Official Foreign Applicants Thread 2010-2011 Forum

[thesybarite]

In other news, I was accepted to the phone interview round for TFA today! Wooo!

As a foreigner, I actually had to google TFA...

That's great Cig congrats.

Your theory on superior/above average as medians - is that confirmed? Not that it really matters, I'm just curious as I'd never heard it before.

[FlanAl]

Anyone have any thoughts on how the UC's and other super GPA heavy schools will view foreign applicants? My guess would be that since they seem very invested in keeping that high GPA we are a good way for them to increase their LSAT medians without their GPA medians being affected. At the same time they claim a "hollistic" approach to admissions which might mean that those of us without the hottest transcripts might not cut it.

[FlanAl]

Also wanted to see if anyone had any experience EDing from last cycle to any school.

I'm pretty interested in how ED might work for one of us with an LSAT below a schools median.

thanks

[caribwonder]

Hi Guys

I am a foreign applicant, applying from the Caribbean, went to university in the UK. I like this thread!

For those of you who may be wondering about how a UK degree class converts to a GPA I have the following tidbit of info -
I went to an information session at George Washington Uni's Elliott School of International Affairs earlier this year to check out a course they had on offer. It was a roundtable discussion between myself, about 7 other prospective students, and the Director of Admissions for the entire school. I brought up the question of how a 2.1 from a good British university translates and his answer was: "That's considered very good. That's considered about a 3.7".
So there you go! I think it may vary from uni to uni, and who knows whether or not the Law School at GWU would view it in the same way. I can't be certain but i would imagine there must be some consistency within the university itself in interpreting these things.
So a 2.1. isn't top notch...but it's up there, and I"m sure some consideration would be given for whether you got a top 2.1 or a low 2.1, but that's what he said without me specifying which it was (high or low).
The Elliott School is very competitive also, so that's worth bearing in mind.

[thesybarite]

Re the foreign gpa thing, I didn't get a number on my academic report from LSAC at all - just the ranking. So I'm wondering if the unis you apply to will even see 2.1 or whatever it is... Obviously if it's on your transcript they will notice it.

It's almost like our gpas are irrelevant. Weird. Maybe not - too hard to compare I guess???

[xqhp82]

Re the foreign gpa thing, I didn't get a number on my academic report from LSAC at all - just the ranking. So I'm wondering if the unis you apply to will even see 2.1 or whatever it is... Obviously if it's on your transcript they will notice it.

It's almost like our gpas are irrelevant. Weird. Maybe not - too hard to compare I guess???

hmm that's a good point...I actually didn't notice the term "2.1" appearing anywhere on my LSAC report (not sure about my transcript since I can't see it but i doubt so) but only a 69% and 'above average'. that would translate horribly if the schools think it's equivalent to their marking system. but i guess they should have some experience in dealing with the UK system at least.

Also, for some reason the conversion table listed in my report, 'above average' is equivalent to a B/B+ while 'superior' is equivalent to A/A+. Where the hell has the A- gone???? an A and a B can be VERY different for a borderline student like me you know...

[Skyhook]

Yeah, I got above average as my evaluation, but that doesn't really point to a GPA band when considering what schools to apply to.

The GW Uni opinion seems to fit with my experience.

I'm wondering if UK uni's carry more clout in terms of reputation?
And does an approximate GPA even matter if we don't get reported.
It would seem to give law schools reporting numbers a boost if you are a high LSAT and "above average" GPA. Is that how it works?

The grade boundary system doesn't seem applicable either.

[cigrainger]

If you click 'JD Foreign CAS Evaluation' on your transcripts page in your LSAC account, your honours level is on the second page under 'Verbal Rating'. Mine says: 'Verbal rating: First Class Honours (I)'

[cigrainger]

Again, the advice I have been given is to assume they will treat your 'GPA' as median, or just below to be on the safe side. It won't help or hurt the schools numbers, so it will have a similar effect to your application. Superior might be seen as a nice soft. The LSAT is what's going to matter. Apply to schools where you are at or above their medians. Maybe one or two points below if you want to make a reach, but don't bank on acceptance. Check out LSN for your LSAT/Roughly median GPA and see how people performed.

[FlanAl]

i here you on the A- man! i don't get ho Ds are Cs and Cs are Bs and then all of a sudden Bs are only B+s and As are just As. after taking classes at uni's in the US and the UK I'd say a B1 is definitely worth at least an A-

[xqhp82]

i've given up trying to convince myself that above average means a certain GPA...since I'm going to blanket pretty much every school from T6-30. The schools will decide how much it worths. (but deep down I still feel LSAC can do way better in converting foreign grades! )

p.s. scored my first 168 on my timed PT today!! i must say its rather late for the october game but instinct tells me there's still hope for getting into a T20....fingers crossed!

[xqhp82]

If you click 'JD Foreign CAS Evaluation' on your transcripts page in your LSAC account, your honours level is on the second page under 'Verbal Rating'. Mine says: 'Verbal rating: First Class Honours (I)'

mine hasn't got anything written in 'verbal rating', 'rank in class' and 'other indices of quality'. does that matter?

screw my uni for not providing any rating info even though i insisted twice that it's important...

[FlanAl]

hey cig is the advice about being considered median coming from people who applied in years previous or from adcomms or from both? Just wondering as I think this is fantastic news for me being "above average", maybe not so great for your "superior" self haha

[FlanAl]

also i'd look at lsn for people at median but its not working. anyone know what is up with their site?

[cigrainger]

Just from people on TLS who are conveying past wisdom, and from someone who applied twice with a 2:1.

It makes a lot of sense though, with the way admissions works. We don't have a lot of data points, so I'd just apply where you want to apply, but think about it. Soft factors don't make big differences in admissions decisions. They just let adcoms differentiate between similar numbers. If you don't have a GPA, your degree rating has no effect on their GPA medians. Your LSAT does. Your LSAT becomes the single biggest factor. Your above average or superior becomes a soft factor that goes with all your other soft factors, which have suddenly jumped in importance a little.

[cigrainger]

[Skyhook]

Thanks for the input everyone.

So in effect, it doesn't matter what LS I apply to since my "GPA" would just be treated as their median intake value. Somewhat odd given the range this can cover!
I do see how it becomes a soft factor though. But then on that premise if I score at median LSAT or higher does that make me a lock, barring the most highly selective schools? And am I reaching too much for a 25% LSAT?

When asked to fill out these apps I have nothing to write in terms of academic honours - it just doesn't work that way in the UK. Magnum this and Summa that...!?!?
No class rank, and as far as I'm aware also no grade curve adjustments. What you scored was what you got - absolute values only, so no grade inflation. Very few survey courses too.

I'm confident in my UK academic resume (postgrad study included), but then looking at US academic resumes my resume looks threadbare and sorry for itself. Indeed, I did do extra-curricular academic activities but I wouldn't call them honours or achievements. I don't mean to be dismissive, but it seems that honours are given out left, right and centre as US institutions and for some very dubious criteria. Don't they become devalued at this point?

As my UG GPA is going to be treated as a soft, would postgrad studies be looked at a little more closely? It would be nice if my postgrad degree was given more than a cursory nod! Others on this forum have told me that it doesn't count for much, and my UK GPA would exclude me from the very top law schools. I didn't believe that at the time and our thread has seemed to confirm that belief about the GPA.

Interestingly, Harvard has a nice range of titles you can select on your app form.
Lieutenant, Captain, Dr, Mr, Ms, suggesting that they, more than others, take ex-military and PhD's. Would like to know that stats on that.

Would also like to know how many foreign born and educated (and also which countries) entrants there are each year to US LS.

[Cromartie]

Just from people on TLS who are conveying past wisdom, and from someone who applied twice with a 2:1.

It makes a lot of sense though, with the way admissions works. We don't have a lot of data points, so I'd just apply where you want to apply, but think about it. Soft factors don't make big differences in admissions decisions. They just let adcoms differentiate between similar numbers. If you don't have a GPA, your degree rating has no effect on their GPA medians. Your LSAT does. Your LSAT becomes the single biggest factor. Your above average or superior becomes a soft factor that goes with all your other soft factors, which have suddenly jumped in importance a little.

As an "international" (non-US/Canada school) who went through an application cycle last year, I can attest to this. I have a GPA in the 3.86-3.89 range as my undergrad used a 4.0 based grading scale. LSAC still went ahead and converted it to a 1.15/1.00 and a rating of Superior. I got into all but one of the schools I applied to (T-15 to T25 range) where my LSAT score was at or above median, got into exactly one school where I was 1 point below the LSAT median (T12-T15 range), and got dinged at the rest of the schools where my LSAT was below median (T-6 to T10 range). It didn't seem like my GPA made a difference at all.

On the other hand, I think my GPA made a world of difference in terms of scholarship awards. In the schools I did get into, my scholarship awards were substantially higher than a lot of admits whose LSAT scores were much higher than mine, but who had lower GPA's on a comparable scale.

Will be retaking the LSAT in about 2 weeks and I'm pretty optimistic that this cycle will go a lot better for me.

[FlanAl]

thanks cromartie, it is super helpful when people who have done this before post on the thread
good luck on the lsat and your cycle this year

[thesybarite]

Just from people on TLS who are conveying past wisdom, and from someone who applied twice with a 2:1.

It makes a lot of sense though, with the way admissions works. We don't have a lot of data points, so I'd just apply where you want to apply, but think about it. Soft factors don't make big differences in admissions decisions. They just let adcoms differentiate between similar numbers. If you don't have a GPA, your degree rating has no effect on their GPA medians. Your LSAT does. Your LSAT becomes the single biggest factor. Your above average or superior becomes a soft factor that goes with all your other soft factors, which have suddenly jumped in importance a little.

As an "international" (non-US/Canada school) who went through an application cycle last year, I can attest to this. I have a GPA in the 3.86-3.89 range as my undergrad used a 4.0 based grading scale. LSAC still went ahead and converted it to a 1.15/1.00 and a rating of Superior. I got into all but one of the schools I applied to (T-15 to T25 range) where my LSAT score was at or above median, got into exactly one school where I was 1 point below the LSAT median (T12-T15 range), and got dinged at the rest of the schools where my LSAT was below median (T-6 to T10 range). It didn't seem like my GPA made a difference at all.

On the other hand, I think my GPA made a world of difference in terms of scholarship awards. In the schools I did get into, my scholarship awards were substantially higher than a lot of admits whose LSAT scores were much higher than mine, but who had lower GPA's on a comparable scale.

Will be retaking the LSAT in about 2 weeks and I'm pretty optimistic that this cycle will go a lot better for me.

Thanks - that is really helpful...if not a little daunting. As someone coming from a country with very little/no standardized testing for things like law school, I'm still surprised how much one test impacts.

[xqhp82]

Now I'm totally regretting about not applying for US undergrad years ago...I had a 4.0 GPA from my high school that could probably lead me to a great school in the US and the SAT would be a piece of cake compared to the LSAT if only i knew how much the numbers matter!

[cigrainger]

In other news, I'm here for the weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nha_Trang

And I'm going here for dinner and beers: http://www.louisianebrewhouse.com.vn/

[xqhp82]

In other news, I'm here for the weekend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nha_Trang

And I'm going here for dinner and beers: http://www.louisianebrewhouse.com.vn/

NICE

as for me, i officially announce that weekends are non-existent until 10th october.

my family was actually planning to go to vietnam in october, but it's irrelevant to me since i will not be in asia then. *sob* heading back to England right after my exam in Hong Kong and hello dissertation and summatives.

[The Real Jack McCoy]

I suspect that at the top schools your actual GPA will matter. E.g.:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Neely/jd

[cigrainger]

I suspect that at the top schools your actual GPA will matter. E.g.:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Neely/jd

Maybe, but 3.3 definitely is not equivalent to a 2:1. Above average = 3.5+ at least. Superior = 3.8-4.0.