MBA vs JD

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pierce_and_pierce
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MBA vs JD

Postby pierce_and_pierce » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:27 pm

Which do you think is better? Holders of both degrees are complaining about not having enough opportunities, but which one do you all think will lead to more opportunities going forward?

oneforship
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby oneforship » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:30 pm

If you can't get into one of the top business schools, it is an even worse investment than law school.

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kittenmittons
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby kittenmittons » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:30 pm

I'd rather have a Harvard MBA than a Harvard JD

njskatchmo
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby njskatchmo » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:53 am

kittenmittons wrote:I'd rather have a Harvard MBA than a Harvard JD


Gotta compare the top of each,

Harvard MBA or Yale JD

I'd take yale.

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englawyer
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby englawyer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:56 am

here is my personal MBA vs JD ranking (i am interested in both as well, and basically just want to maximize opportunities):

#1 YLS
#1 HBS
#1 GSB (Stanford Business)
#4 HLS
#4 Wharton
#4 SLS
#7 Columbia LS
#7 NYU LS
#7 Chicago LS
#10 MIT Sloan
#10 Kellogg MBA
#10 Booth MBA
#13 Columbia MBA
#14-#21 Law Schools ranked 7-14
#22 NYU Stern
#22 Tuck MBA
#22 Ross MBA
#22 Duke MBA
#26-61 Law Schools ranked 15-50
Last edited by englawyer on Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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englawyer
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby englawyer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:58 am

you may also want to read this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=97340

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kittenmittons
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby kittenmittons » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:59 am

njskatchmo wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:I'd rather have a Harvard MBA than a Harvard JD


Gotta compare the top of each,

Harvard MBA or Yale JD

I'd take yale.


To be fair, I did

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reasonabledoubt
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby reasonabledoubt » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:16 pm

An MBA, even moreso than a JD, relies more on the candidates actual abilities and acumen for it to be worth much of anything. Soft skills are king w/an MBA.

Examples of soft skills:
Participate in a team
Lead a team
Unite a team amidst cultural differences
Teach others
Provide services
Negotiate
Motivate others
Make decisions
Solve problems
Observe forms of etiquette
Interact with others
Maintain meaningless conversation (small talk)
Maintain meaningful conversation (discussion/debate)
Defuse arguments with timing, instructions and polite, concise language
Feign interest and speak intelligently about any topic
Listening
Coaching

You can show a prospective employer your Harvard MBA but it will quickly be interpreted as useless and unconvincing if you haven't taken the time to become polished, in a business acumen sense. Best friend = Northwestern MBA and he absolutely agrees with this.

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englawyer
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby englawyer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:22 pm

i agree about soft skills with the MBA, but the real difference is job opportunities.

all of the sudden you can apply to jobs that won't just throw your resume out at places like Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, etc. you also have access to a great alumni network.

if you don't have the soft skills, of course you will be dead in the water during the job interview and subsequent position. but the difference is now you can at least get the job interview.

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capitalacq
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby capitalacq » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:47 pm

HBS>YLS

and HLS>YLS for non-lawyer jobs

Black-Blue
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby Black-Blue » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:11 pm

I think a top 3 MBA (Harvard, Stanford, Penn) is better than a top 3 JD. A top 7 MBA (+MIT, NU, Columbia, Chicago) is also better than a top 10 JD. In general, elite MBAs tend to be happier in the long run than elite JDs. I think this is because elite MBAs have very good work experience and tend to be better suited for the private sector world. In comparison, elite JDs just did well on the LSAT. But it's hard to make this comparison because they have different selection criteria. Personally, I think the MBA is a little more selective because it takes more than one test.

As you go down the chain, JD overtakes MBA.

But if you go down so low, then when both degrees are nearly useless, it's MBA > JD again because TTT MBAs are so cheap and only take 2 years to complete.

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reasonabledoubt
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby reasonabledoubt » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:27 pm

Black-Blue wrote:I think a top 3 MBA (Harvard, Stanford, Penn) is better than a top 3 JD. A top 7 MBA (+MIT, NU, Columbia, Chicago) is also better than a top 10 JD. In general, elite MBAs tend to be happier in the long run than elite JDs. I think this is because elite MBAs have very good work experience and tend to be better suited for the private sector world. In comparison, elite JDs just did well on the LSAT. But it's hard to make this comparison because they have different selection criteria. Personally, I think the MBA is a little more selective because it takes more than one test.

As you go down the chain, JD overtakes MBA.

But if you go down so low, then when both degrees are nearly useless, it's MBA > JD again because TTT MBAs are so cheap and only take 2 years to complete.


This is unconvincing, subjectively derived, and relies on generalization too much. I know several top MBA grads that work "for the man" doing uninspired brand development/management type-work for huge companies. The pay? Decent... over 100, but I wouldn't say they're absolutely tickled. Anyways, my anecdotes are generalizing as well, but what I mean to point out is i'm not sure I buy that elite MBA's tend to be happier in the long run.

Ironically enough... Harvard Business Review (last year, forgot which month) drilled into the fading value of an MBA (including their own) and what schools will have to drastically change if an MBA is going to even be considered relevant in our ever-globalized world. Paradigms in business simply change too fast for the theories one learns during an MBA to be relevant even a year after one graduates. This would suggest the type of individual that is disciplined, learns fast, studies hard (high LSAT scorer?) is better suited for the future of business than an "elite MBA" who just learned a set of outdated theories.

If it's archived, I'd check out the Harvard Business Review (last year/yellow cover) about business schools/mba's.

There's a reason I'm going for the JD instead... in any business, understanding our system of law (especially in the future, IMO) is going to be absolutely paramount. So I disagree with most of what you just said. JD all the way. MBA value = obsolete in a flash.

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englawyer
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby englawyer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:33 pm

I love this debate. keep it going please!

i think that while HBS > YLS in terms of dollar outcomes, I suspect YLS opportunities might be more satisfying. I would rather be a SCOTUS clerk than crank out some $$ in a greenwich hedge fund personally.

i could see either perspective though, which is why i tied HBS/GSB/YLS for #1.

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reasonabledoubt
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby reasonabledoubt » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:45 pm

englawyer wrote:I love this debate. keep it going please!

i think that while HBS > YLS in terms of dollar outcomes, I suspect YLS opportunities might be more satisfying. I would rather be a SCOTUS clerk than crank out some $$ in a greenwich hedge fund personally.

i could see either perspective though, which is why i tied HBS/GSB/YLS for #1.


A lot has changed in Hedge Funds post collapse and I'd say a high functioning legal-type thinker would be better than an MBA at cranking out some $$$ in things like HF's, trading, etc. Also, Post madoff-era, I think a JD is going to serve everyone well who intends to land in securities/investments/trading/etc.

Black-Blue
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby Black-Blue » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:52 pm

Well if it's dollar value in the short run, then surely YLS > HBS.

A lot of students at elite JDs were straight out of UG, so they go from making $0 to making 100k+. In comparison, a lot elite MBA students already were making 100k, and yet chose to spend another 250k on business school. In fact, HBS had a ROI break even of 7 years, according to one study, since their students were already making so much money before business school.

However, in the long run, I definitely think that a business path is much more flexible, and MBAs have a wider range of long run options.

But of course, it's hard to compare people who've been in the work force for 4 years with people with no work experience so it's ultimately a flawed comparison.

pierce_and_pierce
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby pierce_and_pierce » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:36 pm

Are you applying for a JD/MBA? Do you know what the typical path is for applying for those (i.e. how many years of work experience, when to take the GMAT/LSAT/etc)? Also, people only talk about Harvard/Yale/Stanford JD/MBAs, but what about other programs that still have solid business/law schools but not the absolute best, like Michigan, UVA, Berkeley, Cornell, etc.?

englawyer wrote:here is my personal MBA vs JD ranking (i am interested in both as well, and basically just want to maximize opportunities):

#1 YLS
#1 HBS
#1 GSB (Stanford Business)
#4 HLS
#4 Wharton
#4 SLS
#7 Columbia LS
#7 NYU LS
#7 Chicago LS
#10 MIT Sloan
#10 Kellogg MBA
#10 Booth MBA
#13 Columbia MBA
#14-#21 Law Schools ranked 7-14
#22 NYU Stern
#22 Tuck MBA
#22 Ross MBA
#22 Duke MBA
#26-61 Law Schools ranked 15-50

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englawyer
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby englawyer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:06 pm

i am a "JD/MBA" applicant, but in practice, that just means I have applied to a number of JD programs AND a number of MBA programs. If I manage to get a combo admit, that is great. I would also consider going to a law school and applying MBA the first year. I still don't know what I am going to do, and won't know til April to be honest.

it is a rare degree, so there is no typical path. i would say that if I had to define a typical path, it would be to work 2-3 years straight out of undergrad, and then apply for the combo. the best time to take the GMAT and LSAT would probably be either during undergrad or during those 2-3 years. For LOR, I used one academic and two professional for both law and business schools. There are also extensive MBA essays to write for each school, which is a pain. MBA applications are much more involved than law school applications.

the actual mechanics of the application varies from school to school. I favor the ones where they are completely independent, because for one i would not want to soil my chances at one program because i messed up the other and also I would like to keep my options open (either the JD, the MBA, or both). For example, NYU has a joint "jd/mba" application. I instead applied to only the MBA and only the JD, and I figure that if I really want to go there and do the combo, I can (it is probably harder to be admitted to each). Other schools with a formal joint application include Northwestern, Yale, and Penn I believe.

the "lesser" MBA programs would be a good addition if you think you want to go corporate law and transition into business down the line. i think you will have a diminished chance at jumping into business right away though. my thinking here is that the only employers that like hiring JDs right away into business are banking/consulting, and they don't recruit heavily at the schools you mentioned (Michigan MBA, Haas MBA, etc). For example, Haas's bread and butter seems to be general management placement into Silicon Valley tech companies, who might steer clear of a JD applicant.

Snooker
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby Snooker » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:14 pm

In comparing MBAs with JDs, you should also remember that a tremendous amount of experience and real business skills are required to get into Harvard Business School. On the other hand, a fresh college graduate with a really high GPA and a good LSAT score - a test that measures nothing more than your ability to take law exams under time pressures*. A HLS graduate can get employed at any big firm, regardless of previous experience, based on their ability to take law exams which have no relationship to your professional competence. Business employers, on the other hand look, again, for real skills and experience as augmented by your MBA. An administrative assistant with a 4.0/178 could get into HLS but stand no chance at an MBA; a super-star consultant or i-banker could score a 155 on the LSAT and have zero chances at a good business school.

What does this mean for you? In general, if you have no business background but a great LSAT, go to law school. If you have a great business background, why waste it by getting a JD when you can get a top MBA?






* i.e. if there are no time pressures, the LSAT correlation vanishes for law exams.

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englawyer
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby englawyer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:27 pm

Snooker wrote:What does this mean for you? In general, if you have no business background but a great LSAT, go to law school. If you have a great business background, why waste it by getting a JD when you can get a top MBA?


well i could see a number of reasons.

#1. top MBA is all fluff. you don't really develop your intellect, or really gain any meaningful skills. With law school you sharpen your analytical sense so there is more personal development.

#2. top MBA jobs are accessible from top JD programs (at least to some degree). Some would rather take a shot at McKinsey from HLS, and perhaps view biglaw as a backup instead of taking a shot at McKinsey from an MBA program and having "general management" as a backup. The type of people interested in these degrees are shooting for high-prestige service sector jobs: biglaw, banking, and consulting. Law school has a better chance at getting one of those jobs.

#3. respect in society. a law grad is generally more respected than a MBA grad. Many smart people actually despise MBA grads, and point to George Bush as the typical product of those degrees.

of course there are a number of reasons to favor the MBA over the JD as well. it is a difficult trade-off.

Clever_User_Name
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby Clever_User_Name » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:04 pm

Snooker wrote:In comparing MBAs with JDs, you should also remember that a tremendous amount of experience and real business skills are required to get into Harvard Business School. On the other hand, a fresh college graduate with a really high GPA and a good LSAT score - a test that measures nothing more than your ability to take law exams under time pressures*. A HLS graduate can get employed at any big firm, regardless of previous experience, based on their ability to take law exams which have no relationship to your professional competence. Business employers, on the other hand look, again, for real skills and experience as augmented by your MBA. An administrative assistant with a 4.0/178 could get into HLS but stand no chance at an MBA; a super-star consultant or i-banker could score a 155 on the LSAT and have zero chances at a good business school.

What does this mean for you? In general, if you have no business background but a great LSAT, go to law school. If you have a great business background, why waste it by getting a JD when you can get a top MBA?



* i.e. if there are no time pressures, the LSAT correlation vanishes for law exams.


THIS.

Individuals who gain admission to the top MBA programs have already demonstrated that they can succeed in real life situations. While people who get into top JD programs have obviously demonstrated that they are capable individuals, they have, for the most part, not had years of successful work experience.

Another point is that, in some ways, they are similar. Big banking has, what I would assume to be, a similar burn out rate. Top bankers, and especially new bankers, get pushed hard and often don't last long.

IMO, it really depends on what you want to do. As far as the $ goes, I would guess that there is more money for a top MBA graduate who goes into banking. But for me that would suck, because I have no desire to do that.

At the lower level, I would guess that both are a relative waste of time.

09042014
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:29 pm

What is the MBA hiring market like?

I suspect I-banking hiring has been bad? What about consulting?

I'm socially awkward so I think I'd only do an MBA to get a quant job, but I'd have to wait a couple years to get work experience, and I hear MBA programs are always skeptical of engineers applying.

Either way I think I'd rather be a patent attorney than a quant.

Clever_User_Name
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby Clever_User_Name » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:What is the MBA hiring market like?

I suspect I-banking hiring has been bad? What about consulting?

I'm socially awkward so I think I'd only do an MBA to get a quant job, but I'd have to wait a couple years to get work experience, and I hear MBA programs are always skeptical of engineers applying.

Either way I think I'd rather be a patent attorney than a quant.


I assume the market is horrid at the moment. There are a lot of experienced bankers on the street, so competition should be stiff.

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kittenmittons
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby kittenmittons » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:37 pm

DDS or DMD is TCR

bahama
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby bahama » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:20 pm

Desert Fox wrote:What is the MBA hiring market like?

I suspect I-banking hiring has been bad? What about consulting?

I'm socially awkward so I think I'd only do an MBA to get a quant job, but I'd have to wait a couple years to get work experience, and I hear MBA programs are always skeptical of engineers applying.

Either way I think I'd rather be a patent attorney than a quant.


I would bet it is easier on average to get BigLaw out of a top 3 law school than a top IBank/PE/VC/Consulting job out of a top 3 business school.

Anecdotally what a friend with a recent top MBA told me is that finance (IB,PE etc) hiring is very bad and that it is almost impossible to get hired without significant pre-MBA finance work experience. As a result, a lot of wannabe bankers are adding to the number of people going after the scarce consulting jobs. The consulting market sounds like it is doing only slightly better than BigLaw (unsuprising considering all the similarities) with unusually high retention and over hiring in the boom combined with less business to produce tight hiring conditions and deferrals of start dates.

rmend
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Re: MBA vs JD

Postby rmend » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:28 pm

Does anyone know of a site like this for mba applicants who can answer questions? I asked a few admissions officers at my undergrad, (has a top mba program), which job would be better between a small business and a finance job, and they all gave answers saying "we have no preference...etc". Do they really not have a preference or if you don't know can you refer me to a site where people would know?




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