Withdrawals?

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mcll92
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Withdrawals?

Postby mcll92 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:44 am

I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?

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Knock
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:52 am

mcll92 wrote:I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?


It might hurt a little with that many withdrawals, but I don't think it will make a significant difference really. Especially if you can write a good addendum explaining why and showing how you've matured.

However, if any of those are withdrawal-fail, then your LSDAS GPA will be much lower than your school GPA.

03121202698008
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:53 am

mcll92 wrote:I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?


What is your LSDAS GPA? There is a calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com. Were these punitive withdrawals or you dropped at the beginning of the class?

mcll92
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby mcll92 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:34 am

blowhard wrote:
mcll92 wrote:I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?


What is your LSDAS GPA? There is a calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com. Were these punitive withdrawals or you dropped at the beginning of the class?



Non-punitive; They weren't calculated in my GPA.
Not sure what they will use in the calculation, but including all coursework, my LSDAS GPA is 3.64.
If they only include work since my transfer, then 3.83

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ArchRoark
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby ArchRoark » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:48 am

mcll92 wrote:
blowhard wrote:
mcll92 wrote:I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?


What is your LSDAS GPA? There is a calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com. Were these punitive withdrawals or you dropped at the beginning of the class?



Non-punitive; They weren't calculated in my GPA.
Not sure what they will use in the calculation, but including all coursework, my LSDAS GPA is 3.64.
If they only include work since my transfer, then 3.83


They include all.

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Knock
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:53 am

Tiva wrote:
mcll92 wrote:
blowhard wrote:
mcll92 wrote:I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?


What is your LSDAS GPA? There is a calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com. Were these punitive withdrawals or you dropped at the beginning of the class?



Non-punitive; They weren't calculated in my GPA.
Not sure what they will use in the calculation, but including all coursework, my LSDAS GPA is 3.64.
If they only include work since my transfer, then 3.83


They include all.


They don't include non-punitive W's. So you're looking at 3.64, which is very respectable. Personally, I probably would write an addendum about why you got all those W's if you have some sort of excuse and explain that you've matured since then.

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billyez
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby billyez » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:55 am

I agree with KnockGlock. Once you reached past 4 to 5 withdrawals you got to a point where a very targeted and direct addendum in regards to why you withdrew so many times is necessary.

mcll92
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby mcll92 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:07 am

Tiva wrote:
mcll92 wrote:
blowhard wrote:
mcll92 wrote:I have 10 withdrawals on my college transcript. 9 were from my 1st yr when I dropped all classes but one. Since then, I have a 3.5 GPA from comm college, and a 3.8 since transferring to a top public university. Will the withdrawals severely hurt my chances of getting into a tier 1 or 2 law school, even with a 167 LSAT score?


What is your LSDAS GPA? There is a calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com. Were these punitive withdrawals or you dropped at the beginning of the class?



Non-punitive; They weren't calculated in my GPA.
Not sure what they will use in the calculation, but including all coursework, my LSDAS GPA is 3.64.
If they only include work since my transfer, then 3.83


They include all.



My counselor told me they would only include my grades after the transfer. This sucks, I'm going to need to pull up my grades this fall.

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Knock
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:23 am

mcll92 wrote:
Tiva wrote:
mcll92 wrote:
blowhard wrote:What is your LSDAS GPA? There is a calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com. Were these punitive withdrawals or you dropped at the beginning of the class?



Non-punitive; They weren't calculated in my GPA.
Not sure what they will use in the calculation, but including all coursework, my LSDAS GPA is 3.64.
If they only include work since my transfer, then 3.83


They include all.


My counselor told me they would only include my grades after the transfer. This sucks, I'm going to need to pull up my grades this fall.


This may be a sign to ignore any advice from this counselor.

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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:47 am

Knockglock wrote:
This may be a sign to ignore any advice from this counselor.


+1. A surprising amount of counselors have no idea what LSAC's rules are. Whether the school calculated those withdrawals doesn't matter. What does your transcript say for these credits? Just straight withdrawal? Does it say credits were attempted?

Any grade notation that signifies failure (such as No Credit, No Credit/Fail, Not Passing, Incomplete/Fail, Withdraw/Fail, Unsatisfactory, Fail, etc.) is converted to zero on the 4.0 scale and is included in the calculation of the GPA, even if the issuing school considers the grade to be nonpunitive. Failure is defined as credit attempted but not earned. If a transcript is not clear about credit attempted, LSAC staff will contact the registrar at the issuing school to confirm whether course credit was attempted. Incomplete and Withdraw grades considered punitive by the issuing school will be included in the conversion. The only exception to this policy is for No Credit, Withdraw/Fail, repeated courses, and incomplete grades specifically explained in Grades Excluded From Conversion.

mcll92
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby mcll92 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:27 pm

blowhard wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
This may be a sign to ignore any advice from this counselor.


+1. A surprising amount of counselors have no idea what LSAC's rules are. Whether the school calculated those withdrawals doesn't matter. What does your transcript say for these credits? Just straight withdrawal? Does it say credits were attempted?

Any grade notation that signifies failure (such as No Credit, No Credit/Fail, Not Passing, Incomplete/Fail, Withdraw/Fail, Unsatisfactory, Fail, etc.) is converted to zero on the 4.0 scale and is included in the calculation of the GPA, even if the issuing school considers the grade to be nonpunitive. Failure is defined as credit attempted but not earned. If a transcript is not clear about credit attempted, LSAC staff will contact the registrar at the issuing school to confirm whether course credit was attempted. Incomplete and Withdraw grades considered punitive by the issuing school will be included in the conversion. The only exception to this policy is for No Credit, Withdraw/Fail, repeated courses, and incomplete grades specifically explained in Grades Excluded From Conversion.



From what I understand, they were just straight withdrawals. I wasn't failing these classes, just getting C's or realized I didn't have time to complete them properly due to personal issues. Here's the website with my school's grading policies: http://www.registrar.ufl.edu/catalog/po ... rades.html
My transcript has the W's.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:34 pm

Since your school explicitly states that they are non-punitive withdrawals, LSAC shouldn't factor it into your GPA. However, the only way to know for sure is to send your transcript into LSAC so that they can do their transcript summarization and generate an academic summary report for you. LSAC is notorious for being unpredictable in how it treats withdrawals.

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Knock
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:35 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:Since your school explicitly states that they are non-punitive withdrawals, LSAC shouldn't factor it into your GPA. However, the only way to know for sure is to send your transcript into LSAC so that they can do their transcript summarization and generate an academic summary report for you. LSAC is notorious for being unpredictable in how it treats withdrawals.


Wait what? I haven't heard any problems from people who have clearly non-punitive withdrawals.

03121202698008
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:40 pm

Knockglock wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Since your school explicitly states that they are non-punitive withdrawals, LSAC shouldn't factor it into your GPA. However, the only way to know for sure is to send your transcript into LSAC so that they can do their transcript summarization and generate an academic summary report for you. LSAC is notorious for being unpredictable in how it treats withdrawals.


Wait what? I haven't heard any problems from people who have clearly non-punitive withdrawals.


In past cycles, LSAC occasionally (seemingly randomly) evaluated whether a withdrawal was punitive or not. In at least one case that I remember, they factored it in because the school included the credits from that course in the total # attempted. I think the variability really has to do with most schools putting a W on the transcript but then they all have different policies about whether or not it is punitive.

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Knock
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:45 pm

blowhard wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Since your school explicitly states that they are non-punitive withdrawals, LSAC shouldn't factor it into your GPA. However, the only way to know for sure is to send your transcript into LSAC so that they can do their transcript summarization and generate an academic summary report for you. LSAC is notorious for being unpredictable in how it treats withdrawals.


Wait what? I haven't heard any problems from people who have clearly non-punitive withdrawals.


In past cycles, LSAC occasionally (seemingly randomly) evaluated whether a withdrawal was punitive or not. In at least one case that I remember, they factored it in because the school included the credits from that course in the total # attempted. I think the variability really has to do with most schools putting a W on the transcript but then they all have different policies about whether or not it is punitive.


Wow. Another reason to dislike LSAC :x.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:51 pm

Knockglock wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Since your school explicitly states that they are non-punitive withdrawals, LSAC shouldn't factor it into your GPA. However, the only way to know for sure is to send your transcript into LSAC so that they can do their transcript summarization and generate an academic summary report for you. LSAC is notorious for being unpredictable in how it treats withdrawals.


Wait what? I haven't heard any problems from people who have clearly non-punitive withdrawals.


In past cycles, LSAC occasionally (seemingly randomly) evaluated whether a withdrawal was punitive or not. In at least one case that I remember, they factored it in because the school included the credits from that course in the total # attempted. I think the variability really has to do with most schools putting a W on the transcript but then they all have different policies about whether or not it is punitive.


Wow. Another reason to dislike LSAC :x.


To be fair, LSAC has an incredibly difficult task that can't be done without it being unfair to someone; dealing with 1,000+ different grading systems every year is a monumental task, and plenty of schools don't have a sensible grading policy. For instance, plenty of schools don't have punitive and non-punitive withdrawals differentiated on their transcripts, so LSAC has to sort that out and sometimes can't do it to everyone's satisfaction.

czelede
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby czelede » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:00 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
To be fair, LSAC has an incredibly difficult task that can't be done without it being unfair to someone; dealing with 1,000+ different grading systems every year is a monumental task, and plenty of schools don't have a sensible grading policy. For instance, plenty of schools don't have punitive and non-punitive withdrawals differentiated on their transcripts, so LSAC has to sort that out and sometimes can't do it to everyone's satisfaction.


If LSAC unfairly calculates a non punitive W into your GPA, is there any way to contest it?

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Knock
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby Knock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:08 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Knockglock wrote:Wait what? I haven't heard any problems from people who have clearly non-punitive withdrawals.


In past cycles, LSAC occasionally (seemingly randomly) evaluated whether a withdrawal was punitive or not. In at least one case that I remember, they factored it in because the school included the credits from that course in the total # attempted. I think the variability really has to do with most schools putting a W on the transcript but then they all have different policies about whether or not it is punitive.


Wow. Another reason to dislike LSAC :x.


To be fair, LSAC has an incredibly difficult task that can't be done without it being unfair to someone; dealing with 1,000+ different grading systems every year is a monumental task, and plenty of schools don't have a sensible grading policy. For instance, plenty of schools don't have punitive and non-punitive withdrawals differentiated on their transcripts, so LSAC has to sort that out and sometimes can't do it to everyone's satisfaction.


I'm not saying they need to be perfect, or completely fair to everyone. However, I do think there is room for improvement, and I think there are at least a few easy fixes that would level the playing field much more (counting A+'s as only 4.00, not counting college grades from classes taken in high school, etc.)

cherylann
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby cherylann » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:52 pm

I also had a question about Course Withdrawals that I was wondering if someone could please help me with. I have had a number of course withdrawals on my undergraduate transcript due to having to withdrawal for medical reasons (circumstance beyond my control). It is just W's on my transcript, therefore, they are not punitive since they havent affected my school gpa and on the transcript it clearly states that Withdrawals (regular W's are not factored in). However, on the transcript it lists total attempted hours, and therefore, doesnt LSAC count failure as credit attempted but not earned? So because my transcript says this, am I doomed? anyone else been in this situation? if so, how did LSAC treat your W's???

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neeko
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby neeko » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:08 am

cherylann wrote:I also had a question about Course Withdrawals that I was wondering if someone could please help me with. I have had a number of course withdrawals on my undergraduate transcript due to having to withdrawal for medical reasons (circumstance beyond my control). It is just W's on my transcript, therefore, they are not punitive since they havent affected my school gpa and on the transcript it clearly states that Withdrawals (regular W's are not factored in). However, on the transcript it lists total attempted hours, and therefore, doesnt LSAC count failure as credit attempted but not earned? So because my transcript says this, am I doomed? anyone else been in this situation? if so, how did LSAC treat your W's???


They treated my W's as nothing.

cherylann
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby cherylann » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:28 am

thanks so much for your help. but, on your transcript did they list the W's as attempted hours? thats the concern I am worried about, since attempted hours suggests failure to LSAC

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neeko
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby neeko » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:43 pm

cherylann wrote:thanks so much for your help. but, on your transcript did they list the W's as attempted hours? thats the concern I am worried about, since attempted hours suggests failure to LSAC



Yeah, they were there as attempted. The only thing that suggests failure to lsac is a failure, F or WF or any of that.

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howlery
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby howlery » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:27 pm

What if your school doesn't put W's on transcripts? I have something else instead from one class, will LSAC freak out and assume it was punitive?

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neeko
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Re: Withdrawals?

Postby neeko » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:22 pm

howlery wrote:What if your school doesn't put W's on transcripts? I have something else instead from one class, will LSAC freak out and assume it was punitive?


What is the something else? You might want to call them and ask.




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