AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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JayJones78
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AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:59 pm

Looking for some advice,

older (in my 30s) AA male URM
took the LSAT 3 times: 148,143,151 (Dec,June,Oct) and I am not allowed to take it again until dec '13 (tried to appeal, was denied). My LSAC gpa is 3.4

At this point, I really do not want to wait another year, mainly because I am really unsure of how better my score will get the 4th time around. I invested incredible time and effort in studying for oct and the 151 was a huge blow. For me to wait a another full year is just too much. I know the general rule on TLS is retake retake retake, but in my case I don't think it'll do a lot of good.

I did a lot of research on LSN and although the future is not bright, I saw some rays of hope there. It appears that Tulane, UNC, Cardozo and U of Min can be worked in, and I even saw some WL admit and admits to Vandy, W&L and a few other T30 schools.

My story is pretty unique (and too long to get into here) I have very good letters of rec and I know I can build a good application. What I'm wondering is will that be a consideration with the 151? I know a 151 URM doesn't equal a 151 non-URM, but I wanted to hear thoughts from people here or even (if there are any) people with similar numbers and GPAs and how it turned out for them. I know apps are down all around, but still.

thank you.

EDIT: I'll add that I have an LSAC fee waiver, so I am fine applying all over since the investment on my part is much smaller.
Last edited by JayJones78 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Grazzhoppa
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Re: 151 AA URM (cannot retake)

Postby Grazzhoppa » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:03 pm

I still think you should retake but here are URM's with similar numbers from last cycle.

http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=1112

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: 151 AA URM (cannot retake)

Postby WhiteyCakes » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:04 pm

Nowhere worth going

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JayJones78
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Re: 151 AA URM (cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:08 pm

Grazzhoppa wrote:I still think you should retake but here are URM's with similar numbers from last cycle.

http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=1112


Believe me I "know" all these people. I spent many days looking over applicants from the last 3 cycles to see what I am facing.
I just don't have it in me to wait another year to take an exam that I truly don't know if I can do better in.

I'll also add that I have an LSAC fee waiver so I am not paying for any of my applications

ndel21
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Re: 151 AA URM (cannot retake)

Postby ndel21 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:47 pm

Hey,

Dont give up, everyone here can tell you something different, i applied with a 154 and a 3.39 in 2009. I didnt go to law school but decided to get an mba, im re applying and i already got into decent school and wiating on a lot more. It all depends on how you present your application, have a strong personal statement, explain why you might of gotten low lsats, and just be hopeful. look at school above the top 50 too look at pitt thats a good school, depaul, and others along those lines. If you want i can tell you a bit more ab my app in a PM just shoot me one.

Good luck

rad lulz
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Re: 151 AA URM (cannot retake)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:12 pm

ndel21 wrote:Hey,

Dont give up, everyone here can tell you something different, i applied with a 154 and a 3.39 in 2009. I didnt go to law school but decided to get an mba, im re applying and i already got into decent school and wiating on a lot more. It all depends on how you present your application, have a strong personal statement, explain why you might of gotten low lsats, and just be hopeful. look at school above the top 50 too look at pitt thats a good school, depaul, and others along those lines. If you want i can tell you a bit more ab my app in a PM just shoot me one.

Good luck

Pitt and DePaul blow if you actually want to get a job.

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BlaqBella
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:39 am

Apply to the following:

Vanderbilt
George Washington
College of William & Mary
American
Howard
Tulane*
Minnesota*
UNC*

*Keep in mind that attending these schools may limit you to only practicing law within the school's region.

- Write "Why X" law schools for Vanderbilt, GW and William & Mary.

- Start applying for scholarships as soon as possible to help mitigate costs to attend one of the aforementioned at sticker price.

- Remember, the greatest risk in life is not taking one. Put your all into your applications and see who takes a bite. Good luck!

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JayJones78
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:59 am

Thanks! I am wondering what you think about W&L and Wash U?

Also, since I have a fee waiver and am okay with spending report fees (nothing compared to app AND repot fees) so im going to blanket T14 just in some off chance oll catch an adcoms eye. I am wondering if there is any way in the world this will happen? I am fully in understanding that it's a flat NO bit still wonder if people here heard or saw miricales such as Cornell or NU for example. Or even UT? My GPA is fair and I have a huge up hill my second and third year (graduated in three years).

Thanks!

BlaqBella wrote:Apply to the following:

Vanderbilt
George Washington
College of William & Mary
American
Howard
Tulane*
Minnesota*
UNC*

*Keep in mind that attending these schools may limit you to only practicing law within the school's region.

- Write "Why X" law schools for Vanderbilt, GW and William & Mary.

- Start applying for scholarships as soon as possible to help mitigate costs to attend one of the aforementioned at sticker price.

- Remember, the greatest risk in life is not taking one. Put your all into your applications and see who takes a bite. Good luck!

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BlaqBella
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:10 am

JayJones78 wrote:Thanks! I am wondering what you think about W&L and Wash U?

Also, since I have a fee waiver and am okay with spending report fees (nothing compared to app AND repot fees) so im going to blanket T14 just in some off chance oll catch an adcoms eye. I am wondering if there is any way in the world this will happen? I am fully in understanding that it's a flat NO bit still wonder if people here heard or saw miricales such as Cornell or NU for example. Or even UT? My GPA is fair and I have a huge up hill my second and third year (graduated in three years).

Thanks!


Miracles can and do happen, even for the lower T14 ranks. Throw a prayer and a hail mary at Cornell, NU and UT but keep it real with yourself if you do get a rejection. I don't think I would advise blanketing the T14 but if you have fee waivers/money to splurge, sure, why not. I only say this because AA male applicants and their results are so unpredictable, even with a 150+ LSAT.

Have you been doing anything interesting these past few years you've been removed from undergrad? Seeing that you're an older applicant, bring that experience to light in your applications. I am also a non-traditional applicant and plan to highlight my work experiences as part of my application package.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:12 am

I suppose there is no downside in applying this year although try to get fee waivers if you are going to blanket the T14 and apply to all those other schools. But come back here once you have gotten your acceptances and aid packages and ask again. I am guessing that the right course for you will be to wait and retake, but it doesn't hurt to see what happens.

You mentioned that LSAC denied your request to test again - did you have the backing of a law school in making that request? From what I have heard, if a school will back your desire to retest, it is easier to get another shot. Someone should correct me if I am wrong because I just remember reading that off-hand.

ETA: There is another interesting thread floating around here about AAs and the LSAT that shows that a 151 is about 84th percentile for AAs - one 9-point standard deviation from the 142 mean, and one standard deviation above the mean is 84th percentile, assuming a normal distribution. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with your score just yet. But it shows that you don't have as far to go as it might seem: a 160 is T14 territory since two standard deviations above the mean gets you to about the 97.5th percentile of AAs, again assuming a normal distribution.

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JayJones78
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:32 am

somewhatwayward wrote:I suppose there is no downside in applying this year although try to get fee waivers if you are going to blanket the T14 and apply to all those other schools. But come back here once you have gotten your acceptances and aid packages and ask again. I am guessing that the right course for you will be to wait and retake, but it doesn't hurt to see what happens.

You mentioned that LSAC denied your request to test again - did you have the backing of a law school in making that request? From what I have heard, if a school will back your desire to retest, it is easier to get another shot. Someone should correct me if I am wrong because I just remember reading that off-hand.

ETA: There is another interesting thread floating around here about AAs and the LSAT that shows that a 151 is about 84th percentile for AAs - one 9-point standard deviation from the 142 mean, and one standard deviation above the mean is 84th percentile, assuming a normal distribution. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with your score just yet. But it shows that you don't have as far to go as it might seem: a 160 is T14 territory since two standard deviations above the mean gets you to about the 97.5th percentile of AAs, again assuming a normal distribution.


I have an LSAC fee waiver so I am not paying for any of my apps, which is why I'm blanketing the T14 and many other schools for the off chance someone will like me (aka a Sally Fields moment).
Re:4th retake. Last year LSAC changed the 4th retake rule from what you mentioned (basically getting a school that would 'sponsor' you for the 4th LSAT) and they are now doing it by themselves. From what Iv heard they deny pretty much everyone.

This issue deserves a tread of itself. I don't get why people who go to med and B schools or any other grad school for that matter can take their MCATs GMAT and GREs as many times as they want but the LSAC has this limit. I just don't get it.

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dowu
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby dowu » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:58 am

JayJones78 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:I suppose there is no downside in applying this year although try to get fee waivers if you are going to blanket the T14 and apply to all those other schools. But come back here once you have gotten your acceptances and aid packages and ask again. I am guessing that the right course for you will be to wait and retake, but it doesn't hurt to see what happens.

You mentioned that LSAC denied your request to test again - did you have the backing of a law school in making that request? From what I have heard, if a school will back your desire to retest, it is easier to get another shot. Someone should correct me if I am wrong because I just remember reading that off-hand.

ETA: There is another interesting thread floating around here about AAs and the LSAT that shows that a 151 is about 84th percentile for AAs - one 9-point standard deviation from the 142 mean, and one standard deviation above the mean is 84th percentile, assuming a normal distribution. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with your score just yet. But it shows that you don't have as far to go as it might seem: a 160 is T14 territory since two standard deviations above the mean gets you to about the 97.5th percentile of AAs, again assuming a normal distribution.


I have an LSAC fee waiver so I am not paying for any of my apps, which is why I'm blanketing the T14 and many other schools for the off chance someone will like me (aka a Sally Fields moment).
Re:4th retake. Last year LSAC changed the 4th retake rule from what you mentioned (basically getting a school that would 'sponsor' you for the 4th LSAT) and they are now doing it by themselves. From what Iv heard they deny pretty much everyone.

This issue deserves a tread of itself. I don't get why people who go to med and B schools or any other grad school for that matter can take their MCATs GMAT and GREs as many times as they want but the LSAC has this limit. I just don't get it.

Nah man, it's really not as big of an issue as you think. Three times should be enough for most people; unfortunately, you're the exception.

In this case, you should get a job and work, and read dense material for the next year or so. Then, when you're eligible to take it again, study up.

I know that you got the LSAC fee waiver and you're afraid that you won't get it next time around. You missed this window of opportunity to apply for free; it happens. As for now, if you really feel like you "have to apply", then you should blanket over every school that you would like to go to and hope someone bites with scholarship money. Applying to most TT, TTT, and TTTTs should be out of the question; it's a waste of time and energy. Further, there are close to zero schools that are worth attending at sticker price.

Good luck!

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JayJones78
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:14 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:I suppose there is no downside in applying this year although try to get fee waivers if you are going to blanket the T14 and apply to all those other schools. But come back here once you have gotten your acceptances and aid packages and ask again. I am guessing that the right course for you will be to wait and retake, but it doesn't hurt to see what happens.

You mentioned that LSAC denied your request to test again - did you have the backing of a law school in making that request? From what I have heard, if a school will back your desire to retest, it is easier to get another shot. Someone should correct me if I am wrong because I just remember reading that off-hand.

ETA: There is another interesting thread floating around here about AAs and the LSAT that shows that a 151 is about 84th percentile for AAs - one 9-point standard deviation from the 142 mean, and one standard deviation above the mean is 84th percentile, assuming a normal distribution. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with your score just yet. But it shows that you don't have as far to go as it might seem: a 160 is T14 territory since two standard deviations above the mean gets you to about the 97.5th percentile of AAs, again assuming a normal distribution.


I have an LSAC fee waiver so I am not paying for any of my apps, which is why I'm blanketing the T14 and many other schools for the off chance someone will like me (aka a Sally Fields moment).
Re:4th retake. Last year LSAC changed the 4th retake rule from what you mentioned (basically getting a school that would 'sponsor' you for the 4th LSAT) and they are now doing it by themselves. From what Iv heard they deny pretty much everyone.

This issue deserves a tread of itself. I don't get why people who go to med and B schools or any other grad school for that matter can take their MCATs GMAT and GREs as many times as they want but the LSAC has this limit. I just don't get it.

Nah man, it's really not as big of an issue as you think. Three times should be enough for most people; unfortunately, you're the exception.

In this case, you should get a job and work, and read dense material for the next year or so. Then, when you're eligible to take it again, study up.

I know that you got the LSAC fee waiver and you're afraid that you won't get it next time around. You missed this window of opportunity to apply for free; it happens. As for now, if you really feel like you "have to apply", then you should blanket over every school that you would like to go to and hope someone bites with scholarship money. Applying to most TT, TTT, and TTTTs should be out of the question; it's a waste of time and energy. Further, there are close to zero schools that are worth attending at sticker price.

Good luck!


Thanks for the advice. However I don't agree with your remarks on the LSAT. Why is it okay for my friend who is applying to med school to take the MCATs as many time as he sees fit until he gets the score he wants and it's different for law school applicants? You at it's enough, for others it may not. And regardless even if someone got a 172 and thinks he can a 175 why should he denied it when a perso who goes to B or Med school can take their entrance exams again and again? I know it's off topic but it bothers me.

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JayJones78
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:25 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:I suppose there is no downside in applying this year although try to get fee waivers if you are going to blanket the T14 and apply to all those other schools. But come back here once you have gotten your acceptances and aid packages and ask again. I am guessing that the right course for you will be to wait and retake, but it doesn't hurt to see what happens.

You mentioned that LSAC denied your request to test again - did you have the backing of a law school in making that request? From what I have heard, if a school will back your desire to retest, it is easier to get another shot. Someone should correct me if I am wrong because I just remember reading that off-hand.

ETA: There is another interesting thread floating around here about AAs and the LSAT that shows that a 151 is about 84th percentile for AAs - one 9-point standard deviation from the 142 mean, and one standard deviation above the mean is 84th percentile, assuming a normal distribution. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with your score just yet. But it shows that you don't have as far to go as it might seem: a 160 is T14 territory since two standard deviations above the mean gets you to about the 97.5th percentile of AAs, again assuming a normal distribution.


Your ETA is extremely interesting. Do you have the link for the thread by any chance?
I wonder if the lower number of LSAT takers and applicants will also go into play here.

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JayJones78
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:08 pm

Wanted to bump this thread up to see if there are any more thoughts? Working hard on my PS and hoping to submit in the next few days.


Thanks!

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ck3
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby ck3 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:57 pm

I don't know what state you live in but you may want to consider a part-time program to mitigate the loan amount if you don't get a scholarship anywhere. For example, if you were in Metro Atlanta, the GA State's part-time program might be viable for you. The in state tuition is cheap even if you pay sticker and the cost of living in Atlanta is low, low, low so you don't have to work so hard and so much just to make ends meet.

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JayJones78
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby JayJones78 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:13 pm

ck3 wrote:I don't know what state you live in but you may want to consider a part-time program to mitigate the loan amount if you don't get a scholarship anywhere. For example, if you were in Metro Atlanta, the GA State's part-time program might be viable for you. The in state tuition is cheap even if you pay sticker and the cost of living in Atlanta is low, low, low so you don't have to work so hard and so much just to make ends meet.


I'm in a state I don't wish to stay in..

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danitt
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby danitt » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:01 pm

Maybe Howard and then perhaps you can transfer?

rad lulz
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby rad lulz » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:20 pm

danitt wrote:Maybe Howard and then perhaps you can transfer?

Don't go to law school w the intent of transferring; Jaysus

Athlone McGinnis
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby Athlone McGinnis » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:53 am

JayJones78 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:I suppose there is no downside in applying this year although try to get fee waivers if you are going to blanket the T14 and apply to all those other schools. But come back here once you have gotten your acceptances and aid packages and ask again. I am guessing that the right course for you will be to wait and retake, but it doesn't hurt to see what happens.

You mentioned that LSAC denied your request to test again - did you have the backing of a law school in making that request? From what I have heard, if a school will back your desire to retest, it is easier to get another shot. Someone should correct me if I am wrong because I just remember reading that off-hand.

ETA: There is another interesting thread floating around here about AAs and the LSAT that shows that a 151 is about 84th percentile for AAs - one 9-point standard deviation from the 142 mean, and one standard deviation above the mean is 84th percentile, assuming a normal distribution. That doesn't mean you should be satisfied with your score just yet. But it shows that you don't have as far to go as it might seem: a 160 is T14 territory since two standard deviations above the mean gets you to about the 97.5th percentile of AAs, again assuming a normal distribution.


Your ETA is extremely interesting. Do you have the link for the thread by any chance?
I wonder if the lower number of LSAT takers and applicants will also go into play here.


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=195443

mrbrock
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby mrbrock » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:23 pm

Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

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francesfarmer
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:28 pm

mrbrock wrote:Honestly, I find your initial statement ironic. First, I have 3.6 gpa and 151 LSAT. I applied to exactly 12 schools this fall and heard back from 10 so far. And all were acceptances. Full tuition scholarship offers from Akron, Toledo, FAMU, JM Atl, Ave Maria, Charlotte...OKC law=$20k/yr, Mercer unv= $20k/yr., Full tuition plus room and board @ Southwestern. Full tuition plus 15k/yr with option to start in Jan @ J.M chi. only two outstanding apps are my top 2 choices: Howard and Rutgers Newark...I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them! this is why I stuck with the low lsat and wrote a letter of explanation. As for the tier of schools, why beg and cry your way just to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate? I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

OP is potentially looking at an entirely different class of schools than you are because of his URM status. He is not "begging or crying to be treated as some sort of affirmative action candidate." Why would you advise him to go to schools with horrible employment prospects when he could potentially go somewhere much better?

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Nova
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby Nova » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

mrbrock wrote:I believe you're applying to the wrong tier schools, plus you've taken the lsat too many times, with 2 they'll usually take the higher but with three or more or test taken in consecutive dates, they'll average them!

WRONG
I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.

Guess what... your logic is ttterrible.

Odds are you wont renew your scholarship after the first year. Much less be in the top 10%.

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BlaqBella
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:21 am

Nova wrote:
mrbrock wrote:I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.


Guess what... your logic is ttterrible.

Odds are you wont renew your scholarship after the first year. Much less be in the top 10%.


No need to be insulting, Nova. Not all of us are gunners like most of TLS. Some are completely satisfied with getting full scholarships to attend any law school, job prospects be damned.

rad lulz
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Re: AA male URM 151(cannot retake)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:23 am

BlaqBella wrote:
Nova wrote:
mrbrock wrote:I'd rather go where I won't collect debt and have a strong shot at finishing in the top 10%.


Guess what... your logic is ttterrible.

Odds are you wont renew your scholarship after the first year. Much less be in the top 10%.


No need to be insulting, Nova. Not all of us are gunners like most of TLS. Some are completely satisfied with getting full scholarships to attend any law school, job prospects be damned.

That's retarded.




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