Why You Should Go To Law School Forum

[General Tso]

You are probably familiar with what happened to Hastings, which was, appropriately enough, my second choice. (My parents are CA taxpayers who claimed me as a dependent last year, though I was living and working in NYC, so it's unclear whether I would have had in state status.)

They would have gotten you on where you paid taxes. I have heard classmates that got tripped up on that one.

Forget Hastings OS! Fordham is better anyway....I sometimes wish I had stayed on the Fordham WL instead

[OperaSoprano]

BTW, I am glad you said something about depression. The stigma is very much still there, and I talk about it, though others disagree with my stance, because it's so ubiquitous -- most of my close friends have been through a major depressive episode at least once, and none of them really want to bring it up.

Since I’m older I will say most people will go through depression at least once by the time they are 30. Its more of stigma with the younger generation, but the time you reach your thirties most of your friends have been divorced, addicted to some type of substance, dealt with death of a friend or family member, and depressed at least once. There is not stigma about talking about it anymore. At 22 you think you have the world all figured out and know everything, and 32 the only thing your 100% sure of is that at 22 you had no idea what the fuck you were talking about. Age is the great equalizer of experience.

I hope so, Matthies. I'm almost 25, and I sure as hell don't feel very wise yet. Sometimes I think of the Thornton Wilder quote: "My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy the ice cream while it's on your plate." Life is good right now. It hasn't always been good, and it may suck again in the future, but right now, as a first semester 1L at Fordham, I'm glad I chose law school. Personal happiness is elusive enough, and if these are going to be the best years of my life, I want to remember them.

1L, while it will suck going through it, will be, when you look back on it, one of the best years of your life. You will meet some of your best freinds, and you all will bond really tightly becuase your all going trhough it together (even in a PT program, it may seem your classmates are more transiant, but you will make life long freinds with them). Do your best to enjoy the ride (and I know you worry about grades) but let it unfold as it will. belive it or not one day you will miss 1L and wish you could do it all over again.

Haha, I already have a reputation at Fordham. No, not the one you're thinking of, as a surprisingly small number of my classmates actually use TLS. My GPA feels like a life or death matter, and that time I told Splitt3r I would kill myself if I didn't like my grades, well, it wasn't that much of an exaggeration. I'm close to a number of my classmates (and a bunch of CLS people, too), but they all think I'm neurotic. They're not wrong. It's something to work toward, I think. You survived. Reasonable Man survived. Even MTal survived 1L year, though he decided enough was enough. I'm happy with my school, and though I'm fighting that terror, this is still the adventure of a lifetime.

[OperaSoprano]

You are probably familiar with what happened to Hastings, which was, appropriately enough, my second choice. (My parents are CA taxpayers who claimed me as a dependent last year, though I was living and working in NYC, so it's unclear whether I would have had in state status.)

They would have gotten you on where you paid taxes. I have heard classmates that got tripped up on that one.

Forget Hastings OS! Fordham is better anyway....I sometimes wish I had stayed on the Fordham WL instead

Oh, swheat, I won't listen to you slandering your own school. I would have been in less debt there (I could have lived in my father's apartment in SF rent free), but I am happy here, so things worked out well enough. You would have liked Fordham, but I remain fond of Hastings. Don't make me come back there and talk you into loving your own school, lol.

BTW, have you met DeadAtheist yet? She is a darling, and I've honestly never been happier for anyone than I was for DA when she got her long awaited news. I have another obnoxious quote, but I promise it's the last one:

--ImageRemoved--

[adamlippes]

My GPA feels like a life or death matter, and that time I told Splitt3r I would kill myself if I didn't like my grades, well, it wasn't that much of an exaggeration.

You seriously need help, opera.

[OperaSoprano]

My GPA feels like a life or death matter, and that time I told Splitt3r I would kill myself if I didn't like my grades, well, it wasn't that much of an exaggeration.

You seriously need help, opera.

I know, LOL. I probably shouldn't even be amused at my own level of worry, but it helps to be open about it, and I know several of my classmates feel similarly about our impending finals.

[Matthies]

[quote="

Haha, I already have a reputation at Fordham. No, not the one you're thinking of, as a surprisingly small number of my classmates actually use TLS. My GPA feels like a life or death matter, and that time I told Splitt3r I would kill myself if I didn't like my grades, well, it wasn't that much of an exaggeration. I'm close to a number of my classmates (and a bunch of CLS people, too), but they all think I'm neurotic. They're not wrong. It's something to work toward, I think. You survived. Reasonable Man survived. Even MTal survived 1L year, though he decided enough was enough. I'm happy with my school, and though I'm fighting that terror, this is still the adventure of a lifetime.[/quote]

One of my bosses who has practiced in town for 35 years, went to my school, and is probably one of the most successful attorneys I have ever met with an incredible reputation in town as well as a garage full of Masteraties was a C student (and a solo practitioner brining in over 1 mill a year). He showed me a picture of his graduating class one day and told me everyone’s history. Not a single person from the top of his class as still in the profession, and the number 2 was in jail.

Don’t worry so much about your grades, its great if you can get them, but they won’t define your career. I know more lawyers and judges then I do law students and just about everyone one of them was an “average” student. I’ve yet to meet anyone who has told me they were at the top of the class and is still practing for more than 5 years. I know a few, but none of them have gotten to the five year mark yet.

Everyone I know who has ten years or more has always described themselves as average. In fact I know a Fordum grad here in town who was in the very bottom of her class but is now a named partner in a bankruptcy firm. Good grades don’t always equal good lawyers.

For me the biggest thing was stoping caring. My first semster I was so wrapped up in grades, then I got straight B+s (on a 3,0 cruve). Next semster I stoped worrying about it an all my grades went up except one. It really seesmed the less I cared the better I did. But if your grades don't come out how you want, its not the end of theworld. We can work on anouther plan to help you reach your gaols. I edned up 13th in my class, but becuase of networking I never had to do OCI or ever even apply for a job, people just offerd me stuff. So its not then of the dream if you don't land in the top 10%.

[adamlippes]

I know, LOL. I probably shouldn't even be amused at my own level of worry, but it helps to be open about it, and I know several of my classmates feel similarly about our impending finals.

It probably also helps to see a shrink.

There are other forms of behavior that need counseling other than being vomit-rocket at FIT.

[OperaSoprano]

One of my bosses who has practiced in town for 35 years, went to my school, and is probably one of the most successful attorneys I have ever met with an incredible reputation in town as well as a garage full of Masteraties was a C student (and a solo practitioner brining in over 1 mill a year). He showed me a picture of his graduating class one day and told me everyone’s history. Not a single person from the top of his class as still in the profession, and the number 2 was in jail.

Don’t worry so much about your grades, its great if you can get them, but they won’t define your career. I know more lawyers and judges then I do law students and just about everyone one of them was an “average” student. I’ve yet to meet anyone who has told me they were at the top of the class and is still practing for more than 5 years. I know a few, but none of them have gotten to the five year mark yet.

Everyone I know who has ten years or more has always described themselves as average. In fact I know a Fordum grad here in town who was in the very bottom of her class but is now a named partner in a bankruptcy firm. Good grades don’t always equal good lawyers.

For me the biggest thing was stoping caring. My first semster I was so wrapped up in grades, then I got straight B+s (on a 3,0 cruve). Next semster I stoped worrying about it an all my grades went up except one. It really seesmed the less I cared the better I did. But if your grades don't come out how you want, its not the end of theworld. We can work on anouther plan to help you reach your gaols. I edned up 13th in my class, but becuase of networking I never had to do OCI or ever even apply for a job, people just offerd me stuff. So its not then of the dream if you don't land in the top 10%.

Matthies, thank you for the reality check. I do feel I have something to prove, because of my academic background. The strange thing is that I've gotten most of my past jobs because someone liked me (as a person), and wanted to pass along the recommendation, or else knew of someone else who was hiring. I've never purposefully networked, though in effect I've been doing so most of my adult life. I know my friends will help me if they can (by passing along my resume, etc), and I'll help them. Avoiding stress is the difficulty, and it sounds like you managed that well. How did you do it?

[ainzabo7]

Anyway - you're never going to *really* make money (in the grand scheme of things) working a salary job for someone else... yet all these supposedly smart kids are practically killing each other for a chance at middle class salary jobs. Seems like most applicants to top law schools are well brain washed.

Since when is $160K a middle class salary? That income ranks among the top 3% of the country. Additionally, partners at big law firms consistently make $250K+. I'm sure a 27 year old out of a top law program working for big law is making in the top 1% of his/her age group. Do your research!

Make-up artist? I know 160 million women/girls in this country who can apply make-up better than me. I don't have a competitive advantage in that field so that is out of the question! From my personal experience, I have a significantly higher percentage of friends who have not succeeded in the entertainment business vs. friends who have not succeeded in law. In fact, I don't have any friends who have not succeeded in law. Some of those individuals attended Tier 3 & 4 law schools. Some of my friends who did not succeed in the entertainment industry were the brightest minds at my Top 20 MBA institution. I'll go with the percentages and stick to law.

[Always Credited]

Anyway - you're never going to *really* make money (in the grand scheme of things) working a salary job for someone else... yet all these supposedly smart kids are practically killing each other for a chance at middle class salary jobs. Seems like most applicants to top law schools are well brain washed.

Since when is $160K a middle class salary? That income ranks among the top 3% of the country. Additionally, partners at big law firms consistently make $250K+. I'm sure a 27 year old out of a top law program working for big law is making in the top 1% of his/her age group. Do your research!

Make-up artist? I know 160 million women/girls in this country who can apply make-up better than me. I don't have a competitive advantage in that field so that is out of the question! From my personal experience, I have a significantly higher percentage of friends who have not succeeded in the entertainment business vs. friends who have not succeeded in law. In fact, I don't have any friends who have not succeeded in law. Some of those individuals attended Tier 3 & 4 law schools. Some of my friends who did not succeed in the entertainment industry were the brightest minds at my Top 20 MBA institution. I'll go with the percentages and stick to law.

Uh oh.

[Matthies]

Matthies, thank you for the reality check. I do feel I have something to prove, because of my academic background. The strange thing is that I've gotten most of my past jobs because someone liked me (as a person), and wanted to pass along the recommendation, or else knew of someone else who was hiring. I've never purposefully networked, though in effect I've been doing so most of my adult life. I know my friends will help me if they can (by passing along my resume, etc), and I'll help them. Avoiding stress is the difficulty, and it sounds like you managed that well. How did you do it?

How do I do it? I just don’t ever give up, ever, and I don't listen to what other people say my life is going to be like. When I was a kid I failed every grade till I was 10. They thought I was autistic so that sat me in corner to eat paste. I did not learn to read or write my own name till after I was 10. I was sent to a school for dyslexic kids, made up all the missed grades and went to HS where I barely graduated.

I have sever dyslexia, I can’t write without text to speech or MS Word (and even that does not help much). I certainly can’t write by hand (everything comes out transposed or backwards). I failed out of the college, I mean Fs because what I wrote was unreadbale. I did not have a computer then. Gave up on school, became an alcoholic, got in trouble with the law, got sober and decided to try school again. I went back six years later, got 100 credits at a 3.92 GPA with a computer to write for me. I bombed the LSAT, I tend to transpose Ds and Bs on scantrons so I have to triple check all my answers. In those days they did not give accommodations to dyslexics (they got sued and now they do).

I applied to 25 law schools the first time, got into Roger Williams which was too far away from my family being from Arizona. DU turned me down, but because I mentioned enviromental law in my PS they offered me a spot in their Master of Law Studies Degree (MLS), at DU this is exactly like the LLM in environmental law but open to a few students with an environmental background. The deal was you took 2L and 3L classes like Environmental Law, Water Law, Natural resource Law with the 2Ls and 3Ls under the same curve with the same tests but without having done the 1L year (infa ct the profs had no idea you were not a 2L or 3L).

I figured this was my best shot at showing people my LSAT was not predictive for me. If I did good, then I could make that argument, if I did bad, then LS was never going to be an option. I took the challenge, sold off a bunch of my business in AZ and moved to Denver. Did 24 credits of law school classes with 2Ls and 3Ls, ended up getting highest grade in two classes and a 3.67 GPA on a 3.0 curve. After my first semester of straight As DU then let me into the evening JD program and four years alter I graduated 13th in my class. Even thought writiong is my biggest challenge I was able to write on to a jounral and even get published several times.

I graduated in May 2009, and applied for the July 2009 bar exam. I sent in all my paperwork for my dyslexia back to the point when I was ten. I asked for extra time on the essay section to spell check my answers and to use a spell checker (our exam software did not have it). Three weeks before the exam the bar sent me a letter saying they denied my application for accommodations (I was one of nine people who applied, all were granted but me, they all had ADD which I also have).

The letter from the bar listed as one of the reasons they denied me a report from a school I never attended in a state I never lived in. I called and told them this report was not mine, but they said it was unapealable for July, I either take the exam as is, or wait till February. I ahd already been in barbri class and studying for the exam. That pretty much killed my motivation because I was sure I could not pass without time to spell check my answers, but I deiced to take it anyway.

They gave us 30 mins for each of eight essays and 90 mins for each PT. Because I transpose letters so badly if I don’t fix what I write its unreadable and people have to guess what words I am using, and most likely the graders would not give me points for words they could not underatnd. So I could not just leave it misspelled, so I gave myself 20 mins on each essay to write and 10 misn to spell check. 60 mins to write on PT and 30 mins to spell check. So I basically gave up 1/3 of my time to spell check and fix my writing. I ran out of time with 1.5 essay left. You need 276 points to pass I failed the bar by either ten points or six points depending on whose grader score you look at (two people grade the exam, then they average the two scores for your final score). So now I am studying for Feb retake.

So how did I do it? I just don’t give up - ever. Seeing that less than 20% of sever dyslexics even graduate HS I’m not supposed to have one college degree, much less three. My teachers said I would never learn to read, or write, that I would never graduate HS, that I could never get into LS, that I was not smart enough because I ahd a low LSAT. I just don’t listen to other people I guess. I should not be where I am according to all the experts, so I figure I’m a winner every time I try, so I just keep trying. I figure the only thing that can keep me from succeeding is myself, so I try not to let myself fuck me up.

“Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.”

---Mark Twain (1835-1910)

[j2d3]

Matthies: you are awesome.

You could also, like me, figure out how to program computers. You don't need school for that... everything you need is right in front of you... I taught myself (almost) everything I know about programming, and I made $2500/week - for a 35 hour (or so) week - every week for 3 years - doing IT / web production for a network TV show. It was obscene how easy my job was.

I've always wanted to learn how to program, but I don't have any idea where to start (I'm not wanting it for a career, just personal knowledge and maybe a side gig every now and then). If you have any tips, PM me!

Bumblebeetoona: Sorry I didn't respond to your question. Someone PM'd me the same thing and when I answered them I got mixed up and thought it was that person who had asked the same thing on the board, not you. So - here's basically what I said:

My path into computers is not really repeatable by you, but that's a good thing. I sort of fell into it because I've always had an innate interest. I learned to program in GW Basic on a RadioShack TRS-80 when I was in 5th grade (probably before you were born), because I had a forward thinking math teacher at my catholic school. I used to write programs for fun. I went to "computer camp" once. When the internet came out, I was in heaven. I was part of the first class at school that all received email accounts, and I got ethernet in my dorm room. I spent 4000 of an "apple loan" to buy my first PC, which was useless long before I paid that loan off.

Anyway - I didn't study computers formally in school until I had dropped out of Yale and joined the Air Force. There, I learned all about electronics, and I took CS courses offered on-base by Chapman U. When I left the USAF, I moved to LA and got my first computer job as tech support for a fledgling web-hosting company. It was 1998, and I was the 6th employee. They grew rapidly, and the sole systems administrator sort of took me under his wing and taught me the basics of UNIX, which was essentially how to type "man (any command)" at the prompt to read the manual page about it... and when you don't know what's up, look it up on the web. (I would say "google it," but google wasn't born yet. I used metacrawler at the time.) From there, I had a series of jobs as a systems administrator, i taught myself web programming in several different languages and platforms as different styles came in and out of vogue... and that's really it.

So the good news is you don't have to do all that or anything like it because the web has matured and if you have the interest, everything you need to know is right there in front of you. google, wikipedia, and the web in general are there to help you learn. To figure out where to begin, I would suggest teaching yourself UNIX. Do this by getting a hold of an old computer, download a copy of the latest Ubuntu and try to install it on your old computer. You can use the kind of computer that people generally throw away because it's so old. Ubuntu is a "flavor" of UNIX... actually it's a flavor of GNU, which is a recursive acronym meaning Gnu's Not Unix... and you can learn more about all that by googling GNU... Anyway there are tons of user forums with all sorts of help on everything you will possibly run into. Stick to the world of free software (look this up too... go to fsf.org and read about it.) Don't pay for anything.

you really can't learn this stuff from any school or in any class. I guess you could, but you shouldn't waste the time and money. Teach yourself... or let the millions of willing people out there on the web teach you. You just have to have the curiosity and the ability to stick to it... stay up all night... keep going until you figure it out. know that there is ALWAYS a solution. it's like a never ending logic game.

Another thing you might do to get started is set your own blog up. Use wordpress - the kind you download and run on your own server, not the hosted version. Get a web-hosting service... Media Temple is a good cheap one. Register a domain name, point it to your space at media temple (or some other webhosting service), install wordpress, and start blogging. You'll learn a lot just by doing that. Then you'll want to start customizing things and before you know it you'll be learning HTML/CSS php and mysql... all sorts of fun stuff.

Hope that helps you or anyone else who is wondering the same thing.

[j2d3]

Anyway - you're never going to *really* make money (in the grand scheme of things) working a salary job for someone else... yet all these supposedly smart kids are practically killing each other for a chance at middle class salary jobs. Seems like most applicants to top law schools are well brain washed.

Since when is $160K a middle class salary? That income ranks among the top 3% of the country. Additionally, partners at big law firms consistently make $250K+. I'm sure a 27 year old out of a top law program working for big law is making in the top 1% of his/her age group. Do your research!

Make-up artist? I know 160 million women/girls in this country who can apply make-up better than me. I don't have a competitive advantage in that field so that is out of the question! From my personal experience, I have a significantly higher percentage of friends who have not succeeded in the entertainment business vs. friends who have not succeeded in law. In fact, I don't have any friends who have not succeeded in law. Some of those individuals attended Tier 3 & 4 law schools. Some of my friends who did not succeed in the entertainment industry were the brightest minds at my Top 20 MBA institution. I'll go with the percentages and stick to law.

we already covered all this. I'm glad you read my post but you'll need to read the 12 pages in between. I was exaggerating when I said $160K is "middle class," but my point is just that you will never make REAL money until you are working for yourself. My point about that makeup artist is not that you or anyone else should give up law to become a makeup artist... I was just saying that no matter what you do, if you love what you do and commit yourself to being the best at it, there is really no limit to how much money you can make... and anyway - the point is to be happy. So I was just saying that since you have to be at the highest level of success in the legal field to make $160K, if the only reason you're doing it is for the chance to make such money - there are plenty of other fields in which the highest brackets earn far more than that and which are much cheaper and less risky to enter. Nevertheless, whatever you do, you should do it because you love doing it, not because you think it will get you rich. Do what you love and the money will follow. Or it won't. But happiness definitely will. People I know who chase money are usually sad whether they find it or not.

[Matthies]

Anyway - you're never going to *really* make money (in the grand scheme of things) working a salary job for someone else... yet all these supposedly smart kids are practically killing each other for a chance at middle class salary jobs. Seems like most applicants to top law schools are well brain washed.

Since when is $160K a middle class salary? That income ranks among the top 3% of the country. Additionally, partners at big law firms consistently make $250K+. I'm sure a 27 year old out of a top law program working for big law is making in the top 1% of his/her age group. Do your research!

Make-up artist? I know 160 million women/girls in this country who can apply make-up better than me. I don't have a competitive advantage in that field so that is out of the question! From my personal experience, I have a significantly higher percentage of friends who have not succeeded in the entertainment business vs. friends who have not succeeded in law. In fact, I don't have any friends who have not succeeded in law. Some of those individuals attended Tier 3 & 4 law schools. Some of my friends who did not succeed in the entertainment industry were the brightest minds at my Top 20 MBA institution. I'll go with the percentages and stick to law.

but my point is just that you will never make REAL money until you are working for yourself.

I agree with this. People forget that partners in a law firm as basically “working for themselves” they get paid a percentage of what they take in. At that point you’re really self employed. There was a book a few years ago that studied people with a net worth of over 1 million, doctors and lawyers where not the highest on the list, business owners where like people who owned pubmling stores and eleetcrition companies and grocery stores where the most common people at the top of the net worth list. In part because they made good salaries but they also owned the means of their salaries. When you own the company it adds a lot to your net worth.

[OperaSoprano]

Matthies, thank you for the reality check. I do feel I have something to prove, because of my academic background. The strange thing is that I've gotten most of my past jobs because someone liked me (as a person), and wanted to pass along the recommendation, or else knew of someone else who was hiring. I've never purposefully networked, though in effect I've been doing so most of my adult life. I know my friends will help me if they can (by passing along my resume, etc), and I'll help them. Avoiding stress is the difficulty, and it sounds like you managed that well. How did you do it?

How do I do it? I just don’t ever give up, ever, and I don't listen to what other people say my life is going to be like. When I was a kid I failed every grade till I was 10. They thought I was autistic so that sat me in corner to eat paste. I did not learn to read or write my own name till after I was 10. I was sent to a school for dyslexic kids, made up all the missed grades and went to HS where I barely graduated.

I have sever dyslexia, I can’t write without text to speech or MS Word (and even that does not help much). I certainly can’t write by hand (everything comes out transposed or backwards). I failed out of the college, I mean Fs because what I wrote was unreadbale. I did not have a computer then. Gave up on school, became an alcoholic, got in trouble with the law, got sober and decided to try school again. I went back six years later, got 100 credits at a 3.92 GPA with a computer to write for me. I bombed the LSAT, I tend to transpose Ds and Bs on scantrons so I have to triple check all my answers. In those days they did not give accommodations to dyslexics (they got sued and now they do).

I applied to 25 law schools the first time, got into Roger Williams which was too far away from my family being from Arizona. DU turned me down, but because I mentioned enviromental law in my PS they offered me a spot in their Master of Law Studies Degree (MLS), at DU this is exactly like the LLM in environmental law but open to a few students with an environmental background. The deal was you took 2L and 3L classes like Environmental Law, Water Law, Natural resource Law with the 2Ls and 3Ls under the same curve with the same tests but without having done the 1L year (infa ct the profs had no idea you were not a 2L or 3L).

I figured this was my best shot at showing people my LSAT was not predictive for me. If I did good, then I could make that argument, if I did bad, then LS was never going to be an option. I took the challenge, sold off a bunch of my business in AZ and moved to Denver. Did 24 credits of law school classes with 2Ls and 3Ls, ended up getting highest grade in two classes and a 3.67 GPA on a 3.0 curve. After my first semester of straight As DU then let me into the evening JD program and four years alter I graduated 13th in my class. Even thought writiong is my biggest challenge I was able to write on to a jounral and even get published several times.

I graduated in May 2009, and applied for the July 2009 bar exam. I sent in all my paperwork for my dyslexia back to the point when I was ten. I asked for extra time on the essay section to spell check my answers and to use a spell checker (our exam software did not have it). Three weeks before the exam the bar sent me a letter saying they denied my application for accommodations (I was one of nine people who applied, all were granted but me, they all had ADD which I also have).

The letter from the bar listed as one of the reasons they denied me a report from a school I never attended in a state I never lived in. I called and told them this report was not mine, but they said it was unapealable for July, I either take the exam as is, or wait till February. I ahd already been in barbri class and studying for the exam. That pretty much killed my motivation because I was sure I could not pass without time to spell check my answers, but I deiced to take it anyway.

They gave us 30 mins for each of eight essays and 90 mins for each PT. Because I transpose letters so badly if I don’t fix what I write its unreadable and people have to guess what words I am using, and most likely the graders would not give me points for words they could not underatnd. So I could not just leave it misspelled, so I gave myself 20 mins on each essay to write and 10 misn to spell check. 60 mins to write on PT and 30 mins to spell check. So I basically gave up 1/3 of my time to spell check and fix my writing. I ran out of time with 1.5 essay left. You need 276 points to pass I failed the bar by either ten points or six points depending on whose grader score you look at (two people grade the exam, then they average the two scores for your final score). So now I am studying for Feb retake.

So how did I do it? I just don’t give up - ever. Seeing that less than 20% of sever dyslexics even graduate HS I’m not supposed to have one college degree, much less three. My teachers said I would never learn to read, or write, that I would never graduate HS, that I could never get into LS, that I was not smart enough because I ahd a low LSAT. I just don’t listen to other people I guess. I should not be where I am according to all the experts, so I figure I’m a winner every time I try, so I just keep trying. I figure the only thing that can keep me from succeeding is myself, so I try not to let myself fuck me up.

“Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.”

---Mark Twain (1835-1910)

I'm going to send you a PM as soon as I can, but I meanwhile echo the sentiments of the poster above me: you are awesome. I was also told by doctors that I would not graduate from high school, but in my case it really was my family I have to thank for their tenacity. I don't have that much courage.

Edit: When I read that quote, for some reason I thought of Cleareyes. He used to tell me "you can beat my score." He had a 174, mind. My standard response was, "I adore you, but you are on drugs." I've met few people who ever so selflessly saw greatness in everyone around them.

My goal is to get to a place where terror over my own perceived lack of achievement isn't the principal thing on my mind.

You are exceedingly awesome for coming back and guiding us.

[Matthies]

My goal is to get to a place where terror over my own perceived lack of achievement isn't the principal thing on my mind.

I don’t think any of us ever get to the point that we are every completely satisfied with our achievements. And why should we? We, as humans, always need goals to keep ourselves moving forward. I doubt Bill Gates is satisfied with just what he’s done to date.

But I also think we can’t let our own perceived lack of achievement grind away at us to the point that it’s no longer a motivator but something that brings us down, that sows doubt, and keeps us from really trying. I look at it like this, I’ve done some pretty amazing things in my life and I have failed at a bunch of things too. But if I can honestly say I gave it my best shot, then I’m OK with failing. I don't need to be good at everything, so long as I am good at soemthing.

The best I can do does not have to be perfect, I just have to be able to say to myself I gave it the best shot I could, if that’s true then I’m OK if I hit the mark or not. Like with the bar, yea it sucks I failed it, but I know I gave it the best shot I could at the time, learned from my experience and now I will try again. Does me no good to dwell on the past other than to learn from my mistakes so I can improve in the future. I now have a plan, even if they turn me down again, that I think should work.

If you can honestly say to yourself you gave it your best shot, you did not give up, then I think that says something in and of its self, we don’t have to always reach the pinnacle sometimes just going through the effort is its own reward. And if you can see that as an achievement in and of itself, then you didn’t fail even if you did not reach your unlitate goal. Its only when we let self doubt keep us from giving it our best shot that I think we unltimaly really fail at anything.

(PS thanks for the kind words!)

[Borhas]

posts like that are why I like this messege board, every once in a while there is some real wisdom and insightful thinking around here, so thanks for posting on this board Mathies,

====

I guess I'll give my take on the whole LS thing...


I should/want/will go to law school because I see it as the best way to fulfill my responsibilities to society and to have my own fulfilling life... I haven't always been a good student, in fact I considered myself an underachiever until the senior year of UG when I finally "got it" (and that involved a long and arduous process of overcoming some social anxiety and substance abuse problems). In my more immature days I lived from one simple pleasure to the next thinking that life only made sense from the hedonistic perspective. Once I finally "got it" I gained an unprecedented appreciation for two things: creation, and service. The simple pleasures in life (chemicals/ material property) are pretty close the worthless. Real happiness comes from building something that lasts... building something... like a family, or an idea, or an institution gives a satisfaction that lasts long after the act itself is finished. I believe that an essential part of being human is to make contributions that last long after our deaths, to gain some semblance of immortality... (again whether they are our families, ideas, or institutions we found or maintain). This belief allowed me to view work differently. Work wasn't a chore for me anymore, as long as I thought my work could make a contribution to society, and make myself a better person I did it willingly and happily. I want to go to law school to fulfill that ideal. I WANT to work my ass off... but not to gain money or status, but so that I could gain the satisfaction of knowing that my job makes a significant contribution.

But why law in particular? I believe I have been blessed to have the capacity to do well in that role, at least according the the LSAT and my philosophy classes (and if I couldn't do well then I would not be fulfilling my responsibility to society). Secondly I believe the lessons I've learned in my transition from a chaotic life to an ordered life make me value the institution of law on a very fundamental and ideological (and maybe even naive) level. Hopefully I'll do well enough that I can work as an ADA and contribute to society by doing something I think I will be great at while at the same time maintaining an institution that I profoundly respect.

[BeastCoastHype]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

[Matthies]

posts like that are why I like this messege board, every once in a while there is some real wisdom and insightful thinking around here, so thanks for posting on this board Mathies,

====

I guess I'll give my take on the whole LS thing...


I should/want/will go to law school because I see it as the best way to fulfill my responsibilities to society and to have my own fulfilling life... I haven't always been a good student, in fact I considered myself an underachiever until the senior year of UG when I finally "got it" (and that involved a long and arduous process of overcoming some social anxiety and substance abuse problems). In my more immature days I lived from one simple pleasure to the next thinking that life only made sense from the hedonistic perspective. Once I finally "got it" I gained an unprecedented appreciation for two things: creation, and service. The simple pleasures in life (chemicals/ material property) are pretty close the worthless. Real happiness comes from building something that lasts... building something... like a family, or an idea, or an institution gives a satisfaction that lasts long after the act itself is finished. I believe that an essential part of being human is to make contributions that last long after our deaths, to gain some semblance of immortality... (again whether they are our families, ideas, or institutions we found or maintain). This belief allowed me to view work differently. Work wasn't a chore for me anymore, as long as I thought my work could make a contribution to society, and make myself a better person I did it willingly and happily. I want to go to law school to fulfill that ideal. I WANT to work my ass off... but not to gain money or status, but so that I could gain the satisfaction of knowing that my job makes a significant contribution.

But why law in particular? I believe I have been blessed to have the capacity to do well in that role, at least according the the LSAT and my philosophy classes (and if I couldn't do well then I would not be fulfilling my responsibility to society). Secondly I believe the lessons I've learned in my transition from a chaotic life to an ordered life make me value the institution of law on a very fundamental and ideological (and maybe even naive) level. Hopefully I'll do well enough that I can work as an ADA and contribute to society by doing something I think I will be great at while at the same time maintaining an institution that I profoundly respect.

Suounds like a perfectly logical plan to me. Good luck on achiving your goal. I know an ADA whose does consumer protection cases like against Check Cahsing places and bad mortage places, he really enjoys what he does becuase everyday he helps people who don't have the emans to help themslves. He had to start out at a frim to get some litigtion experince, then joined the ADA and now is the department ehad all in ten years as a alwyer coming from the lcoal T2 school. He has been a great metor to me, really good guy who loves his job.

[Matthies]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

Haha, this thread is full of pre laws, law students, and lawyers. You can’t expect it NOT to turn into an argument. The OP could have said the sky was blue, and when you have an audience like this they are goona argue about it. It what they train you to do!

[prezidentv8]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

Haha, this thread is full of pre laws, law students, and lawyers. You can’t expect it NOT to turn into an argument. The OP could have said the sky was blue, and when you have an audience like this they are goona argue about it. It what they train you to do!

As much as I don't mind arguing about stuff, I do mind arguing all the time. This argumentative-about-everything-and-anything personality trait might be the one thing that bugs me about law students in general. Well, that and the fact that fewer law students seem to recognize my movie quotes than people in the general population.

[DannyJames]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

Haha, this thread is full of pre laws, law students, and lawyers. You can’t expect it NOT to turn into an argument. The OP could have said the sky was blue, and when you have an audience like this they are goona argue about it. It what they train you to do!

As much as I don't mind arguing about stuff, I do mind arguing all the time. This argumentative-about-everything-and-anything personality trait might be the one thing that bugs me about law students in general. Well, that and the fact that fewer law students seem to recognize my movie quotes than people in the general population.

so true about the movie quotes thing. i get strange looks all the time when i say something from a movie and people don't get it

[prezidentv8]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

Haha, this thread is full of pre laws, law students, and lawyers. You can’t expect it NOT to turn into an argument. The OP could have said the sky was blue, and when you have an audience like this they are goona argue about it. It what they train you to do!

As much as I don't mind arguing about stuff, I do mind arguing all the time. This argumentative-about-everything-and-anything personality trait might be the one thing that bugs me about law students in general. Well, that and the fact that fewer law students seem to recognize my movie quotes than people in the general population.

so true about the movie quotes thing. i get strange looks all the time when i say something from a movie and people don't get it

Hahahaha...dude...amen.

[Matthies]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

Haha, this thread is full of pre laws, law students, and lawyers. You can’t expect it NOT to turn into an argument. The OP could have said the sky was blue, and when you have an audience like this they are goona argue about it. It what they train you to do!

As much as I don't mind arguing about stuff, I do mind arguing all the time. This argumentative-about-everything-and-anything personality trait might be the one thing that bugs me about law students in general. Well, that and the fact that fewer law students seem to recognize my movie quotes than people in the general population.

You need to start quoting from porn movies then LS will get them

[Kohinoor]

I think it's very funny that a post with nothing other than the general proposition that law school is not as hard and is more fun than complainers make it out to be prompted a 16 page argument.

Haha, this thread is full of pre laws, law students, and lawyers. You can’t expect it NOT to turn into an argument. The OP could have said the sky was blue, and when you have an audience like this they are goona argue about it. It what they train you to do!

As much as I don't mind arguing about stuff, I do mind arguing all the time. This argumentative-about-everything-and-anything personality trait might be the one thing that bugs me about law students in general. Well, that and the fact that fewer law students seem to recognize my movie quotes than people in the general population.

Have you tried to order take-out with your study group yet? People were betrayed and lines were drawn.