Question about HowardU

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flat-fifth
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Question about HowardU

Postby flat-fifth » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:59 pm

After reading some negative posts about HU, I searched through the Vault Law 100 and discovered that HU grads are present in many of the top firms. The commonality among associates and partners is Law Review. I recognize that making it onto a journal is very difficult (top 10%?), but it appears that HU does provide a pathway to BigLaw.

Is it irrational to assume that this is a feasible option? Is it equally as difficult to achieve top 30% at a T14 as it is to achieve top 10% at HU?

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Nova
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Nova » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:05 am

Howard's overall job stats blow

Howard wrote:47.7% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=howard

If you want biglaw you shouldn't go to a school that places less than 15% in it.

Also, at least during my cycle, they had a top 15% 50% stipulation to keep your scholarship. If you lose that and have to pay sticker, youre screwed.


*edited for this cycle
Last edited by Nova on Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Nova
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Nova » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:06 am

flat-fifth wrote:Is it equally as difficult to achieve top 30% at a T14 as it is to achieve top 10% at HU?

this is an impossible question to answer

BigZuck
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:31 am

If you want big law, go to a T14. Definitely don't go to a TTT like Howard.

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toshiroh
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby toshiroh » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:23 pm

If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

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BullShitWithBravado
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby BullShitWithBravado » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:39 pm

Are you a URM? If you're not, that could also significantly negatively impact your odds of securing big law out of Howard.

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Nova
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Nova » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:50 pm

toshiroh wrote:If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

URMs are in a great position to get into good regional schools (Alabama/Florida/Georgia/LSU/Arizona/etc.) with good scholarships without predatory stipulations. Attending any TTT with predatory scholarship stipulations and under 50% placement in legal jobs is a bad move.

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toshiroh
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby toshiroh » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:21 pm

Nova wrote:
toshiroh wrote:If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

URMs are in a great position to get into good regional schools (Alabama/Florida/Georgia/LSU/Arizona/etc.) with good scholarships without predatory stipulations. Attending any TTT with predatory scholarship stipulations and under 50% placement in legal jobs is a bad move.

I agree, but I meant if it's likely that he's just going to end up at a TTT, HU would be a better option IMO

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PepperJack
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby PepperJack » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:33 pm

My understanding is t-14 transfers average above median. This can be they work harder (those with jobs don't have to worry about doubts about swimming with big fish). However, there is clearly something the top 10 percent at any school have that makes it difficult to say you'll be one of them. They are the actual special snowflakes. It would be easier to get median at Howard but the top ten percent would prob compete anywhere in the country.

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PepperJack
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby PepperJack » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:36 pm

toshiroh wrote:
Nova wrote:
toshiroh wrote:If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

URMs are in a great position to get into good regional schools (Alabama/Florida/Georgia/LSU/Arizona/etc.) with good scholarships without predatory stipulations. Attending any TTT with predatory scholarship stipulations and under 50% placement in legal jobs is a bad move.

I agree, but I meant if it's likely that he's just going to end up at a TTT, HU would be a better option IMO

I think some top firms like Skadden may be going to Howard's OCI and not similarly ranked schools with the intent to hire black students on law review so Howard has more value than other shitholes. However, if you were top third at a t-14 and black you are golden.

VyingDestiny
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby VyingDestiny » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:09 pm

IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

rad lulz
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:23 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

VyingDestiny
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby VyingDestiny » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:03 pm

rad lulz wrote:
VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

Howard is a shit school with bad job prospects

The stats bear this out

That's pretty much it


#126: Howard -- 13.9% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#126 Drexel -- 5.8% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#41: UMD -- 5% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#31: UNC -- 13.7% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#21: GW -- 22.9% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw

Howard, given it's ranking, gives a disproportionate shot at Biglaw. The stats bear this out.

BigZuck
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby BigZuck » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:14 pm

VyingDestiny wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

Howard is a shit school with bad job prospects

The stats bear this out

That's pretty much it


#126: Howard -- 13.9% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#126 Drexel -- 5.8% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#41: UMD -- 5% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#31: UNC -- 13.7% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw
#21: GW -- 22.9% of 2012 Graduates in Biglaw

Howard, given it's ranking, gives a disproportionate shot at Biglaw. The stats bear this out.


And the University of Houston gives one an even better shot at big law than Howard. Who cares? It doesn't matter, no school outside of the T14 should be attended if your goal is big law.

When you look at its placement statistics and its scholarship tactics, you see that Howard is a TTT.

rad lulz
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:16 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PepperJack
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby PepperJack » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:56 pm

VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

This is a real thing to consider. 50 percent of black law students are in the bottom ten percent, yet black students who graded onto law review at non-top 14s are discriminated against. These students have proven data they're better than most top 14 black associates. I think because of the TTT stink in the 10 percent chance you win you still kinda lose logic, you should just retake. If you're lazy with the foundation of your career how can you expect to outgun the gunners to get top 10 percent? Is work ethic a light switch?

flat-fifth
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby flat-fifth » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:08 pm

Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.

rad lulz
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby rad lulz » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:12 pm

flat-fifth wrote:Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.

Don't go to ANY law school in which you need to be at the top of the class to do well in the job market

VyingDestiny
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby VyingDestiny » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:37 pm

flat-fifth wrote:Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.


The thing is, at certain schools in the T14, that "need" to be at the top of the class doesn't exist. People on this site vastly underestimate the affirmative action hiring process, and just how far firms will dip to strengthen their diversity numbers. For more information on this, look up Richard Sander, and don't read his stuff for the conclusions, but just to understand the reality of law school performance for blacks. It is not a pretty picture, and yet, from certain angles, you would really think the jobs are raining. While of course, I can only speak to my experience and what I've witnessed, reality and popular wisdom are pretty damn far apart.

Another thing is, you have to distinguish between two things: 'the' job market, and the 'biglaw' job market. Howard does pretty well in the latter, considering all other factors, but as others have said, its job placement as a whole leaves much to be desired. Your first post referred to biglaw specifically, which is why I referenced it, but legal hiring as a whole is a different ballgame.

There are certain things I am just uncomfortable saying on here, but if you want more information, or just want to talk on the phone, hit me up via PM. I would hope its obvious, but I am also a black male, and I went through the same process of trying to make sense of what were my options and what were my chances given those options. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but hopefully I can share some helpful information I've picked up.

Best of luck to you, regardless.

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Nova
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Nova » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:34 pm

flat-fifth wrote:Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable.

So what? IUBs placement is shit...

californiauser
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby californiauser » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:40 pm

VyingDestiny wrote:
flat-fifth wrote:Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.


The thing is, at certain schools in the T14, that "need" to be at the top of the class doesn't exist. People on this site vastly underestimate the affirmative action hiring process, and just how far firms will dip to strengthen their diversity numbers. For more information on this, look up Richard Sander, and don't read his stuff for the conclusions, but just to understand the reality of law school performance for blacks. It is not a pretty picture, and yet, from certain angles, you would really think the jobs are raining. While of course, I can only speak to my experience and what I've witnessed, reality and popular wisdom are pretty damn far apart.

Another thing is, you have to distinguish between two things: 'the' job market, and the 'biglaw' job market. Howard does pretty well in the latter, considering all other factors, but as others have said, its job placement as a whole leaves much to be desired. Your first post referred to biglaw specifically, which is why I referenced it, but legal hiring as a whole is a different ballgame.

There are certain things I am just uncomfortable saying on here, but if you want more information, or just want to talk on the phone, hit me up via PM. I would hope its obvious, but I am also a black male, and I went through the same process of trying to make sense of what were my options and what were my chances given those options. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but hopefully I can share some helpful information I've picked up.

Best of luck to you, regardless.


15% in big law is pretty well? I consider Northwestern and Cornell pretty good at placing into big law at around 50%. 15% is not pretty well by any metric. Just because it does better than its TTT peer schools doesn't mean you should attend for a legit shot at big law.

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Nova
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Nova » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:43 pm

VyingDestiny wrote:1. IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

2. I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach.

3. Do not bank on being in the top 15%,

1. There are SO MANY schools outside the T14 that place MUCH BETTER than Howard that do not have TERRIBLE stipulations on their scholarship.

2. Less than half the class will ever practice law. What else do you need to know?

3. But their scholarship stipulations require you to be in the top 15% 50% or else you are going to be paying 100k over 2L & 3L in tuition and cost of living. If you don't get biglaw, youll be in big financial trouble.
Last edited by Nova on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cats2013
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby cats2013 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Nova wrote:
VyingDestiny wrote:1. IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

2. I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach.

3. Do not bank on being in the top 15%,

1. There are SO MANY schools outside the T14 that place MUCH BETTER than Howard that do not have TERRIBLE stipulations on their scholarship.

2. Less than half the class will ever practice law. What else do you need to know?

3. But their scholarship stipulations require you to be in the top 15% or else you are going to be paying 100k over 2L & 3L in tuition and cost of living. If you don't get biglaw, youll be in big financial trouble.


Whats the difference between employer score 47.7% and the 75% that get full time jobs 9 months after graduation?

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Nova
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Nova » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:50 pm

cats2013 wrote:Whats the difference between employer score 47.7% and the 75% that get full time jobs 9 months after graduation?

full time, long term, JD required jobs


any full time job

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Futuregohan14
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Re: Question about HowardU

Postby Futuregohan14 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:22 pm

VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.


Image

Right off the top of my head:

-Vanderbilt
-UT-Austin
-USC
-GW




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