Debevoise Forum

[Lukash]

I really hope this post doesn't get deleted but I don't really know where else to turn. If there's anyone willing to talk to me via PM I would really appreciate it. Here goes.

I just wrapped up my summer at Debevoise and things started out great. But unlike other SAs, I guess I was really focused on trying to use the summer to find out if Debevoise was the right place for me. I used the summer lunches to ask questions and also reached out to folks in the diversity group. I really felt like folks were candid about alot of things except one area -- race. There is a clear difference in the experience the black associates get at Debevoise in contrast to white associates. And I don't mean "oh there's only a handful of us so we're underrepresented". I mean a clear difference in work, opportunities for growth, firm committee involvement, & even speaking opportunities. I was really blown away and sad because I turned down a offer from a really great firm to come to Debevoise and now I'm basically stuck and will need to go back while eyeing the backdoor. Is there someone that can talk to me about my options -- should I try for 3L OCI? I heard thats a longshot. Should I try to lateral after a year or two? How will that be perceived by the new firm? I can't really say in an interview that I am leaving my old firm is racist -- that makes me look like the problem. I am really torn and feel like I just made a big life mistake. I didn't hear any bad things about Debevoise before. Except this thread makes me now realize perhaps the firm and the online platforms it sponsors, help to avoid bad news by quieting any dissenting remarks. Look at this thread for example: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p9938309

This thread was locked but its actually an off-brand reference to the Debevoise Black List, which ACTUALLY EXISTS. So the Debevoise Black List (DBL) was some Excel chart that was created, which basically charts target termination/departure dates for black associates at the firm, BEFORE any of these individuals had even said they were interested in leaving. The list definitely exists. An associate shared it with me a few weeks ago and it threw me into a tailspin. How did this not get out? Well it kind of did if you consider the thread above. But here's the backstory of how Debevoise squashed the news from getting out? This was confirmed by several associates (black and white): The firm's managing partner asked/forced all the black associates to meet in a conference room so he could explain away the list and the rationale behind it, despite the clear-as-day references on the chart. The associates could really do nothing. But that didn't help things or stop Debevoise apparently because they still forced out many associates according to the schedule on the DBL. Seriously. Starting this Monday, Debevoise will not have any black senior associates either in their corporate or litigation groups. That was according to the DBL timeline. The last remaining senior associate, in corporate, leaves tomorrow and by most accounts, he was forced out. It was really demoralizing to read the news of the associate's upcoming departure since it feels like confirmation of what I feared -- Debevoise brings in black associates for the numbers but then gradually forces them out by not giving them good work or simply asking them to leave.

Did I make a big mistake? What can I do? Please help.

I really hope the moderator doesn't delete my thread.

Thanks!

[SomewhatLearnedHand]

Dude you just got a return offer from a V20. I assume you must have solid grades then. Just go 3L OCI and if you cant land something go to Debevoise for 2 years and lateral.

[Lukash]

Dude you just got a return offer from a V20. I assume you must have solid grades then. Just go 3L OCI and if you cant land something go to Debevoise for 2 years and lateral.

I reached out to my career counselor and she painted a really bad outlook of my chances at 3L OCI. I might just have to give it a try.

[SomewhatLearnedHand]

Dude you just got a return offer from a V20. I assume you must have solid grades then. Just go 3L OCI and if you cant land something go to Debevoise for 2 years and lateral.

I reached out to my career counselor and she painted a really bad outlook of my chances at 3L OCI. I might just have to give it a try.

3L OCI is an absolute crapshoot but its really for people looking to switch firms. With a return offer at a V20, you're in as good shape as anyone else.

[minnbills]

Just a heads up but it is going to be very easy for people at your firm to identify you by your post.

[Lukash]

Dude you just got a return offer from a V20. I assume you must have solid grades then. Just go 3L OCI and if you cant land something go to Debevoise for 2 years and lateral.

I reached out to my career counselor and she painted a really bad outlook of my chances at 3L OCI. I might just have to give it a try.

3L OCI is an absolute crapshoot but its really for people looking to switch firms. With a return offer at a V20, you're in as good shape as anyone else.

Thanks. I'll give it a shot.

[Lukash]

Just a heads up but it is going to be very easy for people at your firm to identify you by your post.

Why? I wasn't the only black summer there.

[Lukash]

Some people contacted me to say it was unwise to create this thread. I think I have enough feedback of what I need to do to address my situation so I dont mind if the thread gets deleted.

[Mokosc]

Dude you just got a return offer from a V20. I assume you must have solid grades then. Just go 3L OCI and if you cant land something go to Debevoise for 2 years and lateral.

This is what I would do.

[Mokosc]

I really hope this post doesn't get deleted but I don't really know where else to turn. If there's anyone willing to talk to me via PM I would really appreciate it. Here goes.

I just wrapped up my summer at Debevoise and things started out great. But unlike other SAs, I guess I was really focused on trying to use the summer to find out if Debevoise was the right place for me. I used the summer lunches to ask questions and also reached out to folks in the diversity group. I really felt like folks were candid about alot of things except one area -- race. There is a clear difference in the experience the black associates get at Debevoise in contrast to white associates. And I don't mean "oh there's only a handful of us so we're underrepresented". I mean a clear difference in work, opportunities for growth, firm committee involvement, & even speaking opportunities. I was really blown away and sad because I turned down a offer from a really great firm to come to Debevoise and now I'm basically stuck and will need to go back while eyeing the backdoor. Is there someone that can talk to me about my options -- should I try for 3L OCI? I heard thats a longshot. Should I try to lateral after a year or two? How will that be perceived by the new firm? I can't really say in an interview that I am leaving my old firm is racist -- that makes me look like the problem. I am really torn and feel like I just made a big life mistake. I didn't hear any bad things about Debevoise before. Except this thread makes me now realize perhaps the firm and the online platforms it sponsors, help to avoid bad news by quieting any dissenting remarks. Look at this thread for example: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p9938309

This thread was locked but its actually an off-brand reference to the Debevoise Black List, which ACTUALLY EXISTS. So the Debevoise Black List (DBL) was some Excel chart that was created, which basically charts target termination/departure dates for black associates at the firm, BEFORE any of these individuals had even said they were interested in leaving. The list definitely exists. An associate shared it with me a few weeks ago and it threw me into a tailspin. How did this not get out? Well it kind of did if you consider the thread above. But here's the backstory of how Debevoise squashed the news from getting out? This was confirmed by several associates (black and white): The firm's managing partner asked/forced all the black associates to meet in a conference room so he could explain away the list and the rationale behind it, despite the clear-as-day references on the chart. The associates could really do nothing. But that didn't help things or stop Debevoise apparently because they still forced out many associates according to the schedule on the DBL. Seriously. Starting this Monday, Debevoise will not have any black senior associates either in their corporate or litigation groups. That was according to the DBL timeline. The last remaining senior associate, in corporate, leaves tomorrow and by most accounts, he was forced out. It was really demoralizing to read the news of the associate's upcoming departure since it feels like confirmation of what I feared -- Debevoise brings in black associates for the numbers but then gradually forces them out by not giving them good work or simply asking them to leave.

Did I make a big mistake? What can I do? Please help.

I really hope the moderator doesn't delete my thread.

Thanks!

Looks like you were trying to expose the firm a bit here. That's your right if youre being truthful but I wouldnt be the one to sacrifice my career over this.

[Lukash]

I really hope this post doesn't get deleted but I don't really know where else to turn. If there's anyone willing to talk to me via PM I would really appreciate it. Here goes.

I just wrapped up my summer at Debevoise and things started out great. But unlike other SAs, I guess I was really focused on trying to use the summer to find out if Debevoise was the right place for me. I used the summer lunches to ask questions and also reached out to folks in the diversity group. I really felt like folks were candid about alot of things except one area -- race. There is a clear difference in the experience the black associates get at Debevoise in contrast to white associates. And I don't mean "oh there's only a handful of us so we're underrepresented". I mean a clear difference in work, opportunities for growth, firm committee involvement, & even speaking opportunities. I was really blown away and sad because I turned down a offer from a really great firm to come to Debevoise and now I'm basically stuck and will need to go back while eyeing the backdoor. Is there someone that can talk to me about my options -- should I try for 3L OCI? I heard thats a longshot. Should I try to lateral after a year or two? How will that be perceived by the new firm? I can't really say in an interview that I am leaving my old firm is racist -- that makes me look like the problem. I am really torn and feel like I just made a big life mistake. I didn't hear any bad things about Debevoise before. Except this thread makes me now realize perhaps the firm and the online platforms it sponsors, help to avoid bad news by quieting any dissenting remarks. Look at this thread for example: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p9938309

This thread was locked but its actually an off-brand reference to the Debevoise Black List, which ACTUALLY EXISTS. So the Debevoise Black List (DBL) was some Excel chart that was created, which basically charts target termination/departure dates for black associates at the firm, BEFORE any of these individuals had even said they were interested in leaving. The list definitely exists. An associate shared it with me a few weeks ago and it threw me into a tailspin. How did this not get out? Well it kind of did if you consider the thread above. But here's the backstory of how Debevoise squashed the news from getting out? This was confirmed by several associates (black and white): The firm's managing partner asked/forced all the black associates to meet in a conference room so he could explain away the list and the rationale behind it, despite the clear-as-day references on the chart. The associates could really do nothing. But that didn't help things or stop Debevoise apparently because they still forced out many associates according to the schedule on the DBL. Seriously. Starting this Monday, Debevoise will not have any black senior associates either in their corporate or litigation groups. That was according to the DBL timeline. The last remaining senior associate, in corporate, leaves tomorrow and by most accounts, he was forced out. It was really demoralizing to read the news of the associate's upcoming departure since it feels like confirmation of what I feared -- Debevoise brings in black associates for the numbers but then gradually forces them out by not giving them good work or simply asking them to leave.

Did I make a big mistake? What can I do? Please help.

I really hope the moderator doesn't delete my thread.

Thanks!

Looks like you were trying to expose the firm a bit here. That's your right if youre being truthful but I wouldnt be the one to sacrifice my career over this.

I wasn't trying to expose the firm. I had tried finding help through another URM social media forum and got blasted and peppered with questions because I refused to say the firm I was talking about. I came to realize it was hard for people to give me quality advice if they dont know what I am referring to.

[Mokosc]

I really hope this post doesn't get deleted but I don't really know where else to turn. If there's anyone willing to talk to me via PM I would really appreciate it. Here goes.

I just wrapped up my summer at Debevoise and things started out great. But unlike other SAs, I guess I was really focused on trying to use the summer to find out if Debevoise was the right place for me. I used the summer lunches to ask questions and also reached out to folks in the diversity group. I really felt like folks were candid about alot of things except one area -- race. There is a clear difference in the experience the black associates get at Debevoise in contrast to white associates. And I don't mean "oh there's only a handful of us so we're underrepresented". I mean a clear difference in work, opportunities for growth, firm committee involvement, & even speaking opportunities. I was really blown away and sad because I turned down a offer from a really great firm to come to Debevoise and now I'm basically stuck and will need to go back while eyeing the backdoor. Is there someone that can talk to me about my options -- should I try for 3L OCI? I heard thats a longshot. Should I try to lateral after a year or two? How will that be perceived by the new firm? I can't really say in an interview that I am leaving my old firm is racist -- that makes me look like the problem. I am really torn and feel like I just made a big life mistake. I didn't hear any bad things about Debevoise before. Except this thread makes me now realize perhaps the firm and the online platforms it sponsors, help to avoid bad news by quieting any dissenting remarks. Look at this thread for example: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p9938309

This thread was locked but its actually an off-brand reference to the Debevoise Black List, which ACTUALLY EXISTS. So the Debevoise Black List (DBL) was some Excel chart that was created, which basically charts target termination/departure dates for black associates at the firm, BEFORE any of these individuals had even said they were interested in leaving. The list definitely exists. An associate shared it with me a few weeks ago and it threw me into a tailspin. How did this not get out? Well it kind of did if you consider the thread above. But here's the backstory of how Debevoise squashed the news from getting out? This was confirmed by several associates (black and white): The firm's managing partner asked/forced all the black associates to meet in a conference room so he could explain away the list and the rationale behind it, despite the clear-as-day references on the chart. The associates could really do nothing. But that didn't help things or stop Debevoise apparently because they still forced out many associates according to the schedule on the DBL. Seriously. Starting this Monday, Debevoise will not have any black senior associates either in their corporate or litigation groups. That was according to the DBL timeline. The last remaining senior associate, in corporate, leaves tomorrow and by most accounts, he was forced out. It was really demoralizing to read the news of the associate's upcoming departure since it feels like confirmation of what I feared -- Debevoise brings in black associates for the numbers but then gradually forces them out by not giving them good work or simply asking them to leave.

Did I make a big mistake? What can I do? Please help.

I really hope the moderator doesn't delete my thread.

Thanks!

Looks like you were trying to expose the firm a bit here. That's your right if youre being truthful but I wouldnt be the one to sacrifice my career over this.

I wasn't trying to expose the firm. I had tried finding help through another URM social media forum and got blasted and peppered with questions because I refused to say the firm I was talking about. I came to realize it was hard for people to give me quality advice if they dont know what I am referring to.

Not calling you out for exposing the firm, just saying be careful of being identified since you are still just an upstart in this field. They will try to Id you. You are not the first to make this claim about Debevoise. With what I know about the place I honestly wouldnt go there if I was African American. Stellar firm with great reput. but not a place for certain lawyers. They are known for demoralizing African American associates by not giving them substantive work as they become more senior. Youll be doing doc review and diligence as a 6th year while your white colleagues are running trials and deals. Its just how it is. They have no desire to change the model and it has worked well for them. Look out for yourself and dont try to change the culture of a 100 year old firm. I would shoot for 3L OCI or go back there and give it a decent chance but send applications the moment you see openings somewhere else. The exit options and the Debevoise name on your resume is helpful so it can still work out. Goodluck.

[Lukash]

I really hope this post doesn't get deleted but I don't really know where else to turn. If there's anyone willing to talk to me via PM I would really appreciate it. Here goes.

I just wrapped up my summer at Debevoise and things started out great. But unlike other SAs, I guess I was really focused on trying to use the summer to find out if Debevoise was the right place for me. I used the summer lunches to ask questions and also reached out to folks in the diversity group. I really felt like folks were candid about alot of things except one area -- race. There is a clear difference in the experience the black associates get at Debevoise in contrast to white associates. And I don't mean "oh there's only a handful of us so we're underrepresented". I mean a clear difference in work, opportunities for growth, firm committee involvement, & even speaking opportunities. I was really blown away and sad because I turned down a offer from a really great firm to come to Debevoise and now I'm basically stuck and will need to go back while eyeing the backdoor. Is there someone that can talk to me about my options -- should I try for 3L OCI? I heard thats a longshot. Should I try to lateral after a year or two? How will that be perceived by the new firm? I can't really say in an interview that I am leaving my old firm is racist -- that makes me look like the problem. I am really torn and feel like I just made a big life mistake. I didn't hear any bad things about Debevoise before. Except this thread makes me now realize perhaps the firm and the online platforms it sponsors, help to avoid bad news by quieting any dissenting remarks. Look at this thread for example: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... e#p9938309

This thread was locked but its actually an off-brand reference to the Debevoise Black List, which ACTUALLY EXISTS. So the Debevoise Black List (DBL) was some Excel chart that was created, which basically charts target termination/departure dates for black associates at the firm, BEFORE any of these individuals had even said they were interested in leaving. The list definitely exists. An associate shared it with me a few weeks ago and it threw me into a tailspin. How did this not get out? Well it kind of did if you consider the thread above. But here's the backstory of how Debevoise squashed the news from getting out? This was confirmed by several associates (black and white): The firm's managing partner asked/forced all the black associates to meet in a conference room so he could explain away the list and the rationale behind it, despite the clear-as-day references on the chart. The associates could really do nothing. But that didn't help things or stop Debevoise apparently because they still forced out many associates according to the schedule on the DBL. Seriously. Starting this Monday, Debevoise will not have any black senior associates either in their corporate or litigation groups. That was according to the DBL timeline. The last remaining senior associate, in corporate, leaves tomorrow and by most accounts, he was forced out. It was really demoralizing to read the news of the associate's upcoming departure since it feels like confirmation of what I feared -- Debevoise brings in black associates for the numbers but then gradually forces them out by not giving them good work or simply asking them to leave.

Did I make a big mistake? What can I do? Please help.

I really hope the moderator doesn't delete my thread.

Thanks!

Looks like you were trying to expose the firm a bit here. That's your right if youre being truthful but I wouldnt be the one to sacrifice my career over this.

I wasn't trying to expose the firm. I had tried finding help through another URM social media forum and got blasted and peppered with questions because I refused to say the firm I was talking about. I came to realize it was hard for people to give me quality advice if they dont know what I am referring to.

Not calling you out for exposing the firm, just saying be careful of being identified since you are still just an upstart in this field. They will try to Id you. You are not the first to make this claim about Debevoise. With what I know about the place I honestly wouldnt go there if I was African American. Stellar firm with great reput. but not a place for certain lawyers. They are known for demoralizing African American associates by not giving them substantive work as they become more senior. Youll be doing doc review and diligence as a 6th year while your white colleagues are running trials and deals. Its just how it is. They have no desire to change the model and it has worked well for them. Look out for yourself and dont try to change the culture of a 100 year old firm. I would shoot for 3L OCI or go back there and give it a decent chance but send applications the moment you see openings somewhere else. The exit options and the Debevoise name on your resume is helpful so it can still work out. Goodluck.

You have a PM. Thank you sooo much.

[uncle_rico]

A little late to recover now, but you'll likely be outed for this and receive a cold offer at best. It's likely not that hard for the firm to figure out who this is and this looks very bad on them regardless of its authenticity

[nealric]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

[uncle_rico]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

[Lukash]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

I did not say I wanted it deleted. I was indifferent to it. Deleting it doesnt “help this summer” it helps the firm. Bury another one. You cant shut all of us up

[nealric]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

I did not say I wanted it deleted. I was indifferent to it. Deleting it doesnt “help this summer” it helps the firm. Bury another one. You cant shut all of us up

That's why I wasn't going to delete without a direct request. Shoot me a PM if you decide you want anything deleted.

[uncle_rico]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

I did not say I wanted it deleted. I was indifferent to it. Deleting it doesnt “help this summer” it helps the firm. Bury another one. You cant shut all of us up

I'm a minority that is not at Debevoise and recognizes that you'll likely face repercussions for something like this unfortunately. You've mentioned that you've spoken with other associates about this and it's very possible that one of them may not be as willing to protect that conversation if it gets out. I just figured it would do you best to have this removed, but oh well

[Npret]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

I did not say I wanted it deleted. I was indifferent to it. Deleting it doesnt “help this summer” it helps the firm. Bury another one. You cant shut all of us up

You’re making a mistake. You should delete this thread. It will still help you to delete it rather than leaving it up. It’s about protecting yourself not shutting anyone up.

You need an offer from this firm.

You may be ambivalent now, but you are reacting emotionally, not using prudent judgement about your future.

[Ap585]

Hey! I tried to dm you, but tls wouldn’t let me cause my account is new. Don’t let people freak you out too much about 3L OCI - the economy is solid and I assume you are in New York, there are often firms looking for 3L hires. I’m so sorry this happened to you. It goes without saying that this is not acceptable law firm behavior. Have you tried reaching out to your law schools black law students association? You might want to reach out to them as a resource, I’m sure they have an alumni network that would be happy to help out.

[Mokosc]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

I did not say I wanted it deleted. I was indifferent to it. Deleting it doesnt “help this summer” it helps the firm. Bury another one. You cant shut all of us up

I'm a minority that is not at Debevoise and recognizes that you'll likely face repercussions for something like this unfortunately. You've mentioned that you've spoken with other associates about this and it's very possible that one of them may not be as willing to protect that conversation if it gets out. I just figured it would do you best to have this removed, but oh well

You might or might not be a minority. But I would wager that you're affiliated with Debevoise.

[Npret]

Mods are happy to delete this thread if OP wants, but I'd ask for a direct request.

I'd recommend the mods delete this based on the rumblings I've already heard. People have likely screenshotted it already but deleting it might help this summer a little bit. OP already said that they'd be fine having the thread deleted

I did not say I wanted it deleted. I was indifferent to it. Deleting it doesnt “help this summer” it helps the firm. Bury another one. You cant shut all of us up

I'm a minority that is not at Debevoise and recognizes that you'll likely face repercussions for something like this unfortunately. You've mentioned that you've spoken with other associates about this and it's very possible that one of them may not be as willing to protect that conversation if it gets out. I just figured it would do you best to have this removed, but oh well

You might or might not be a minority. But I would wager that you're affiliated with Debevoise.

Why?
You don’t understand that publishing identifiable information has always been a bad idea?
Biglaw in NYC might seem like a big, anonymous world, but it’s not.
There are other more productive avenues to address issues of discrimination without tanking your career on a public forum.
OP said they wanted advice, but primarily exposed the firm. It is not going to benefit OP in any way to have posted this information here, nor will it make any impact on discrimination occurring at law firms.

[Mokosc]

OP said they wanted advice, but primarily exposed the firm. It is not going to benefit OP in any way to have posted this information here, nor will it make any impact on discrimination occurring at law firms.

It might impact racial discrimination at this particular firm. I was told that Debevoise met with the summer associate class yesterday and acknowledged the blacklist is authentic. Debevoise's MP apologized to the entire summer class. MPs dont get out of their beds on a Friday to speak to an entire summer class for no reason. I think OP should be very careful not to get caught. What this OP did took guts and exposed Debevoise. What the MP also did took balls. Most firms would never admit something like this. But Debevoise might still have some explaining to do. Their African American associates should also get an apology.

[Mokosc]

Hey! I tried to dm you, but tls wouldn’t let me cause my account is new. Don’t let people freak you out too much about 3L OCI - the economy is solid and I assume you are in New York, there are often firms looking for 3L hires. I’m so sorry this happened to you. It goes without saying that this is not acceptable law firm behavior. Have you tried reaching out to your law schools black law students association? You might want to reach out to them as a resource, I’m sure they have an alumni network that would be happy to help out.

OP:

Do not identify yourself or talk to any black white green or red lawyers about this!!!!! Black student group is NOT going to solve this issue for you. It will only potentially get back to your firm after student outrage starts and a name is needed as evidence of racial discrmination. Dont be that guy. My honest advice if there is an offer from Debevoise, is to return to the firm and then find your way out unnoticed.