enough jobs out there for all T14 grads even in boom times, and now there are at least 1/2 as many jobs out there. Or are you saying that all those T14 grads were just lazy too?

My point was that it's never been easy to find a legal job. No one is saying that it's ever been easy. I certainly haven't, and wouldn't given the state of the economy, but considering OP's lack of effort, I stick by what I said about her sense of entitlement. Those T-14 grads found jobs eventually, btw.

SOME people are finding jobs. Not all. Maybe not even most. SOME. That is the difference between you and me. You see one person get a job and extrapolate that ALL people can get jobs, and I do not. Shit, I have a job lined up, so obviously it's doable, but like I said, I know people that don't. I don't think I got a job because I tried and they didn't. Hard working, smart T14 grads are getting shut out of employment. That is the reality of ITE. Maybe OP is just a lazy a-hole, I don't know, but I'm not tell OP that they can surely get a job if they just try, because I know that's a lie.

Not just "some". Many people are dropping the "woe is me" bullshit and taking what's available. OP needs to follow suit. That's what you seem to be missing....she only wants a certain kind of job, not what she can get. She'd have a much easier time if she'd drop the "biglaw or bust" attitude she seems to have and just look for any legal job, or something law-related.

[vanwinkle]

Let's just get really simple: Do you or do you not believe that every T14 CAN get a job if they want one?

You seem to be saying yes and no, so let's get some clarification. I do NOT believe every T14 can get a job if they want one, because there just aren't enough legal jobs out there. I'm not sure even in boom times there were enough jobs to go around.

At the end of the day, if you honestly believe there's a job for every T14 then there's nothing to really discuss. I disagree, and I'm not about to blame the unemployed for their woes unless it's clear their problems are of their own making.

Yes, I do. However, I do also acknowledge that "if they want one" is subjective because some people have to want it more than others. Someone who graded onto Law Review is likely to have to do a lot less work than someone who's bottom third of the class. The problem seems to be that people are coming in not realizing that if you're not at the top the amount of work (and the amount of settling) you have to do in order to get a job increases dramatically ITE.

In boom times were there enough jobs to go around to everyone? Hell no. But enough for the entire T14? Yeah, there definitely were. And I think there still are now, though the act of finding those jobs and selling yourself as a good fit for them is a lot more work than it used to be.

[Action Jackson]

What should have been obvious there is that OP isn't trying all that hard. She's made it plain to us that she hasn't. If someone who graduated from a T4 in the middle of her class can find a $70K job, OP should be able to find something. It's about compromise, not entitlement. I'm entitled to a lot of things., but it doesn't mean I'm going to get them just because I'm entitled to them.

Once again, I do not care about the OP. I care about every other T14 grad, and the ridiculous assertion that every single one of them should be able to get a job because you know one person in the middle of their class at a T4 that landed a $70k job. Frankly, that is a ridiculous assertion.

Look, if you think OP is a twat or something you should have just said, "Dear OP, you a twat." But you didn't. You made an assertion that applies to all T14'ers, and it's nonsense. Now, maybe you believe that all T14 grads have jobs avialable to them, as VW does, but I think that's unfounded, and if you go out and talk to some people without jobs out there you'd find out they're not all lazy a-holes unwilling to settle. There is genuinely a dearth of employment opportunities out there, even for T14 grads.

[GATORTIM]

Why do posts in this thread get progressively longer? If you can't get your point across in a 100 words or less then you probably don't have one

[mpasi]

What should have been obvious there is that OP isn't trying all that hard. She's made it plain to us that she hasn't. If someone who graduated from a T4 in the middle of her class can find a $70K job, OP should be able to find something. It's about compromise, not entitlement. I'm entitled to a lot of things., but it doesn't mean I'm going to get them just because I'm entitled to them.

Once again, I do not care about the OP. I care about every other T14 grad, and the ridiculous assertion that every single one of them should be able to get a job because you know one person in the middle of their class at a T4 that landed a $70k job. Frankly, that is a ridiculous assertion.

Yes you do care, because you've spent the last hour making OP the T-14 Every Man. Either that, or you don't know how to not personalize your arguments.

Look, if you think OP is a twat or something you should have just said, "Dear OP, you a twat."

These LSD and Auto Admit trolls start early. It's a flame, people. Stop playing with it. Pretty soon we'll be seeing posts from the JDs who are doing part-time doc review or are arguing the merits of FISA while handing people their change at 7-11. Just wait and see.

For future reference: Low post count + recent registration + bullshit cautionary "OMGZ, lawl school suckz!" post = troll.

But you didn't. You made an assertion that applies to all T14'ers, and it's nonsense. Now, maybe you believe that all T14 grads have jobs avialable to them, as VW does, but I think that's unfounded, and if you go out and talk to some people without jobs out there you'd find out they're not all lazy a-holes unwilling to settle. There is genuinely a dearth of employment opportunities out there, even for T14 grads.

What I said and what you think I said are two different things. I said OP isn't trying hard enough. It's pretty obvious that she isn't, and not just to me. I also said that OP should adjust her expectations in her job search, and again, I'm not the only one who thinks this. I never said OP was lazy, I simply said she wasn't trying hard enough. I don't know how that translates to "OMG, you're so effing lazy!" I can tell there's a limit to what she's willing to do, as evidenced by her posts. And again, stop personalizing it and twisting my comments to fit your straw man argument. I didn't actually say anything like the things you're spewing, so stop. And when the economy is crap and you need money, you should absolutely settle. Thinking you're going to get the $160K job Van mentioned in this shitty ass economy is simple stupidity. It ain't gon' happen, okay? Therefore, you need to change your game a bit, put up more effort, and just wait.

[PDaddy]

I will offer this from the LSAC website. Interesting statistics on the likelihood of acceptance by age, ethnicity, etc. Looks like the younger the student, the better the grades and scores and the more likely the acceptance. The older you are, the less likely you are to get into even one school. This is not surprising, but it also indicates that there exists some age bias in the LSAT (across ethnicities).

http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/ ... -Group.pdf

http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/data/ ... ummary.asp

So applying to law school is still a decent proposition for the best performing younger applicants, who are, by virtue of their age(s), able to absorb the risks associated with going to law school in the first place. *If you are older and have no money saved up, and have no significant scholarship, it's probably not a good idea to go to law school at this time, unless you get into a top school or have a strong benefactor and are not risking much.

*Somebody over 40 diagram that last sentence, just for fun.

Hint: I believe "probably" means "most likely" or "more often than not", both of which can translate to "most" in formal logic.

[Action Jackson]

What I said and what you think I said are two different things.

Fine, I'll bite, what, precisely, does this mean:

I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether... If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can.

Just be clear, does this apply to OP and only OP, or does this apply to anyone in a similar position as OP "surely" can find a job?

If it's the former, than you are correct and I misunderstood this and every subsequent post of yours, for which I apologize. If it's the latter, then stop pretending like I just don't get you.

If you're saying that other T14 grads shouldn't expect that they can surely get a job -- which is what I've been saying -- then you and I have no disagreement.

So?

[bk1]

I will offer this from the LSAC website. Interesting statistics on the likelihood of acceptance by age, ethnicity, etc. Looks like the younger the student, the better the grades and scores and the more likely the acceptance. The older you are, the less likely you are to get into even one school. This is not surprising, but it also indicates that there exists some age bias in the LSAT (across ethnicities).

So applying to law school is still a decent proposition for the best performing younger applicants, who are, by virtue of their age(s), able to absorb the risks associated with going to law school in the first place. *If you are older and have no money saved up, and have no significant scholarship, it's probably not a good idea to go to law school at this time, unless you get into a top school or have a strong benefactor and are not risking much.

*Somebody over 40 diagram that last sentence, just for fun.

Age encompasses a lot of things. Older applicants who are already settled down may not have the option to move their family and thus may only have a small pool of schools they can go to whereas younger applicants who apply more broadly can find it easier to find an acceptance. Older applicants may also be less apt to search for info on the process, such as TLS, and end up overweighing soft factors or think that their GPA from a while ago is irrelevant and apply incorrectly.

[mpasi]

What I said and what you think I said are two different things.

Fine, I'll bite, what, precisely, does this mean:

I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether... If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can.

Just be clear, does this apply to OP and only OP, or does this apply to anyone in a similar position as OP "surely" can find a job?

If it's the former, than you are correct and I misunderstood this and every subsequent post of yours, for which I apologize. If it's the latter, then stop pretending like I just don't get you.

If you're saying that other T14 grads shouldn't expect that they can surely get a job -- which is what I've been saying -- then you and I have no disagreement.

So?

My T4 friend is an example of someone who relied on hard work instead of entitlement to find a job. She absolutely busted her ass to get that job. And again, I made it about OP, not every T-14 grad as you were doing, though, if every T-14 grad is like OP (which I doubt), then it is about them. It applies to anyone who thinks something should be handed to them just 'cause.

I didn't offer her up as some sort of gold standard. I simply used her as an example of someone can make it in this economy if they bust their asses hard enough, and are willing to compromise what they want in the short term. Why you think that's so unreasonable is beyond me. It's common sense.

[PDaddy]

I will offer this from the LSAC website. Interesting statistics on the likelihood of acceptance by age, ethnicity, etc. Looks like the younger the student, the better the grades and scores and the more likely the acceptance. The older you are, the less likely you are to get into even one school. This is not surprising, but it also indicates that there exists some age bias in the LSAT (across ethnicities).

So applying to law school is still a decent proposition for the best performing younger applicants, who are, by virtue of their age(s), able to absorb the risks associated with going to law school in the first place. *If you are older and have no money saved up, and have no significant scholarship, it's probably not a good idea to go to law school at this time, unless you get into a top school or have a strong benefactor and are not risking much.

*Somebody over 40 diagram that last sentence, just for fun.

Age encompasses a lot of things. Older applicants who are already settled down may not have the option to move their family and thus may only have a small pool of schools they can go to whereas younger applicants who apply more broadly can find it easier to find an acceptance. Older applicants may also be less apt to search for info on the process, such as TLS, and end up overweighing soft factors or think that their GPA from a while ago is irrelevant and apply incorrectly.

Most of this is true. Add to that the relatively increased level of importance a younger applicant places on acceptance. I disagree somewhat that older applicants miscalculate the impact soft factors should have. They correctly assume that their soft factors will take on increased relevance, however, this works better in theory than in practice because of the increased number of applicants with good grades and scores. Additionally, we have to face the truth: law firms are ultimately doing most of the hiring, and they, ironically, discriminate just like every employer does. They prefer youth! The schools and the entire process are responsive to that demand.

In the above argument, PDaddy responds to bk187 by:

a) Attacking the character of bk187

b) Pointing out that bk187 presumes the conclusion of his argument

c) Questioning bk187's expertise in law school admissions

d) Disputing the accuracy of bk187's statements

e) Qualifying his agreement with the main point of bk187's argument

I'm bored!

[Action Jackson]

What I said and what you think I said are two different things.

Fine, I'll bite, what, precisely, does this mean:

I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether... If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can.

Just be clear, does this apply to OP and only OP, or does this apply to anyone in a similar position as OP "surely" can find a job?

If it's the former, than you are correct and I misunderstood this and every subsequent post of yours, for which I apologize. If it's the latter, then stop pretending like I just don't get you.

If you're saying that other T14 grads shouldn't expect that they can surely get a job -- which is what I've been saying -- then you and I have no disagreement.

So?

My T4 friend is an example of someone who relied on hard work instead of entitlement to find a job. She absolutely busted her ass to get that job. And again, I made it about OP, not every T-14 grad as you were doing, though, if every T-14 grad is like OP (which I doubt), then it is about them. It applies to anyone who thinks something should be handed to them just 'cause.

I didn't offer her up as some sort of gold standard. I simply used her as an example of someone can make it in this economy if they bust their asses hard enough, and are willing to compromise what they want in the short term. Why you think that's so unreasonable is beyond me. It's common sense.

Sooo.... I ask you to just be clear, even offering pre-apologizing if I was wrong, and you don't bother to actually answer me clearly. Got it. I'm officially done with you.

[mpasi]

What I said and what you think I said are two different things.

Fine, I'll bite, what, precisely, does this mean:

I have friends who just graduated from lower-ranked schools that have jobs already. Not small firms, ether... If someone from a T4 with no connections can find a law job, surely you can.

Just be clear, does this apply to OP and only OP, or does this apply to anyone in a similar position as OP "surely" can find a job?

If it's the former, than you are correct and I misunderstood this and every subsequent post of yours, for which I apologize. If it's the latter, then stop pretending like I just don't get you.

If you're saying that other T14 grads shouldn't expect that they can surely get a job -- which is what I've been saying -- then you and I have no disagreement.

So?

My T4 friend is an example of someone who relied on hard work instead of entitlement to find a job. She absolutely busted her ass to get that job. And again, I made it about OP, not every T-14 grad as you were doing, though, if every T-14 grad is like OP (which I doubt), then it is about them. It applies to anyone who thinks something should be handed to them just 'cause.

I didn't offer her up as some sort of gold standard. I simply used her as an example of someone can make it in this economy if they bust their asses hard enough, and are willing to compromise what they want in the short term. Why you think that's so unreasonable is beyond me. It's common sense.

Sooo.... I ask you to just be clear, even offering pre-apologizing if I was wrong, and you don't bother to actually answer me clearly. Got it. I'm officially done with you.

That's fine with me, because you're silly.

[vanwinkle]

Why do posts in this thread get progressively longer? If you can't get your point across in a 100 words or less then you probably don't have one

I can't make a point in less than 100 words. Are you kidding? A fully reasoned response requires not just a brief bullet point but articulation of...

...oh crap, I'm doing it again, aren't I.

[MTal]

Bravo action jackson, bravo.

[whymeohgodno]

You guys could realize that OP knew only 2 people throughout his/her law school time.

If she then said everyone she knew didn't have a job, it could not only be true, but highly plausible.

[vanwinkle]

You guys could realize that OP knew only 2 people throughout his/her law school time.

If she then said everyone she knew didn't have a job, it could not only be true, but highly plausible.

The problem is OP titled their thread with a declaration that law school is a "disastrous" decision for "many" at T14s. "Many" suggests a lot more than 2.

[whymeohgodno]

You guys could realize that OP knew only 2 people throughout his/her law school time.

If she then said everyone she knew didn't have a job, it could not only be true, but highly plausible.

The problem is OP titled their thread with a declaration that law school is a "disastrous" decision for "many" at T14s. "Many" suggests a lot more than 2.

NOT IN THE LSAT WORLD!!!!!

Oh wait this is real life...

[Doritos]

Oh wait this is real life...

Is it? Is this real life?

[MTal]

You guys could realize that OP knew only 2 people throughout his/her law school time.

If she then said everyone she knew didn't have a job, it could not only be true, but highly plausible.

The problem is OP titled their thread with a declaration that law school is a "disastrous" decision for "many" at T14s. "Many" suggests a lot more than 2.

2/3rds at G-Town didn't get biglaw last time around. That doesn't constitute "many" according to you?

[vanwinkle]

Is this real life?

Is this just fantasy?

[ResolutePear]

Is this real life?

Is this just fantasy?

THIS IS SPARTA!

[Doritos]

Is this real life?

Is this just fantasy?

fantastic reference

[Action Jackson]

Is this real life?

Is this just fantasy?

fantastic reference

+1. Best reply ever.

[whymeohgodno]

Is this real life?

Is this just fantasy?

Caught in a landslide
No escape from reality

[testmachine45]

are you real azn?