Cornell 1/4-ride v GSU full-ride v CU-Boulder full-ride? Forum

[legalized]

When would the Cornell 1/4-ride make sense to take INSTEAD OF the full rides in Atlanta and Denver metros? (I know where Boulder is, I'm grouping by closest metro served).

Assume the person is open to type of law practice, type of firm practiced with (everything from biglaw to solo), and location practiced.

[the lantern]

It is a personal preference type thing here. If it were me, the choice would be between Cornell and CU. Georgia State has Emory and Georgia to compete with. So it is really about how much debt you want to take on. If you think you will do well and are willing to risk the debt to attend Cornell, do it. If it were me, I"d really think long and hard about turning down a full ride though (especially since GSU and CU are both good schools). No debt gives you a lot of options, but the opportunities at Cornell will be amazing if you finish in the top portion of the class.


full disclosure: I am attending CU this fall.

[Grizz]

GSU - behind UVA/Duke, Vandy, Emory, UGA for the ATL market. I'd take Cornell, which I guess would place around where Vandy does, but it's tough to say because there's not many Cornell people around..

CU - only if I knew I never wanted to leave Colorado... ever. Even then it would be a stretch.

[rundoxierun]

FYI Denver is a tiny legal market and CU-Boulder isnt as dominant there as you would think.. I dont know anything about GSU specifically but you will be competing with a lot more than just Emory and UGA for Atlanta.

[legalized]

Damn.

Didn't realize there was so much competition for Atlanta. Yikes.

Vanderbilt AND UVa?

Looks like I'd have a better shot in the Atlanta market angling to get into UVa then huh. Or Emory. But Emory probly won't care about having me as much as UVa. UVa.'s location so...smh. I'll do more research and see if there is something I'll like about it.

****************************
CU Boulder is behind who for the Denver market?

[legalized]

GSU - behind UVA/Duke, Vandy, Emory, UGA for the ATL market. I'd take Cornell, which I guess would place around where Vandy does, but it's tough to say because there's not many Cornell people around..

CU - only if I knew I never wanted to leave Colorado... ever. Even then it would be a stretch.

And Mercer.

And potentially John Marshall-Atlanta which is now accredited.

I didn't realize I'd be up against UVa Duke AND Vanderbilt.

It's time I research where these law schools mostly feed into. I thought T-14 fed everywhere (with more nationality the further up in ranks), and everyone else fed locally.

Mercer I read feeds to Macon as well. Not sure what kind of hiring the firms there do. Nor what kind of paying.

Is there a market somewhere that is not popular with new grads and doesn't have a significant ratio of KKK types in it? I want to aim for somewhere people are NOT flooding the market.

How far outside the urban areas of NYC, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, LA does one have to go to cut down significantly on the amount of new grads rushing the jobs?

I saw a list somewhere in one of these arguments of states that actually need lawyers or are not saturated...places like Iowa and the Dakotas that nobody wants to live in.

Is there anywhere in states with popular urban metros that is OUTSIDE that metro and needs lawyers but keeps losing them to the metro?

[Grizz]

Damn.

Didn't realize there was so much competition for Atlanta. Yikes.

A lot of UVA and Duke grads want elsewhere, so competition from them isn't as stiff. After TN, Vanderbilt has its second largest number of alums in GA, most of which I'd bet are in ATL. The chairmen of King & Spalding and Alston & Bird are Vandy grads. However, not as many chose to work in ATL this past year. A lot opted for NY. Emory is strong, and UGA has a lot of alums, but the latest NLJ250 data shows only 15% of UGA grads in NLJ250 firms, probably less ITE, so that doesn't look good for ATL big law. GSU is after all these, and competes with Mercer, so with some good money from one of the above, I'd go there for sure over GSU for free.

I wouldn't worry about John Marshall. GSU at least has a decent amount of alums, whereas John Marshall is barely accredited.

[legalized]

It is a personal preference type thing here. If it were me, the choice would be between Cornell and CU. Georgia State has Emory and Georgia to compete with. So it is really about how much debt you want to take on. If you think you will do well and are willing to risk the debt to attend Cornell, do it. If it were me, I"d really think long and hard about turning down a full ride though (especially since GSU and CU are both good schools). No debt gives you a lot of options, but the opportunities at Cornell will be amazing if you finish in the top portion of the class.


full disclosure: I am attending CU this fall.

Out of curiosity to hear someone else's thought process, why did you choose CU?

Rad law: where ARE the Cornell students? What's happening to them, where have they been going in this economy?

[Grizz]

Rad law: where ARE the Cornell students? What's happening to them, where have they been going in this economy?

Not sure, other than that a lot of Cornell kids wanted New York big law and didn't get it ITE. I know a lot more about ATL and FL markets, where Cornell isn't very represented.

[legalized]

Damn.

Didn't realize there was so much competition for Atlanta. Yikes.

A lot of UVA and Duke grads want elsewhere, so competition from them isn't as stiff. After TN, Vanderbilt has its second largest number of alums in GA, most of which I'd bet are in ATL. The chairmen of King & Spalding and Alston & Bird are Vandy grads. However, not as many chose to work in ATL this past year. A lot opted for NY. Emory is strong, and UGA has a lot of alums, but the latest NLJ250 data shows only 15% of UGA grads in NLJ250 firms, probably less ITE, so that doesn't look good for ATL big law. GSU is after all these, and competes with Mercer, so with some good money from one of the above, I'd go there for sure over GSU for free.

I wouldn't worry about John Marshall. GSU at least has a decent amount of alums, whereas John Marshall is barely accredited.

Thanks.

So ATL biglaw is hiring from mostly what schools then? If only 15% of UGA grads are in biglaw and people seem to feel UGA is nearly better than Emory in the local market...what is the rest of UGA doing? Where are the Emory grads going?

[rundoxierun]

Damn.

Didn't realize there was so much competition for Atlanta. Yikes.

Vanderbilt AND UVa?

Looks like I'd have a better shot in the Atlanta market angling to get into UVa then huh. Or Emory. But Emory probly won't care about having me as much as UVa. UVa.'s location so...smh. I'll do more research and see if there is something I'll like about it.

****************************
CU Boulder is behind who for the Denver market?

Umm.. if you dont have the numbers for Emory you probably arent getting into UVA. Im assuming you think Emory doesnt want URMs as badly as UVA and will therefore require you to have higher numbers. NOT the case. The number of URMs qualified is so limited that it doesnt shake out like that.

CU-Boulder isnt necessarily behind any other school for the Denver market but they do compete with U of Denver plus Denver is a fairly popular destination so people will be applying from around the country.

EDIT: NLJ 250 paints a starker picture for the south than whats really going on. These numbers dont really show the full picture since all the decent firms in the south arent necessarily NLJ 250.

[legalized]

Rad law: where ARE the Cornell students? What's happening to them, where have they been going in this economy?

Not sure, other than that a lot of Cornell kids wanted New York big law and didn't get it ITE. I know a lot more about ATL and FL markets, where Cornell isn't very represented.

If Cornell kid wanted Atlanta could they get it?

New York seems to me an extremely oversaturated market. Just without even researching I can tell that every school north of the Carolinas feeds (or tries to feed) into there. I don't think I would even look at NYC biglaw if I wasn't at a T5. Not at this economic time anyway.

So GSU even with a full ride doesn't make sense.

CU with a full ride makes sense if sticking to colorado is fine...and with the denver firms having trouble with their minority recruitment/retention into biglaw. (that's from another thread)

Cornell makes sense if not going to NYC to compete.

Or that seems to be the preliminary look of things?

[Grizz]

Thanks.

So ATL biglaw is hiring from mostly what schools then? If only 15% of UGA grads are in biglaw and people seem to feel UGA is nearly better than Emory in the local market...what is the rest of UGA doing? Where are the Emory grads going?

ATL biglaw? Mainly the schools I mentioned previously.

Emory has decent regional and somewhat national placement (mainly along the eastern seaboard). So a lot of Emory grads go elsewhere, too.

The rest of UGA? Small firms, local govt., non-NLJ250 firms, etc. It is not better than Emory in the local market, at least not according to the people I've talked to (mainly people who went to Emory and Vandy, admittedly).

EDIT: NLJ 250 paints a starker picture for the south than whats really going on. These numbers dont really show the full picture since all the decent firms in the south arent necessarily NLJ 250.

Yes, but NLJ is still a useful metric to look at, considering the tiers I outlined above will almost certainly apply to non-NLJ250 firms as well.

[legalized]

Damn.

Didn't realize there was so much competition for Atlanta. Yikes.

Vanderbilt AND UVa?

Looks like I'd have a better shot in the Atlanta market angling to get into UVa then huh. Or Emory. But Emory probly won't care about having me as much as UVa. UVa.'s location so...smh. I'll do more research and see if there is something I'll like about it.

****************************
CU Boulder is behind who for the Denver market?

Umm.. if you dont have the numbers for Emory you probably arent getting into UVA. Im assuming you think Emory doesnt want URMs as badly as UVA and will therefore require you to have higher numbers. NOT the case. The number of URMs qualified is so limited that it doesnt shake out like that.

CU-Boulder isnt necessarily behind any other school for the Denver market but they do compete with U of Denver plus Denver is a fairly popular destination so people will be applying from around the country.

EDIT: NLJ 250 paints a starker picture for the south than whats really going on. These numbers dont really show the full picture since all the decent firms in the south arent necessarily NLJ 250.

Honestly was assuming with the exact same numbers to get into one or the other, Emory will by default have a lot more URM applicants applying due to its location, versus UVa that is in the bush for all practical purposes. Not that I could be lazier with the score, just have better chances of a "yes" with $$ from UVa. Emory might not NEED me as much. Even if it wants me.

Denver is popular to who? It doesn't have much URM population to begin with outside of Hispanics. Most URMs as far as I can tell stick to the coastline of the country as much as possible (or at least states that touch the coastline or the Great Lakes).

[rundoxierun]

Rad law: where ARE the Cornell students? What's happening to them, where have they been going in this economy?

Not sure, other than that a lot of Cornell kids wanted New York big law and didn't get it ITE. I know a lot more about ATL and FL markets, where Cornell isn't very represented.

If Cornell kid wanted Atlanta could they get it?

New York seems to me an extremely oversaturated market. Just without even researching I can tell that every school north of the Carolinas feeds (or tries to feed) into there. I don't think I would even look at NYC biglaw if I wasn't at a T5. Not at this economic time anyway.

So GSU even with a full ride doesn't make sense.

CU with a full ride makes sense if sticking to colorado is fine...and with the denver firms having trouble with their minority recruitment/retention into biglaw. (that's from another thread)

Cornell makes sense if not going to NYC to compete.

Or that seems to be the preliminary look of things?

Cornell makes just as much sense as CU even if you are going to compete in NYC. NYC is the largest legal market in the world. Compared to your other choices Cornell is doing perfectly fine in this economic time. And dont consider minority recruitment in a specific city when making a decision between these schools. U might as well be considering the chances of you Becoming a Supreme Court Justice from these schools. Im in Boulder/Denver fairly often (gf's family lives there) and yes there are no blacks, few asians, but quite a few hispanics. With that said, what you are talking about is considering something that is a needle in a haystack to be a significant part of a decision.

[Grizz]

If Cornell kid wanted Atlanta could they get it?

He or she would probably have to demonstrate a connection to the area, but yes. Probably easier for a Vandy kid though, considering Vandy's alumni and reputation.

So GSU even with a full ride doesn't make sense.

It makes sense if you didn't get in anywhere better, because even if you don't get a high paying job, your debt level is lower.

Cornell makes sense if not going to NYC to compete.

This is just a weird statement. Cornell will still get you NY jobs, just not as many as previously. The same can be said for a lot of schools though.

If you want a certain region, you have to consider the other schools in the region. For example, for working in the South, Cornell scores can probably get you into Vandy, which would be a better choice for the region, considering Vandy's reputation and numerous alumni here.

[rundoxierun]

Damn.

Didn't realize there was so much competition for Atlanta. Yikes.

Vanderbilt AND UVa?

Looks like I'd have a better shot in the Atlanta market angling to get into UVa then huh. Or Emory. But Emory probly won't care about having me as much as UVa. UVa.'s location so...smh. I'll do more research and see if there is something I'll like about it.

****************************
CU Boulder is behind who for the Denver market?

Umm.. if you dont have the numbers for Emory you probably arent getting into UVA. Im assuming you think Emory doesnt want URMs as badly as UVA and will therefore require you to have higher numbers. NOT the case. The number of URMs qualified is so limited that it doesnt shake out like that.

CU-Boulder isnt necessarily behind any other school for the Denver market but they do compete with U of Denver plus Denver is a fairly popular destination so people will be applying from around the country.

EDIT: NLJ 250 paints a starker picture for the south than whats really going on. These numbers dont really show the full picture since all the decent firms in the south arent necessarily NLJ 250.

Honestly was assuming with the exact same numbers to get into one or the other, Emory will by default have a lot more URM applicants applying due to its location, versus UVa that is in the bush for all practical purposes. Not that I could be lazier with the score, just have better chances of a "yes" with $$ from UVa. Emory might not NEED me as much. Even if it wants me.

Denver is popular to who? It doesn't have much URM population to begin with outside of Hispanics. Most URMs as far as I can tell stick to the coastline of the country as much as possible (or at least states that touch the coastline or the Great Lakes).

Umm yea Emory may have more URM applicants but it def wont have the same quality of URM applicants. The URMs with the numbers for T25 schools know that UVA is a significantly more prestigious school and therefore the top URM applicants apply there. Not as many of the top will be applying to Emory simply because it is in Atlanta. In fact, a lot of top URMs hate Atlanta. Dont apply the thinking of the general population to the top group.

[Kretzy]

I'm sort of a troll for CU-B, so bear that in mind.

If you're fine working in the mountain west, CU is a no-brainer here. Quality of life in the Denver-Boulder metro area is excellent, and Denver is a very insular market. It's quite tough to get a job here apart from attending CU/DU or having grown up/done undergrad here. Coloradans like other westerners, particularly for hiring. If you have no money saved up, CU would put you about $55,000 in debt (not counting any money you'd make from summer employment).

CU also does outperform DU quite noticeably (in part due to CU being 1/3 the size); I know the 2L currently ranked #2 at DU, and they don't have a firm job for this summer. 1Ls at CU are getting firm jobs in Denver for the summer (though not a ton). I'm not saying these are prescriptive, hell, they're anecdotes, but they tell a story that's fairly standard throughout the classes at both schools.

CU also owns high-end government positions in CO, if that's an interest of yours, particularly in the Governor's and AG offices (controlled by different parties, but both CU grads) and CO legislature (where the Speaker of the House is a DU grad but the Senate Pres is a CU law grad).

[de5igual]

i'm curious,

OP, have you taken the lsat?

what's the point of throwing around these hypotheticals (esp in such great detail, e.g., 1/4 ride to Cornell)

if you're able to get 1/4 ride from cornell, you shouldn't even be looking at gsu, quite honestly. but all discussion here is moot until you take the lsat and actually start applying to (and hear back from) schools

[gwuorbust]

wait, are we really debating between Cornell, a t-14, and t-30s and lower ?!?!

thnx


and edit to say that you kinda need to gtfo until you have actually taken the LSAT. harsh, I know, but true.

[Kretzy]

wait, are we really debating between Cornell, a t-14, and t-30s and lower ?!?!

thnx

and edit to say that you kinda need to gtfo until you have actually taken the LSAT. harsh, I know, but true.

There are myriad reasons to take a T40, with a full-tuition scholarship (particularly if it's in an area where you'd like to practice) over a T14 at three times the debt. To think otherwise is both naive and prestige-whorish. Cornell, in fact, does quite poorly placing in Denver, even for folks who grew up here/spent undergrad in Colorado, a fact I'm sure you know, given your probable copious research on the subject /endranting.

Knowing I want to practice in Denver, I would take a full-ride at CU over any school other than a T10 + Texas. I'm not saying OP wants to practice in Denver, just that you're general dismissiveness of the idea marks you (whether true or not) as someone who has seemingly bought too far into the idea that rankings are a trump-card.

[yeff]

1. OP, this whole thing is totally hypothetical?



Go take the LSAT, then repost about where to apply. Get your acceptances and/or scholarships, then repost about which to choose. Right now you should post in the LSAT forum about how to get the best score you can, IMO.

I don't think I would even look at NYC biglaw if I wasn't at a T5. Not at this economic time anyway.

Good point. If you were only at a T6 like New York UniversiTTTy, it's problem not even worth looking at NYC biglaw.

[gwuorbust]

wait, are we really debating between Cornell, a t-14, and t-30s and lower ?!?!

thnx

and edit to say that you kinda need to gtfo until you have actually taken the LSAT. harsh, I know, but true.

There are myriad reasons to take a T40, with a full-tuition scholarship (particularly if it's in an area where you'd like to practice) over a T14 at three times the debt. To think otherwise is both naive and prestige-whorish. Cornell, in fact, does quite poorly placing in Denver, even for folks who grew up here/spent undergrad in Colorado, a fact I'm sure you know, given your probable copious research on the subject /endranting.

Knowing I want to practice in Denver, I would take a full-ride at CU over any school other than a T10 + Texas. I'm not saying OP wants to practice in Denver, just that you're general dismissiveness of the idea marks you (whether true or not) as someone who has seemingly bought too far into the idea that rankings are a trump-card.

believe me I know the arguments backwards and forwards..have wasted enf time on here for that I just think there is something to be said in terms of ivy LS and long-terms prospects. Obv it is hard to put a value on, but when was the last time that a CU grad was nominated to the supreme court? Not being dismissive of CU, just saying that there is a correlation and prob a degree of causation caused by a combination of the 'prestige effect' and the alumni.

hell I am prob not going to go to a t-20 but I just think that if you want to 'shoot for the stars' t-14 + Vandy, UT, UCLA is the way to go. Of course there is a very good place for other schools and if those are the best for your plan then go for it.

[Kretzy]

wait, are we really debating between Cornell, a t-14, and t-30s and lower ?!?!

thnx

and edit to say that you kinda need to gtfo until you have actually taken the LSAT. harsh, I know, but true.

There are myriad reasons to take a T40, with a full-tuition scholarship (particularly if it's in an area where you'd like to practice) over a T14 at three times the debt. To think otherwise is both naive and prestige-whorish. Cornell, in fact, does quite poorly placing in Denver, even for folks who grew up here/spent undergrad in Colorado, a fact I'm sure you know, given your probable copious research on the subject /endranting.

Knowing I want to practice in Denver, I would take a full-ride at CU over any school other than a T10 + Texas. I'm not saying OP wants to practice in Denver, just that you're general dismissiveness of the idea marks you (whether true or not) as someone who has seemingly bought too far into the idea that rankings are a trump-card.

believe me I know the arguments backwards and forwards..have wasted enf time on here for that I just think there is something to be said in terms of ivy LS and long-terms prospects. Obv it is hard to put a value on, but when was the last time that a CU grad was nominated to the supreme court? Not being dismissive of CU, just saying that there is a correlation and prob a degree of causation caused by a combination of the 'prestige effect' and the alumni.

hell I am prob not going to go to a t-20 but I just think that if you want to 'shoot for the stars' t-14 + Vandy, UT, UCLA is the way to go. Of course there is a very good place for other schools and if those are the best for your plan then go for it.

ROFL. Byron White was on the Court for two decades, man, until Clinton's first term.

I'm just saying, the idea that prestige is earned just via things like SCOTUS is laughable. How many Cornell grads can you name doing "super prestigious stuff" without looking at Wikipedia? C'mon...

Cornell is an incredible school. There are a number of reasons to take a regional school, such as CU (or UNC, or Washington) over the T14. Your complaints as to those reasons are coming off as incredibly superficial.

[yeff]

I would say you pwned him, except that Justice White went to Yale.

Still, comparing schools like CU and CU on SCOTUS is really dumb. Hell, comparing Yale and Harvard on SCOTUS would be dumb.