Law School Stats Analysis Blog Forum

[whippersnappery]

This is really awesome. Would it be possible to see GPA/LSAT averages for women and URM, much in the same way that you have them for splitters/non-splitters?

That's no problem at all. Just let me know which schools you'd like to see them for, or if you just want all of them, let me know (that'll take a bit, though)!

Thanks! I would be most interested in seeing how that works for T6.

Here you go!

Average LSAT/GPA for women and URM accepted applicants are:

Yale: Women (174 / 3.89) & URM (170.1 / 3.77)
Harvard: Women (173.3 / 3.86) & URM (169.2 / 3.72)
Stanford: Women (172.2 / 3.87) & URM (168.9 / 3.70)
Chicago: Women (171.8 / 3.77) & URM (167.4 / 3.69)
Columbia: Women (173 / 3.77) & URM (167.8 / 3.65)
NYU: Women (172.2 / 3.76) & URM (167.5 / 3.65)

Hope that's what you were looking for!

Thanks! That's really interesting data.

[elterrible78]

Hey everyone, just posted something quick on EDing to the T14. Application season is just about here, and hopefully this will be helpful to people. Check it out if you're interested:

http://admissionsbythenumbers.blogspot. ... op-14.html

[Lavitz]

Nice.

Oh my god, Georgetown.

At first it looks like Georgetown ED is a disadvantage, then it turns out you're 670 times more likely to get in ED if you're a splitter. There must be a ton of people below both medians throwing EDs at Georgetown.

[20141023]

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[elterrible78]

Hahaha wow yeah, that was really interesting to see the data about GULC as well as UVA. It surprises me that GULC gets as many applicants as it does considering how bad its employment outcomes are compared to the rest of the T14. I guess it is probably some weird combination of people being suckers for location as well as them not thinking they have a chance at the rest of the T14.

I am really looking forward to seeing what you come up with about early applications. I still believe that applying early has a much bigger impact on people's cycles than TLS gives it credit (mainly because of how my own cycle went in spite of my numbers), but I guess the numbers will tell it how it really is.

I will definitely get to it within the next couple of days. Preview: you're going to the school that gives the biggest boost for applying early

[Big Dog]

I'm guessing that Boalt is second best or EA.

[elterrible78]

I'm guessing that Boalt is second best or EA.

Third (and second in the T14). Excellent guess!

[elterrible78]

Just posted on earlier applications to the T-14 if anyone is interested.

http://admissionsbythenumbers.blogspot. ... atter.html

[Humbert Humbert]

Just posted on earlier applications to the T-14 if anyone is interested.

http://admissionsbythenumbers.blogspot. ... atter.html

Thanks for this. I certainly will have my apps complete in September. Curious to see the TLS response to this, since many on here have written the "earlier is better" application phenomenon off as a myth.

[Lavitz]

Love it.

I'm a little surprised NYU is so low though. I expected them to be higher since most of their admits come in the December wave. Oh well.

[elterrible78]

Love it.

I'm a little surprised NYU is so low though. I expected them to be higher since most of their admits come in the December wave. Oh well.

Glad you like it! I haven't looked too hard at the raw numbers, but the whole "big December wave" at NYU thing could be largely mitigated, theoretically, if they just continued to accept the same types of candidates at the same ratios after the wave, rather than tightening up their standards or whatever. It may be that NYU just gets most of their best candidates early. I will try to take a look and eyeball this at some point, but it's just a possible explanation.

[Lavitz]

Re: the ED blog post, we've received a critique.

I certainly respect and appreciate elterrible's work, and I'm not a trained statistician, but given the LSN results below, I have a hard time accepting the claim that applying ED doesn't help splitters at Penn.

(1) RD apps submitted from August to November, last 6 cycles (3.0-3.5 GPA / 170-180 LSAT):



(2) ED apps, last 6 cycles (3.0-3.5 GPA / 170-180 LSAT):



The same pattern holds when looking at just the last three cycles as well.

Thoughts?

[elterrible78]

Hey, at some point I remember seeing on the LSAC website some published admissions index formulas for schools. Can anyone point me in that direction?

[elterrible78]

Re: the ED blog post, we've received a critique.

I certainly respect and appreciate elterrible's work, and I'm not a trained statistician, but given the LSN results below, I have a hard time accepting the claim that applying ED doesn't help splitters at Penn.

(1) RD apps submitted from August to November, last 6 cycles (3.0-3.5 GPA / 170-180 LSAT):



(2) ED apps, last 6 cycles (3.0-3.5 GPA / 170-180 LSAT):



The same pattern holds when looking at just the last three cycles as well.

Thoughts?

I'm on my way out the door, but it almost certainly has to do with the ranges that are being used. If all the ED applicants are at the high end of the LSAT/GPA ranges being selected, than it begs the question of whether it's the ED that's helping or the LSAT/GPA scores? What I've found is that frequently the ED admits, based at least on looking at the numbers, would've been RD admits anyway.

[Lavitz]

Edit: Post below explains it.

[LSATSCORES2012]

So it actually doesn't show up in a simple google search because you have to be logged in to see it. When you log in to LSAC's site, click on the "[Number] received" link just below transcripts, then click on Admission Index.

[20141023]

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[elterrible78]

Re: the ED blog post, we've received a critique.

I certainly respect and appreciate elterrible's work, and I'm not a trained statistician, but given the LSN results below, I have a hard time accepting the claim that applying ED doesn't help splitters at Penn.

(1) RD apps submitted from August to November, last 6 cycles (3.0-3.5 GPA / 170-180 LSAT):



(2) ED apps, last 6 cycles (3.0-3.5 GPA / 170-180 LSAT):



The same pattern holds when looking at just the last three cycles as well.

Thoughts?

I'm on my way out the door, but it almost certainly has to do with the ranges that are being used. If all the ED applicants are at the high end of the LSAT/GPA ranges being selected, than it begs the question of whether it's the ED that's helping or the LSAT/GPA scores? What I've found is that frequently the ED admits, based at least on looking at the numbers, would've been RD admits anyway.

That is what I was about to guess too... there is a huge difference between a 170 and a 180 just like there is a huge difference between a 3.0 and a 3.5, so you'd really need to break the data down more and see which end of the spectrum those ED applicants were at versus where the RD applicants were at.

Also, speaking of LSAC, I kind of mentioned this during our bike ride the other day, but the following is one example of the data that LSAC has for a lot of schools (here is the list of schools). One might be able to use this in tandem with LSN to fill in some of the gaps; the good part about this data is that it "reflects 99% of the total applicant pool; highest LSAT data reported." The only problem is that none of the damn T14 provide this data. The example below is for ASU (I just randomly picked a school):
--ImageRemoved--
(To see if this data is available for a given school, simply click on the name of the school from the list linked above and scroll to the bottom of the page.)

EDIT: By the way, this is the kind of bullshit that the T14 list as an excuse for not posting applicant / admit data:

Since the Georgetown Law Admissions Committee takes into consideration a number of factors in evaluating whether a candidate would be suitable for admission, we cannot provide an applicant profile based solely on GPA and LSAT scores. In making such determinations, the Committee focuses on various aspects of a candidate's background and experience that, in combination with a candidate's academic record and LSAT score, give insight into a candidate's suitability for admission.

That's really interesting data, I'm going to take a closer look at it when I get a chance. And LOL Georgetown.

[elterrible78]

Someone commented on my Earlier Application post yesterday requesting some kind of a chart, so I made one for U of Chicago. If anyone is interested in taking a look, has suggestions on how to improve, wants to see other schools, etc., take a look.

http://admissionsbythenumbers.blogspot. ... chart.html

[20141023]

.

[ms9]

Will you sue me if I take all of this, throw it up on my blog, and source you + link you throughout?

[Dr. Dre]

people keep saying applying late december (after Dec LSAT scores come out) is like shooting yourself in da foot

[ScottRiqui]

So for those LSAC Applicant Profile grids, do they say anywhere what cycle the numbers come from? I looked at the grids for a couple of schools but didn't see it.

[Lavitz]

So for those LSAC Applicant Profile grids, do they say anywhere what cycle the numbers come from? I looked at the grids for a couple of schools but didn't see it.

I would assume right now it's the 2011-2012 cycle. Since the "ABA Law School Data" available on the top right of each page was updated with the C/O 2015 information back in June, I assume the grids at the bottom of each school's page were updated too.

[ManoftheHour]

people keep saying applying late december (after Dec LSAT scores come out) is like shooting yourself in da foot

I applied last January and I performed about right where I expected.

Is it a dumb idea to apply to safety schools with a score you already have and then take the December LSAT, dominate, then apply to the better schools?