UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

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UGmatters
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UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby UGmatters » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:58 pm

I have for a long time been amazed at how the vast majority of people on this site have convinced themselves that your UG doesn't matter on your application. All of these people are delusional.

But saying because school A is ranked T25 it will considered better than school B, which is ranked 100-150, is not accurate.

My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:

1) Difficulty of school -

Its funny that every single person who applies to law school receives numbers from LSAC that show how their numbers lineup to the average from their UG, but most fail to realize that adcomms care about this. Good luck at law school, guys.

If the average GPA at your school is a 3.3, and you get a 3.4, good for you. If the average GPA at your school is a 3.6, and you got a 3.5, not so much. This requires little more than common sense to understand.

2) Inflation

Adcomms are MORE than aware which schools inflate their grades. So, all of you people who say 'Unless you're coming from an Ivy you're out of luck', that is complete bollocks. For example, it is pretty much accepted as a fact that Columbia University's inflation is out of control. It is one of the most popular schools for Post-Bacs and 3-2 engineering transfer students maybe a little cause its got a good rep, maybe a little cause its in NY, and certainly a LOT because you're almost GUARANTEED to get a 3.6 or higher as long as you're admitted.

3) % of Students from your undergrad that complete PHDs, Masters.

TLSers (and anyone younger than 27, for that matter) hate this statistic. But Adcomms love it. Hrmm, I wonder why...
There is a reason this statistic exists, is tracked, and is so often cited: graduate schools care. If your UG has a record of an extremely low % of students COMPLETING (note completing vs. enrolling in) advanced degrees, your 3.5 is not going to look as good as someone who is coming with a 3.5 from a school which is known for this statistic.

And finally, the most overlooked one...

4) The relationship between your UG and the Law School

TLSers love to knock this down too, but it is true. Admissions officers know which students from which schools have the best track records at their institutions, and they care. If your UG school consistently sends stellar students who perform well in the school (and who give/bring lots of $$$ back), they're going to like you more than someone from a school that consistently sends students who underperform, regardless of numbers.


Now, this all isn't to say that some of the things people 'assume' aren't correct.

Where people are right:

1) coming from your Law school's UG

this rarely matters, and in fact can be a problem. Schools like to recruit from a variety of different schools and maintain geographic diversity. This is hard to do if you're favoring people in the dorm across the street.

2) Relativity between school type and major

Adcomms can't help concerning themselves with all of the things I mentioned above, but that doesn't mean they don't try and be fair sometimes. Although this may seem contrary to what has been stated above, in very specific cases adcomms will treat you on an equal plane despite the numbers advising otherwise. One of these specific cases would be if you are applying from a lower ranked specialty school with the same major and numbers as someone from a higher ranked one. What does this mean? 3 electrical engineering majors, one from MIT, one from Georgia Tech and one from Carnegie Mellon, all with 3.4s, willl likely all be considered on an equal plane. This is because there are only so many schools that offer such a specialty on such a high level, and while these schools may have reputations and numbers that rank the schools overall much differently, these specialties line up pretty well.


So, don't believe the hype. Anyone who says that anything besides HYP doesn't matter (or that HYP automatically matter) is a clown and has spent way too long on this site and way too much time trusting everyone else on it.

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bk1
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:02 pm

Ruh-roh, Raggy.

poo
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby poo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:04 pm

UGmatters wrote:I have for a long time been amazed at how the vast majority of people on this site have convinced themselves that your UG doesn't matter on your application. All of these people are delusional.

But saying because school A is ranked T25 it will considered better than school B, which is ranked 100-150, is not accurate.

My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:

1) Difficulty of school -

Its funny that every single person who applies to law school receives numbers from LSAC that show how their numbers lineup to the average from their UG, but most fail to realize that adcomms care about this. Good luck at law school, guys.

If the average GPA at your school is a 3.3, and you get a 3.4, good for you. If the average GPA at your school is a 3.6, and you got a 3.5, not so much. This requires little more than common sense to understand.

2) Inflation

Adcomms are MORE than aware which schools inflate their grades. So, all of you people who say 'Unless you're coming from an Ivy you're out of luck', that is complete bollocks. For example, it is pretty much accepted as a fact that Columbia University's inflation is out of control. It is one of the most popular schools for Post-Bacs and 3-2 engineering transfer students maybe a little cause its got a good rep, maybe a little cause its in NY, and certainly a LOT because you're almost GUARANTEED to get a 3.6 or higher as long as you're admitted.

3) % of Students from your undergrad that complete PHDs, Masters.

TLSers (and anyone younger than 27, for that matter) hate this statistic. But Adcomms love it. Hrmm, I wonder why...
There is a reason this statistic exists, is tracked, and is so often cited: graduate schools care. If your UG has a record of an extremely low % of students COMPLETING (note completing vs. enrolling in) advanced degrees, your 3.5 is not going to look as good as someone who is coming with a 3.5 from a school which is known for this statistic.

And finally, the most overlooked one...

4) The relationship between your UG and the Law School

TLSers love to knock this down too, but it is true. Admissions officers know which students from which schools have the best track records at their institutions, and they care. If your UG school consistently sends stellar students who perform well in the school (and who give/bring lots of $$$ back), they're going to like you more than someone from a school that consistently sends students who underperform, regardless of numbers.


Now, this all isn't to say that some of the things people 'assume' aren't correct.

Where people are right:

1) coming from your Law school's UG

this rarely matters, and in fact can be a problem. Schools like to recruit from a variety of different schools and maintain geographic diversity. This is hard to do if you're favoring people in the dorm across the street.

2) Relativity between school type and major

Adcomms can't help concerning themselves with all of the things I mentioned above, but that doesn't mean they don't try and be fair sometimes. Although this may seem contrary to what has been stated above, in very specific cases adcomms will treat you on an equal plane despite the numbers advising otherwise. One of these specific cases would be if you are applying from a lower ranked specialty school with the same major and numbers as someone from a higher ranked one. What does this mean? 3 electrical engineering majors, one from MIT, one from Georgia Tech and one from Carnegie Mellon, all with 3.4s, willl likely all be considered on an equal plane. This is because there are only so many schools that offer such a specialty on such a high level, and while these schools may have reputations and numbers that rank the schools overall much differently, these specialties line up pretty well.


So, don't believe the hype. Anyone who says that anything besides HYP doesn't matter (or that HYP automatically matter) is a clown and has spent way too long on this site and way too much time trusting everyone else on it.



All you need to realize is the following: If you did not go to HYPS, you went to a TTT for UG.

eldizknee
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby eldizknee » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:05 pm

.
Last edited by eldizknee on Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

poo
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby poo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:06 pm

eldizknee wrote:
poo wrote:All you need to realize is the following: If you did not go to HYPS, you went to a TTT for UG.


Egregious Stttanford trolling



yeah my bad stanford is a TTT.

03121202698008
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:06 pm

What if you went to a school which has had so few applicants that LSAC cannot compute an average for GPA/LSAT, etc. On my LSDAS it said not enough information was available. I still got in nearly everywhere my LSAT/GPA suggested I should.

Also, why this as your first post? Does it matter that much if people don't quantify what school they went to in deciding where to apply? There is no way they could ever estimate what an Adcomm may think so they'd still have to apply everywhere they may have a shot at. In short, this is just like any other soft factor, is not quantifiable, and hence there is no reason to pay attention to it.

slider
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby slider » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:15 pm

This sounds relatively accurate. I feel that my undergrad institution was an important factor in my admission to T14. There are many students from my undergrad institution in the law school I will be attending and the school tries to group a few alumni from my school, and select schools, in sections each year. It was pretty surprising to me. I did not attend HYPS.

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MrKappus
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:17 pm

poo wrote:All you need to realize is the following: If you did not go to HYPS, you went to a TTT for UG.


So, in your world, adcoms do not differentiate b/t Caltech and Keene State. Haha ok.

03121202698008
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:20 pm

MrKappus wrote:
poo wrote:All you need to realize is the following: If you did not go to HYPS, you went to a TTT for UG.


So, in your world, adcoms do not differentiate b/t Caltech and Keene State. Haha ok.


Like any other soft factor, it will be used to choose between otherwise like applicants. Your UG isn't getting you in somewhere your LSAT/GPA suggests you won't get into. Nor is it going to keep you from a top school (maybe HYS) if you have a 3.9/178.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby NU_Jet55 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:22 pm

UGmatters wrote:I have for a long time been amazed at how the vast majority of people on this site have convinced themselves that your UG doesn't matter on your application. All of these people are delusional. Blah, blah, blah.


This post says nothing that TLS CW doesn't already say.

If you get a Criminal Justice degree fromSouthwestern Technical College of Idaho (no idea if that's a real school), but have auto-admit numbers, good LOR's, a well written Personal Statement, and an impressive, interesting resume, you're just about a lock everywhere outside of HYS (and if you still have a shot there too).

If you have sub-25% numbers and the rest of your app is sub-par but you went to Harvard, you're going to have a hard time getting in.

There is nothing new here.

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romothesavior
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:25 pm

I am an average, white, middle-class male coming straight from a completely unknown undergrad with average softs. Guess how my cycle went?

Exactly as LSN/LSP said it would. And exactly as everyone on TLS predicted.

Bottom line: A great undergrad may help distinguish two similar candidates just like any other soft factor, but it is not going to keep a kid like me from getting in.

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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:27 pm

I feel like all of these posts hyping undergrads are from ivy kids who scored a 165 on the LSAT but want to believe they are going somewhere great sooo bad.

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Grizz
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:31 pm

T20 UG, average softs. LSP and LSN were right on. Maybe (and that's a big maybe) my softs or UG inspired Vanderbilt to throw me a few extra thousand, but that's it.

newrich
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby newrich » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:31 pm

blowhard wrote:I feel like all of these posts hyping undergrads are from ivy kids who scored a 165 on the LSAT but want to believe they are going somewhere great sooo bad.

LOL This kid probably went to a really expensive UG that is not worth it (NYU), did poorly grade wise, and on the LSAT...He thought he was set and is now screwed...lmaoo

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MrKappus
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:34 pm

blowhard wrote:I feel like all of these posts hyping undergrads are from ivy kids who scored a 165 on the LSAT but want to believe they are going somewhere great sooo bad.


Haha that might be. Just as all the posts about it not mattering are from kids that went to state schools, competed on state school curves, and now want their 3.6's to mean the same thing as a 3.6 from an Ivy. I doubt either side's 100% right.

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Unitas
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Unitas » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:35 pm

UGmatters wrote:My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:


No one else finds this bogus? Your sister working there should have no impact on you applying.

If your sister wants to share knowledge have her sign up for TLS with her name and school and let her tell us... We would really like that.

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romothesavior
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:37 pm

Also, many of us on TLS could have gone to much better undergrads but did the smart thing and took a huge scholarship somewhere else. I had good grades from a highly respected high school in my state and a really good ACT, and I would have had an okay shot at a lot of the "top" undergrad schools. But I took a full ride at a relatively unknown school, got an awesome education (I wouldn't trade it for anything), and did well in my classes.

A lot of those touting their great non-HYSP undergrads aren't that special. In many cases, they're just less debt averse.

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acadec
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby acadec » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:44 pm

Unitas wrote:
UGmatters wrote:My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:


No one else finds this bogus? Your sister working there should have no impact on you applying.

If your sister wants to share knowledge have her sign up for TLS with her name and school and let her tell us... We would really like that.

yeah, why aren't you allowed to apply there?

doubleluck
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby doubleluck » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:46 pm

acadec wrote:
Unitas wrote:
UGmatters wrote:My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:


No one else finds this bogus? Your sister working there should have no impact on you applying.

If your sister wants to share knowledge have her sign up for TLS with her name and school and let her tell us... We would really like that.

yeah, why aren't you allowed to apply there?

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acadec
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby acadec » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:49 pm

doubleluck wrote:
acadec wrote:
Unitas wrote:
UGmatters wrote:My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:


No one else finds this bogus? Your sister working there should have no impact on you applying.

If your sister wants to share knowledge have her sign up for TLS with her name and school and let her tell us... We would really like that.

yeah, why aren't you allowed to apply there?


I mean, i'm ALLOWED, just 'discouraged'. And not by the school, just from my sister. Call it a conflict of interests. Ever since she's been working there I've automatically just not considered it an option.

Oh, alright then. Just make sure log back in to the right alt account next time.

eldizknee
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby eldizknee » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:51 pm

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Last edited by eldizknee on Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby NU_Jet55 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:Also, many of us on TLS could have gone to much better undergrads but did the smart thing and took a huge scholarship somewhere else. I had good grades from a highly respected high school in my state and a really good ACT, and I would have had an okay shot at a lot of the "top" undergrad schools. But I took a full ride at a relatively unknown school, got an awesome education (I wouldn't trade it for anything), and did well in my classes.

A lot of those touting their great non-HYSP undergrads aren't that special. In many cases, they're just less debt averse.


+1 to all of the above. I did the same thing as Romo precisely because every lawyer I talked to told me UG didn't matter, then I visited half a dozen law T1 law schools (including a couple T14's) and they all said the exact same thing.

09042014
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:53 pm

romothesavior wrote:Also, many of us on TLS could have gone to much better undergrads but did the smart thing and took a huge scholarship somewhere else. I had good grades from a highly respected high school in my state and a really good ACT, and I would have had an okay shot at a lot of the "top" undergrad schools. But I took a full ride at a relatively unknown school, got an awesome education (I wouldn't trade it for anything), and did well in my classes.

A lot of those touting their great non-HYSP undergrads aren't that special. In many cases, they're just less debt averse.


I don't even care if a person could have gotten into a great school. Who cares if someone did shitty Sophomore year of high school (knocking them out of top colleges), if they rocked college and have a great LSAT?

What college you went to is a function of how good at high school you were from 14-17 (and lets face it, High School is retardedly easy), a standardized test, and how much money your parents had.

Now if someone wants to say that an A at a top school is harder to earn, then you gotta put the GPA of a Georgia Tech Engineer over a the Harvard Poli Sci major, because GT engineering would be harder to get an A in. But nobody wants to do that. They like to pretends Ivy >> ALL. That is overly simplistic.

If I were an adcom I'd really only consider difficulty of undergrad for reverse splitters. Because a 4.0/160 from CalTech, succeeded when tests say she shouldn't.
Last edited by 09042014 on Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:54 pm

NU_Jet55 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also, many of us on TLS could have gone to much better undergrads but did the smart thing and took a huge scholarship somewhere else. I had good grades from a highly respected high school in my state and a really good ACT, and I would have had an okay shot at a lot of the "top" undergrad schools. But I took a full ride at a relatively unknown school, got an awesome education (I wouldn't trade it for anything), and did well in my classes.

A lot of those touting their great non-HYSP undergrads aren't that special. In many cases, they're just less debt averse.


+1 to all of the above. I did the same thing as Romo precisely because every lawyer I talked to told me UG didn't matter, then I visited half a dozen law T1 law schools (including a couple T14's) and they all said the exact same thing.


It may not matter for LS admissions, but it's certainly nice to have on the ol' resume (and for networking). Whatev's.

UGmatters
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby UGmatters » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:56 pm

acadec wrote:Oh, alright then. Just make sure log back in to the right alt account next time.


Advice taken. :)




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