Does prestige really matter after T-6?

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El Rey Negro
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Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby El Rey Negro » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:49 pm

With USNews basically having the legal ranking system by its nuts, prestige now plays a huge factor in the legal community. This tends to make some people subconsciously view Yale grads as more accomplished than Columbia grads, Harvard grads more elite than Stanford grads & NYU grads not even close to their neighbors up the island. I know Im not the only one who's seen those silly "arguments". Does it really matter where you go to school after you reach T-6? If you're dedicated, disciplined & willing to go further than your peers, would it really be that much of a factor on your career if you went to Chicago instead of Harvard?

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bk1
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby bk1 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:50 pm

It's not the rankings that make people think HYS > CCN, it is the legal community.

Look at the employment prospects of people coming out of HYS as opposed to CCN, that is prestige in action.

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Hannibal
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby Hannibal » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:02 am

I talked to a guy that used to be a partner at Jones Day. He considered there to be more disparity between positions 1 and 4 than between 20 and 30.

GettingReady2010
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:10 am

Hannibal wrote:I talked to a guy that used to be a partner at Jones Day. He considered there to be more disparity between positions 1 and 4 than between 20 and 30.


I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:22 am

El Rey Negro wrote:Does it really matter where you go to school after you reach T-6? If you're dedicated, disciplined & willing to go further than your peers, would it really be that much of a factor on your career if you went to Chicago instead of Harvard?

With more dedication, discipline, and willingness to go further, it's possible to go farther from Chicago than many Harvard people go. I'm sure there are people at Harvard who graduate and coast from there, and a hard worker from Chicago could surpass them in overall achievement in the long run. However, if you were comparing two people of similar dedication, discipline, and drive from the different schools, I'd put my money on the Harvard guy going farther every time. The name and the networking opportunities it presents are just worth that much more, even more than a Chicago or Columbia or school along those lines.

Renzo
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby Renzo » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:26 am

vanwinkle wrote:
El Rey Negro wrote:Does it really matter where you go to school after you reach T-6? If you're dedicated, disciplined & willing to go further than your peers, would it really be that much of a factor on your career if you went to Chicago instead of Harvard?

With more dedication, discipline, and willingness to go further, it's possible to go farther from Chicago than many Harvard people go. I'm sure there are people at Harvard who graduate and coast from there, and a hard worker from Chicago could surpass them in overall achievement in the long run. However, if you were comparing two people of similar dedication, discipline, and drive from the different schools, I'd put my money on the Harvard guy going farther every time. The name and the networking opportunities it presents are just worth that much more, even more than a Chicago or Columbia or school along those lines.

See, e.g., the Supreme Court of the United States.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:36 am

Uh, yeh?

Would you rather go to some bottom ranked t14 or some school in TTT?

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drdolittle
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby drdolittle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:56 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Based on what?!

GettingReady2010
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:58 am

drdolittle wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Based on what?!


NLJ250 placement and SCOTUS placement.

2011Law
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby 2011Law » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:00 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Yeah I dunno about this either. Bigger difference between Yale and Chicago than between George Washington and University of Maine? No way.

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drdolittle
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby drdolittle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:04 am

2011Law wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Yeah I dunno about this either. Bigger difference between Yale and Chicago than between George Washington and University of Maine? No way.


Yeah, good examples, a really dumb original comment indeed. Nothing against GR2010 though...everybody makes stupid posts.

2011Law
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby 2011Law » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:05 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Based on what?!


NLJ250 placement and SCOTUS placement.


If all you consider law school to be about is placement there, then for you you're probably right, but to the 99.9% of us who have more humble goals than Chief Justice or President of Earth, there's more to look at when choosing law school.

EDIT: spelling error due to too many lsat pts

GettingReady2010
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:15 am

drdolittle wrote:
2011Law wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Yeah I dunno about this either. Bigger difference between Yale and Chicago than between George Washington and University of Maine? No way.


Yeah, good examples, a really dumb original comment indeed. Nothing against GR2010 though...everybody makes stupid posts.


You seem kind of offended by my post to break out ad hominem attacks. Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? Are you going to GW or something?

The reason I think this is because a school ranked 20 has only a strong regional reputation, same as many lower ranked tier 2s. Yale, on the other hand, has placed countless Presidents and SC Justices. Columbia has not. When the economy is bad T2 grads are screwed and so are GW grads. Also, when the economy is bad even Columbia grads struggle. Yale grads don't.

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Hannibal
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby Hannibal » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:22 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Based on what?!


NLJ250 placement and SCOTUS placement.


Are you seriously going to judge schools based on the minuscule chance at a SCOTUS placement or some other absurdly high position? Let's consider the numbers from 2005 in terms of total clerkships and 250.

Yale beats Chicago on clerkships by about 30%. Chicago has Yale on 250 firms by about 20%. That's a 10% difference.

GW has 10% clerkships, and about 24% biglaw. Hofstra (86) has about 5% biglaw and 3% clerkships. A 26% difference.

In regards to clerkships, I see your point that Yale destroys in number and prestige. But even then Seton Hall has 35% clerkships to Yale's 50%.

Also, your definition of "screwed" is pretty vague.

GettingReady2010
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:26 am

Hannibal wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Based on what?!


NLJ250 placement and SCOTUS placement.


Are you seriously going to judge schools based on the minuscule chance at a SCOTUS placement or some other absurdly high position? Let's consider the numbers from 2005 in terms of total clerkships and 250.

Yale beats Chicago on clerkships by about 30%. Chicago has Yale on 250 firms by about 20%. That's a 10% difference.

GW has 10% clerkships, and about 24% biglaw. Hofstra (86) has about 5% biglaw and 3% clerkships. A 26% difference.

In regards to clerkships, I see your point that Yale destroys in number and prestige. But even then Seton Hall has 35% clerkships to Yale's 50%.

Also, your definition of "screwed" is pretty vague.


I retract my statement regarding NLJ 250 placement, because Yale is unique in that respect. I think Harvard and Stanford beat Yale in NLJ 250 placement, but that's not because Yale grads struggle against these schools to secure these positions. It's because, IMO, Yale grads are being offered prestigious clerkships lefts and right and would gladly take them over biglaw.

2011Law
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby 2011Law » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:28 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:
2011Law wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:I would probably say that there is more of a disparity between 1 and 4 than between 20 and 100.


Yeah I dunno about this either. Bigger difference between Yale and Chicago than between George Washington and University of Maine? No way.


Yeah, good examples, a really dumb original comment indeed. Nothing against GR2010 though...everybody makes stupid posts.


You seem kind of offended by my post to break out ad hominem attacks. Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? Are you going to GW or something?

The reason I think this is because a school ranked 20 has only a strong regional reputation, same as many lower ranked tier 2s. Yale, on the other hand, has placed countless Presidents and SC Justices. Columbia has not. When the economy is bad T2 grads are screwed and so are GW grads. Also, when the economy is bad even Columbia grads struggle. Yale grads don't.


yeah GW is one of my targets, but you pretty much made my point in your response. there are more jobs out there than I think you realize. Yes you will have way more opportunities graduating from a top school, but you are not automatically screwed if you go to a non t-14 school or TTT. people at the bottom of any school will have a hard time finding work (the only person I know who went to Yale law came out with nothing), and the people who do good or are good in a field will do good (uncle went to nova and he's got a few milli in the bank).
Last edited by 2011Law on Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hannibal
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby Hannibal » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:29 am

The point is that people that were competitive for placements in clerkships at Yale probably went to biglaw if they did not get a clerkship. Unfortunately comparing clerkships to biglaw is like apples to oranges.

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drdolittle
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby drdolittle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:42 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:You seem kind of offended by my post to break out ad hominem attacks. Did I offend your delicate sensibilities?


Oh no, I really don't care what you think about me, as you shouldn't really care what I think about you. This is an anonymous forum so it's important to have some tolerance for direct challenges of ideas, which are not necessarily "attacks" even if they're strongly worded.

But the only reason I responded the way I did, and I qualified my remark by pointing out it's nothing personal, is that some folks who know even less about law school admissions than you do might read your post and waste calories trying to make sense of it. As Hannibal aptly argued, your post made no real sense at all, even if you thought it did. I hope this doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities though. Remember, it's not personal.

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Hannibal
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby Hannibal » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:51 am

drdolittle wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:You seem kind of offended by my post to break out ad hominem attacks. Did I offend your delicate sensibilities?


Oh no, I really don't care what you think about me, as you shouldn't really care what I think about you. This is an anonymous forum so it's important to have some tolerance for direct challenges of ideas, which are not necessarily "attacks" even if they're strongly worded.


I think Briatharen has proven that incorrect. Also, Dean Asha at Yale.

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bk1
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby bk1 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:53 am

Yeah bro, don't care what your future classmates and colleagues think of you.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:57 am

bk1 wrote:It's not the rankings that make people think HYS > CCN, it is the legal community.

Look at the employment prospects of people coming out of HYS as opposed to CCN, that is prestige in action.


Compare Harvard to Chicago. Find me two meaningful opportunity or placement statistics that show a per capita advantage for Harvard grads. You can't .

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drdolittle
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby drdolittle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:00 am

bk1 wrote:Yeah bro, don't care what your future classmates and colleagues think of you.


That's definitely not what I meant. But I choose to use TLS anonymously so I do not consider most other posters as my actual peers (though of course I know actual peers are out there too). I do think the vast majority of users are in this boat, at least based on comments.

d34d9823
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby d34d9823 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:02 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
bk1 wrote:It's not the rankings that make people think HYS > CCN, it is the legal community.

Look at the employment prospects of people coming out of HYS as opposed to CCN, that is prestige in action.


Compare Harvard to Chicago. Find me two meaningful opportunity or placement statistics that show a per capita advantage for Harvard grads. You can't .

Supreme Court Justice, President of the United States.

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babaghanouj
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby babaghanouj » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:03 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:...Yale, on the other hand, has placed countless Presidents and SC Justices.

lol

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vanwinkle
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Re: Does prestige really matter after T-6?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:07 am

d34dluk3 wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
bk1 wrote:It's not the rankings that make people think HYS > CCN, it is the legal community.

Look at the employment prospects of people coming out of HYS as opposed to CCN, that is prestige in action.


Compare Harvard to Chicago. Find me two meaningful opportunity or placement statistics that show a per capita advantage for Harvard grads. You can't .

Supreme Court Justice, President of the United States.

Good ones. Also, this: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009job_teaching.shtml There are a lot more professors with Harvard degrees than Chicago degrees currently out there, and as Leiter notes (by trying to create a "per capita" metric comparing it to graduating class size) it's a larger gap than can be accounted for with the difference in graduating class sizes.

But since there are so many different opportunities spread around out there, it's hard to find a single one where the Harvard name makes an easily documentable difference, except at those upper-echelon levels.




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