Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
Budfox55
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby Budfox55 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:18 am

LMP10 wrote:I have a question about what to put down on my applications. I am originally from a country in SA, but I was adopted into a PR family. I know that I'm Hispanic, but would I be able to put down PR as well? I've always identified with that, but since I'm not technically PR, would it be wrong to check the box?

Thanks for the help.


I believe that if you have always identified as such then it will be fine.

bklynattorney
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Re: Cubans

Postby bklynattorney » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:10 pm

PoopNpants wrote:
bklynattorney wrote:
silver11 wrote:They are considered Hispanic/Latino and don't qualify for URM status. You could write a really good diversity statement and show the school how you can bring diversity to their class, but as far as getting a boost, you wouldn't qualify.


Sure they are considered URM's in that they are Hispanic. No one is going to ask for your country of origin (or your family's) on the college application. All you're putting down is that you're Hispanic. Thus, you'll get the same bump in URM status as other Hispanics.


PRs and Mexicans get the URM boosts, other's aren't regarded as "URMs"
I quoted this exactly from the URM section of TLS

Which groups are considered URMs?

American Indians/Alaskan Natives, African Americans/Blacks, Mexican Americans, and Puerto Ricans are typically considered URM’s. Please note that there is a difference between Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and other types of Hispanics in the admissions process. Additionally, I would like to offer a small caveat to international students, who fall into a separate category of their own.


I know, way late, but I've been busy :D Again, I've yet to see any college/law school application that asks those who check "Hispanic" which country of origin their ancestors come from; at the very least, I never saw such when applying to college and law school. For all intents and purposes, if you check "Hispanic," regardless of where your background is from, you're getting URM treatment.
Last edited by bklynattorney on Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

LionSquall
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby LionSquall » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:15 pm

Hey guys, I have a question.

I've been living my whole life, since I was one years old, in Puerto Rico. My first language is Spanish, I have grown up with the Puerto Rican culture, so I identify myself as Puerto Rican. BUT I wasn't born in Puerto Rico, nor was any of my parents. I was born in NY and raised in PR, my mother was also born in NY and raised in PR, but my grandparents (from mother's side) were both born and raised in PR.

So, do I qualify as URM in terms of applying to Law School? I personally do identify myself as Puerto Rican, obviously, since I've been in PR my whole life, but not sure if I qualify since I wasn't born here nor my parents either. Not sure if being raised in PR (Thus considering myself Puerto Rican), as well as my grandparents being both born and raised in PR, is enough for being considered URM, or do I or my parents need to be born in PR to qualify as such. Also, do they ask for evidence that you're an URM? and is providing evidence that I've lived in PR my whole life enough evidence? or do I need to provide a birth certificate? in which case me nor my parents will show that we're born in PR and thus perhaps not qualifying as URM.

As you can see, I'm more concern in terms of evidence and confused on whether I qualify as URM based on where I was born vs raised. So any help in that regard would help.

Thanks in advance!

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cbbinnyc
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby cbbinnyc » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:36 pm

LionSquall wrote:Hey guys, I have a question.

I've been living my whole life, since I was one years old, in Puerto Rico. My first language is Spanish, I have grown up with the Puerto Rican culture, so I identify myself as Puerto Rican. BUT I wasn't born in Puerto Rico, nor was any of my parents. I was born in NY and raised in PR, my mother was also born in NY and raised in PR, but my grandparents (from mother's side) were both born and raised in PR.

So, do I qualify as URM in terms of applying to Law School? I personally do identify myself as Puerto Rican, obviously, since I've been in PR my whole life, but not sure if I qualify since I wasn't born here nor my parents either. Not sure if being raised in PR (Thus considering myself Puerto Rican), as well as my grandparents being both born and raised in PR, is enough for being considered URM, or do I or my parents need to be born in PR to qualify as such. Also, do they ask for evidence that you're an URM? and is providing evidence that I've lived in PR my whole life enough evidence? or do I need to provide a birth certificate? in which case me nor my parents will show that we're born in PR and thus perhaps not qualifying as URM.

As you can see, I'm more concern in terms of evidence and confused on whether I qualify as URM based on where I was born vs raised. So any help in that regard would help.

Thanks in advance!


You can certainly put down PR. Clearly you identify as PR. Also, regardless, nobody is going to go digging into your records or looking at birth certificates or anything like that.

Whether this makes you a URM is a different question. I think I read somewhere that PR's don't get a boost but I have no idea if that's true.

ETA: If none of your family was born in Puerto Rico and you and your family were actually Danish but just lived in Puerto Rico for the nice weather, that might be a different story. But your grandparents were born in Puerto Rico, which would make you PR even if neither you nor your parents lived in (or even visited) PR.

Gcl52
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby Gcl52 » Sat May 28, 2016 10:00 am

Not really sure if I qualify as a URM. I'm half Mexican. My dad was born and raised in Mexcio. he came to the US to do his Ph. D. I did not grow up disadvantaged per se so I'm not sure that qualifies.

Mark Aldridge
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What all counts as URM? I have Armenian blood.

Postby Mark Aldridge » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:51 pm

I am also very dark complexioned because my parents are from a certain ethnic group in Armenia. As you know, we suffered a genocide and although it's not centric to America, it still put us back quite a bit.

Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?

Barack Obama 2.0
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Re: What all counts as URM? I have Armenian blood.

Postby Barack Obama 2.0 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:09 pm

Mark Aldridge wrote:Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?


You can certainly write about this in your diversity statement. However, you will not qualify as an under represented minority on the basis of your Armenian heritage. To qualify as an URM, you must be: Black, Hispanic, or Native American.

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bk1
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Re: What all counts as URM? I have Armenian blood.

Postby bk1 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:10 pm

Mark Aldridge wrote:I am also very dark complexioned because my parents are from a certain ethnic group in Armenia. As you know, we suffered a genocide and although it's not centric to America, it still put us back quite a bit.

Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?

Feel free to list that you Armenian in any race/ethnic questionnaires. I wouldn't mention the Armenian genocide unless somehow it has directly impacted you.

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CoolHouse
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Biracial URM?

Postby CoolHouse » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:40 pm

Being both white and black, would I not be given the URM boost if I select both white and black when I apply? Would there be a problem down the line if I select just black and it's found out that I am biracial?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:47 pm

Moved to the general thread on this issue.

Take_WhatsYours
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Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:41 pm

Salam my friends,

I am a Coptic Egyptian from the UK who recently became a US citizen. Back in the UK, I am marked as "black" on the race boxes (UK classifies indigenous (non-Arab) North Africans in the same category as black Africans). However, I am not of sub-Saharan African ancestry. Nor am I Nubian.

Now I am applying to law school in the US. May I mark the African American box on the applications? I have been told I can do this by a former Dean of Admissions at a top law school, who is now an admissions consultant. She says that she knows of many North Africans who checked the box; and that while African American means "black African," there is contrary to popular belief no legal definition of "black African." (It can't be limited to sub-Saharan, or Somalis and many Sundanese couldn't check the box, which they do.) I have also emailed the top law schools--specifying that I'm a regular Coptic Egyptian guy, etc--and most of those that responded said "yes, you may check black."

I understand that in your country African American means 'black African' and 'white Africans' are ineligible. But given my physical appearance--no one has ever seen me as white, some see me as black, most see me as brown--and the apparently vague definition of black I am inclined to check the AA box. If I go through with this I would make my heritage clear on each of the application's affirmative action essays.

I look forward to your feedback, my friends. Comments/criticisms would be welcome, but I'm most especially wondering whether any of you are familiar with North Africans who did this on their applications. The threads here mostly say that you can't do it and you'll get expelled from school or disbarred if you do; but this contradicts what I've been told by people in a better position to know.

For your reference, I look basically the same as Tariq Ramadan, the noted Egyptian scholar.

I invite criticism, but let's avoid rehashing bad arguments from old threads. I understand the technical argument that "North African=white in the US" but I think I can discredit that simply by showing my face (again, Google Tariq Ramadan). The "genetic" argument cuts both ways, since genealogical testing shows that Egyptians are in between southern Europeans and "black" Africans. The people who say "Egyptians=Caucasian" should also note that many groups considered black today (Somalis and Northern Sudanese and Ethiopians) are technically Caucasian.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:52 pm

I'd do it since you look at little brown nobody will say shit.

Caligrown
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Caligrown » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:52 pm

Is this a troll post?

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:58 pm

Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?


Ha! Sadly, no. Is it really so risible though? It's somewhat problematic to say I'm "black" but much less so than saying I'm white. "Black African" has no specific meaning under federal law (it is not sub-Saharan, or Somalis and many Sudanese wouldn't qualify).

Moreover, many of these categories are problematic; Indians are labeled "Asian" despite being very genetically different from Chinese. Coptic Egyptians are much closer to Sudanese than Indians are to Chinese, both genetically and phenotypically.

Another thing I've also noticed in surfing TLS is that many of the people pontificating the most about how Egyptians, etc have to check white are white Hispanics, who have an incredibly flimsy (though technically correct) claim to minority status. Case in point is that"Van Winkle" character: Talk about projection!

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Danger Zone
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:03 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?


Ha! Sadly, no. Is it really so risible though? It's somewhat problematic to say I'm "black" but much less so than saying I'm white.

Moreover, many of these categories are problematic; Indians are labeled "Asian" despite being very genetically different from Chinese. Coptic Egyptians are much closer to Sudanese than Indians are to Chinese, both genetically and phenotypically.

Another thing I've also noticed in surfing TLS is that many of the people pontificating the most about how Egyptians, etc have to check white are white Hispanics, who have an incredibly flimsy (though technically correct) claim to minority status. Case in point is that"Van Winkle" character: Talk about projection!

Ya played it too strong on that last line :lol:

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:05 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?


Ha! Sadly, no. Is it really so risible though? It's somewhat problematic to say I'm "black" but much less so than saying I'm white.

Moreover, many of these categories are problematic; Indians are labeled "Asian" despite being very genetically different from Chinese. Coptic Egyptians are much closer to Sudanese than Indians are to Chinese, both genetically and phenotypically.

Another thing I've also noticed in surfing TLS is that many of the people pontificating the most about how Egyptians, etc have to check white are white Hispanics, who have an incredibly flimsy (though technically correct) claim to minority status. Case in point is that"Van Winkle" character: Talk about projection!

Ya played it too strong on that last line :lol:


Trolling--the shot at Van Winkle, white knight of Affirmative Action--and asking for advice isn't mutually exclusive. :P It seems appropriate to have a trolly tone, given the nature of my question.
Last edited by Take_WhatsYours on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Caligrown
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Caligrown » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:12 pm

It is better you also write an addendum. Just copy and paste what you wrote in the original post.

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emkay625
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby emkay625 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:17 pm

Since you are planning on providing a full explanation and context in your diversity essay, I don't see the problem with this. Then schools can basically make their own determination of whether they want to give you the boost or not.

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:56 pm

emkay625 wrote:Since you are planning on providing a full explanation and context in your diversity essay, I don't see the problem with this. Then schools can basically make their own determination of whether they want to give you the boost or not.


I'm going to be very specific on the statement: about being Coptic and not sub-Saharan, and about how I am perceived, etc. I can also mention how, at least on census forms, I am considered black by the UK definitions, and that's the box I've always checked.

I have always considered Northeast Africans--Berbers, Nubians, Ethiopians, Coptic Egyptians, Somalis, etc--to be the same race. (none of these groups consider themselves to be "blacks" or "whites' by the way: they were traditionally labaeled the "hamitic" race by anthropologists, a subset of Caucasians. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic). I can't honestly say I identify with black American culture, but I definitely identify with Northeast African culture and heritage.

rav17
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:10 pm

North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry. You can right about your heritage in your PS and use it to construct a nice narrative about your experiences, you will not be getting the urm boost.

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:11 pm

rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African, even if most AAs are of sub-Saharan African descent.

The meaning of "black" is vague. As I say, North Africans are labeled "black" by the UK government; and traditionally, anthropologists labeled "black" Somalis, Ethiopians, etc as the same race as Egyptians--the "hamitic" race. In any case, "black" is much closer to how I'm perceived than white.
Last edited by Take_WhatsYours on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

youngwarrior
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby youngwarrior » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:14 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


.
Last edited by youngwarrior on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:18 pm

youngwarrior wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.


We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.

The problem that some North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. I may see this better coming from the UK. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.

There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.

rav17
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:25 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
youngwarrior wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.


We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.

The problem that North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.

There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.


I wish you the best of luck in your cycle, however I am betting you will not receive a boost. African/Black as defined by the law school admissions council is someone who has whole or partial subsaharan african ancestry and unless you do, you won't get it. There is a completely different category for North Africans and that is the box you'll have to tick.

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Jordan Catalano
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Jordan Catalano » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:27 pm

Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?


No, this issue is actually pretty big in Middle Eastern/ North African (MENA) communities within the United States.

And, yes, North Africans are categorized as "white" in the United States under federal racial guidelines, the result of a long and complicated history involving early immigration patterns and legal pathways to citizenship.

John Tehranian and Khaled Beydoun are two law professors who write on this history, for anyone who is interested. Or you can entertain yourself with five hours of Census Bureau discussion on this topic here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hocpI5WTayw

To answer OP's question, I think you should feel comfortable marking that you are a racial minority on your application, and then incorporate an explanation of your background into your personal or diversity statement.




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