HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

[soshen]

Hello! I am a 2L at NCCU and I'm glad I ran across your post.

What kind of law would you like to practice after law school? And where would you like to live? I think reflecting on those two questions will help you make your decision.

I chose NCCU (contrary to what some may think, there are a lot of us that chose Central over higher ranking schools) because I want to do public interest work after graduation. I've never had a desire to work at a big firm. I am also interested in remaining in NC. It was important that I select a school that is close to my family and wouldn't leave me with an enormous amount of student loans. I got everything I wanted with NCCU and I am very happy with my decision.

The curve is indeed brutal. But it's doable. The rationale behind the curve is that since NCCU accepts students who have lower LSAT scores, the tough curve is a weed out process to ensure that the school is graduating students who are hard workers and are more likely to pass the bar. A lot of the people who are dismissed after 1L year just didn't do what they were supposed to do. You are given an opportunity and it's up to you to sink or swim.

Besides the low cost of tuition, I think that the biggest benefits to going to Central are the clinics and the faculty. Of course some of the professors are a$$holes, but there are some wonderful faculty members at NCCU. They excelled in their areas of specialty and they do everything they can to whip you into shape. One of my favorite professors commutes from California every single week to teach us because she is so committed to her students and her desire to work at an HBCU.

The clinics (be sure to check out the website) are invaluable. You get the opportunity to dive in, represent clients, and go to trial. I know a lot of schools have externship programs but NCCU has a ton of established clinics that are a blessing to the surrounding community in need of affordable legal services.

In thinking about some of the jobs last year's graduates are currently in, it's a pretty mixed bag. Like most schools, the top students got offers at large firms. The young lady who was at the top of her class is at Womble Carlyle. The top 2 in my class will likely follow in her footsteps, as they have been summering there. A few students got judicial clerkships. A lot of times people forget that there are so many levels of judges. It is not necessary to go to Harvard to clerk with a local judge. A few folks are doing public defender work. I can think of two placements at the IRS as tax attorneys. One guy is working as a magistrate. Some went on to do LLMs. There are a lot of people in my class in the JD/MBA program and want to do more nontraditional legal jobs. There is also a JD/MLS joint degree program.

Ignore anyone who tells you that NCCU grads are constantly competing against Duke law students for jobs. I don't know anyone who goes to Duke that intends to stay in North Carolina. They come, get that top tier degree, and then head to bigger markets like NY and DC or back to their home states.

It's really all about networking, taking advantage of guest speakers and panels, and so on to land jobs. One thing I learned quickly is that NCCU grads look out for other NCCU grads. They aim to hire Central grads and push to get other NCCU alumni in their offices and agencies. This push helped land me an amazing internship this summer and it's an internship that many on this forum would have told me would be impossible since I don't attend a top tier school.

There is a large Greek presence at Central, both in the students and faculty. It's fun and there is some friendly competition from time to time. We are actually having a stroll off competition in two weeks for bragging rights.

I guess to sum it up (and because I am seriously procrastinating reading for Tax) I recommend that you talk to people who actually go to the schools you are considering. This is a board for future attorneys, so there is bound to be quite a bit of hot air! If you tell me what kind of law you are interested in I will put you in contact with some of my classmates with similar interests.

Also feel free to PM me any questions you have.

[mettasutta]

Ignore anyone who tells you that NCCU grads are constantly competing against Duke law students for jobs. I don't know anyone who goes to Duke that intends to stay in North Carolina. They come, get that top tier degree, and then head to bigger markets like NY and DC or back to their home states.

True, most Duke grads head for larger markets like NYC, DC, etc. But what about stronger schools in the region like UNC and Wake?

[AztecaRex]

OP, just out of curiosity, why is it so important to you that you attend a historically black law school? I know the elitism on this board can get annoying at times, but several posters have brought up good points about just studying hard for the LSAT and getting into a law school with better employment stats--is going to a HBCU more important to you than raising your chances at getting a good job? And if so, there have been countless posters who start with low, low LSATs and who raise their scores to where you'd have a good chance at getting into, say, Howard.

[alexonfyre]

Did it ever occur to anyone that this might be a troll thread?

[AztecaRex]

Did it ever occur to anyone that this might be a troll thread?

I actually strongly considered this, but everyone seemed to take the OP seriously and I didn't bother looking at his post history, so I figured he was legit.

[alexonfyre]

Did it ever occur to anyone that this might be a troll thread?

I actually strongly considered this, but everyone seemed to take the OP seriously and I didn't bother looking at his post history, so I figured he was legit.

Considering that he is quick to call people racist, and uses analogies to the NBA and Hip-hop/R&B music to make horribly unsound arguments against conventional TLS wisdom, it seems to me that OP is pretending to be an offensive black stereotype to get people riled up. I don't believe for one minute that any educated, self-respecting black man would say any of these things in a public law school forum and be serious.

[southernsnapp]

I stopped reading around the beginning of page 2, but I’d pick NCCU over FAMU. I live in NC, and NCCU is well respected here. I’ve met many lawyers and judges who attended there. The downside (or upside, depends on you) is when you tell people you’re going to law school they see your skin and say “Oh where, Central?” and in my case (I’m going to Cornell in the fall) “Why not Central, isn’t it one of the top schools in the country?”. Also, the location puts you in a good position to find a job as long around here as you aren’t set on a really high salary. Unfortunately, It’s in a less than desirable area. I’ve had a friend get robbed numerous times in the student parking lot. But there are lots of good restaurants, great parties, malls, and things to do nearby. Cost of living in the Triangle can be very cheap and the quality of life down here is good.

[BlaqBella]

Hello! I am a 2L at NCCU and I'm glad I ran across your post.

What kind of law would you like to practice after law school? And where would you like to live? I think reflecting on those two questions will help you make your decision.

I chose NCCU (contrary to what some may think, there are a lot of us that chose Central over higher ranking schools) because I want to do public interest work after graduation. I've never had a desire to work at a big firm. I am also interested in remaining in NC. It was important that I select a school that is close to my family and wouldn't leave me with an enormous amount of student loans. I got everything I wanted with NCCU and I am very happy with my decision.

The curve is indeed brutal. But it's doable. The rationale behind the curve is that since NCCU accepts students who have lower LSAT scores, the tough curve is a weed out process to ensure that the school is graduating students who are hard workers and are more likely to pass the bar. A lot of the people who are dismissed after 1L year just didn't do what they were supposed to do. You are given an opportunity and it's up to you to sink or swim.

Besides the low cost of tuition, I think that the biggest benefits to going to Central are the clinics and the faculty. Of course some of the professors are a$$holes, but there are some wonderful faculty members at NCCU. They excelled in their areas of specialty and they do everything they can to whip you into shape. One of my favorite professors commutes from California every single week to teach us because she is so committed to her students and her desire to work at an HBCU.

The clinics (be sure to check out the website) are invaluable. You get the opportunity to dive in, represent clients, and go to trial. I know a lot of schools have externship programs but NCCU has a ton of established clinics that are a blessing to the surrounding community in need of affordable legal services.

In thinking about some of the jobs last year's graduates are currently in, it's a pretty mixed bag. Like most schools, the top students got offers at large firms. The young lady who was at the top of her class is at Womble Carlyle. The top 2 in my class will likely follow in her footsteps, as they have been summering there. A few students got judicial clerkships. A lot of times people forget that there are so many levels of judges. It is not necessary to go to Harvard to clerk with a local judge. A few folks are doing public defender work. I can think of two placements at the IRS as tax attorneys. One guy is working as a magistrate. Some went on to do LLMs. There are a lot of people in my class in the JD/MBA program and want to do more nontraditional legal jobs. There is also a JD/MLS joint degree program.

Ignore anyone who tells you that NCCU grads are constantly competing against Duke law students for jobs. I don't know anyone who goes to Duke that intends to stay in North Carolina. They come, get that top tier degree, and then head to bigger markets like NY and DC or back to their home states.

It's really all about networking, taking advantage of guest speakers and panels, and so on to land jobs. One thing I learned quickly is that NCCU grads look out for other NCCU grads. They aim to hire Central grads and push to get other NCCU alumni in their offices and agencies. This push helped land me an amazing internship this summer and it's an internship that many on this forum would have told me would be impossible since I don't attend a top tier school.

There is a large Greek presence at Central, both in the students and faculty. It's fun and there is some friendly competition from time to time. We are actually having a stroll off competition in two weeks for bragging rights.

I guess to sum it up (and because I am seriously procrastinating reading for Tax) I recommend that you talk to people who actually go to the schools you are considering. This is a board for future attorneys, so there is bound to be quite a bit of hot air! If you tell me what kind of law you are interested in I will put you in contact with some of my classmates with similar interests.

Also feel free to PM me any questions you have.

Best response in the thread because this individual is actually a law student attending one of the aforementioned.

Thanks for sharing, soshen!

[BlaqBella]

Honestly OP, where are you going with this? You received your comments and advice on your personal decision making process, now move along. There's no need to have a drawn out discussion about HBCUs and the number of lawyers they produce. Do you. And whenever others need help/advice then they can come here with their individual predicaments and receive individual guidance

End of Story.

Why do I have to be the one to move along? I created this page lol! I want one of these guys to comment on people they know from these institutions. You already have, but I want to hear other viewpoints too.

And of course this discussion is needed, and I'm disappointed you personally don't think that it is. How else will potential black law students find the info they need? TLS is the perfect place to find that info. If you take away the total of blacks graduating from black law schools, how many black lawyers would be produced every year? You should understand this alarming stat, and want to do something about it my fellow Divine Nine brother. Stop trying to take the easy way out by saying this isn't worth discussing just because we ain't talking Harvard. We have both already said we KNOW success stories from these schools...

Honestly bro, if it bothers you that much, you can always end the story by closing the book. Or in your case clicking a different page lol.

LOL. I agree.

[thenupes]

Did it ever occur to anyone that this might be a troll thread?

I actually strongly considered this, but everyone seemed to take the OP seriously and I didn't bother looking at his post history, so I figured he was legit.

Considering that he is quick to call people racist, and uses analogies to the NBA and Hip-hop/R&B music to make horribly unsound arguments against conventional TLS wisdom, it seems to me that OP is pretending to be an offensive black stereotype to get people riled up. I don't believe for one minute that any educated, self-respecting black man would say any of these things in a public law school forum and be serious.

...I'm serious, so believe it guy. Your post didn't bring any substance to the discussion, but I hope you feel better now that you got your feelings off your chest. Thanks, lol.

I never called anyone racist. I just said that maybe some people don't know much about HBCU's. I'm looking for info on them, not people telling me everything wrong with them. Anyway, I ran into the following statistic recently while researching black law schools.

"From Fall 2005 through Fall 2009, even though students at the seven HBLSs represented only an
average of 2.7% of entering classes, those students represented 16.3% of Black/African-American
entering students."

The schools I am asking about are relevant. I don't think anyone can argue that after seeing those numbers. I'm only attempting to get the info out there for individuals like myself who are considering attending one.

Thank you all for all the responses and information on NCCU. I really appreciate it!

[Grizz]

I'm looking for info on them, not people telling me everything wrong with them.

Negative attributes don't count as information. Got it.

[Mase]

I'm looking for info on them, not people telling me everything wrong with them.

Negative attributes don't count as information. Got it.

Here comes the cavalry (radlaw) !!! Nupes I am not interested in these schools but I haven't gotten a lot of info from this thread. There is not much more to say.

[org_chemist]

Did it ever occur to anyone that this might be a troll thread?

I actually strongly considered this, but everyone seemed to take the OP seriously and I didn't bother looking at his post history, so I figured he was legit.

Considering that he is quick to call people racist, and uses analogies to the NBA and Hip-hop/R&B music to make horribly unsound arguments against conventional TLS wisdom, it seems to me that OP is pretending to be an offensive black stereotype to get people riled up. I don't believe for one minute that any educated, self-respecting black man would say any of these things in a public law school forum and be serious.

...I'm serious, so believe it guy. Your post didn't bring any substance to the discussion, but I hope you feel better now that you got your feelings off your chest. Thanks, lol.

I never called anyone racist. I just said that maybe some people don't know much about HBCU's. I'm looking for info on them, not people telling me everything wrong with them. Anyway, I ran into the following statistic recently while researching black law schools.

"From Fall 2005 through Fall 2009, even though students at the seven HBLSs represented only an
average of 2.7% of entering classes, those students represented 16.3% of Black/African-American
entering students."

The schools I am asking about are relevant. I don't think anyone can argue that after seeing those numbers. I'm only attempting to get the info out there for individuals like myself who are considering attending one.

Thank you all for all the responses and information on NCCU. I really appreciate it!

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the point of pushing the HBCU's as your main deciding factor for law school? I'm black, and I don't understand why any educated black person would only consider HBCUs if job opportunities are to be hand at higher ranked law schools.

[yngblkgifted]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the point of pushing the HBCU's as your main deciding factor for law school? I'm black, and I don't understand why any educated black person would only consider HBCUs if job opportunities are to be hand at higher ranked law schools.

+ 1,000,000. And trust me, it's not your ignorance that needs pardoning in this thread.

[thenupes]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the point of pushing the HBCU's as your main deciding factor for law school? I'm black, and I don't understand why any educated black person would only consider HBCUs if job opportunities are to be hand at higher ranked law schools.

+ 1,000,000. And trust me, it's not your ignorance that needs pardoning in this thread.

All I did was state facts. HBLSs have successfully educated black lawyers for many years. I never said it was my main deciding factor. However, I will not listen to anyone who says the schools are complete garbage, and that they only produce failures because that is simply not the case. That is the reason I presented the stats. What is your problem with the question? Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion? Do you personally know people who have attended either school? If not keep it moving!

[bk1]

Wait, did the text change from red to orange or am I going colorblind?

[thenupes]

Wait, did the text change from red to orange or am I going colorblind?

Lol! Oops! Here we go!

[cartercl]

Wait, did the text change from red to orange or am I going colorblind?

Ahh... I believe you are correct. OP, you're slipping.

[alexonfyre]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the point of pushing the HBCU's as your main deciding factor for law school? I'm black, and I don't understand why any educated black person would only consider HBCUs if job opportunities are to be hand at higher ranked law schools.

+ 1,000,000. And trust me, it's not your ignorance that needs pardoning in this thread.

All I did was state facts. HBLSs have successfully educated black lawyers for many years. I never said it was my main deciding factor. However, I will not listen to anyone who says the schools are complete garbage, and that they only produce failures because that is simply not the case. That is the reason I presented the stats. What is your problem with the question? Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion? Do you personally know people who have attended either school? If not keep it moving!

No one said they only produce failures, only that most of the graduates do not get very good jobs. Regardless of the ethnicity or the students, those are poor law schools. Does this mean that every graduate who comes out will be a bad lawyer? No. However, arguing that simply because a school produces some good lawyers means that it is a good law school is like saying that just because some people win by betting 32-red, that roulette is a good bet to make, or that because some kids have made it to the NBA from DIII schools means that they are good schools to play for if you want to go pro.
As a prospective law student you have to look at how the average student at a school does after graduation, not the top 10%, because there is a 90% chance that you won't be one of them.
I hope this is making sense. If HBCU is important, go to Howard, if Howard isn't an option, then you need to retake the LSAT.

[thenupes]

Thanks for your opinion.

[Aberzombie1892]

I would argue that all HBCU's offer similar prospects outside of FAMU, and so the conversation should be HBCU's vs. better ranked schools.

Minorities are generally not in the top 15% of a law school class. Sh*t happens. This is important because all HBCUs except for Howard are at least 30% non-minority. When you add the two factors together you see that "majorities" generally make up the top 15% of the other HBCUs. Employers know this and these top placing "majorities" are not treated any differently than had they attended any other T3/T4 school.

Howard is around 90% minority, and thus a large portion of the top 15% of the class is composed of minority students. Employers know this and are attracted to it because they can hire minority law students that graduated Summa Cum Laude from law school (and other latin honors). Therefore, Howard law school appears to have far better job prospects than it actually does. If NCCU, FAMU, or Texas Southern were 90% minority, their employment outcomes would be on par with Howard (except for FAMU, for other reasons).

Please don't think employers will not go deeper into the class for minority students from well regarded schools. In fact, in both my personal experience and from what I have heard, employers love minority students that go to high profile schools. Of course this is true for firms, but this is true for government and other job areas as well.

Thus, your job prospects won't differ dramatically among the various HBCUs (except for FAMU). However, if you get into a high profile law school, I would suggest you go there instead - if you can do so affordably.

[thenupes]

I would argue that all HBCU's offer similar prospects outside of FAMU, and so the conversation should be HBCU's vs. better ranked schools.

Thanks for presenting your argument. Do you personally know anyone who has ever attended a HBLS? If so what did they say about their experience?

Also, today I ran into an article online from a website specifically for black lawyers. I wanted to share part of an article with all you future lawyers, and hear your opinions on it. I believe its relevant to the discussion, so this is open for everyone. Again thank you all for the feedback whether it was positive or negative!


"We often hear that black perspective law students rely on US News when choosing which law school to attend. This is a HUGE mistake. Frankly, it’s a mistake for all students, but it is especially damning for future black lawyers. To begin with, many of the things that US News takes into account are anachronistic. What does it matter how many volumes are in the law school library when research is increasingly done online. A whopping 40% of the ranking score is based on the subjective measure of a law school’s reputation. Perhaps something could be gained from a reporting of the number of judges, general counsel, and biglaw partners hailing from particular law schools since it is reasonable to assume that these distinguished alumni would favor graduates of their law schools, but that’s NOT how the figure is calculated. US News takes the “opinion” of people from OTHER law schools...

The biggest misconception lies in prospective law students’ belief that a direct correlation exists between a graduate’s law school rank and her first job’s salary and prestige. With few exceptions, this is not the case. Many T-14 graduates find themselves unemployed or in low-paying legal jobs following law school. There are few jobs more prestigious than a federal appeals court clerkship, and according to Law Clerk Addict, a graduate of the perennially fourth tier Southern University Law School clerked for a 5th Circuit judge last year. Only two employers are obsessed with law school rankings—the largest 250 (out of over 40,000) law firms and law school faculty...''

It goes on to speak on factors black students should consider when choosing a law school. I found it interesting because it uses Southern as an example. Southern is also a HBLS. Anyway, it can be found here: http://www.onbeingablacklawyer.com/?page_id=219

[alexonfyre]

I would argue that all HBCU's offer similar prospects outside of FAMU, and so the conversation should be HBCU's vs. better ranked schools.

Thanks for presenting your argument. Do you personally know anyone who has ever attended a HBLS? If so what did they say about their experience?

Also, today I ran into an article online from a website specifically for black lawyers. I wanted to share part of an article with all you future lawyers, and hear your opinions on it. I believe its relevant to the discussion, so this is open for everyone. Again thank you all for the feedback whether it was positive or negative!


"We often hear that black perspective law students rely on US News when choosing which law school to attend. This is a HUGE mistake. Frankly, it’s a mistake for all students, but it is especially damning for future black lawyers. To begin with, many of the things that US News takes into account are anachronistic. What does it matter how many volumes are in the law school library when research is increasingly done online. A whopping 40% of the ranking score is based on the subjective measure of a law school’s reputation. Perhaps something could be gained from a reporting of the number of judges, general counsel, and biglaw partners hailing from particular law schools since it is reasonable to assume that these distinguished alumni would favor graduates of their law schools, but that’s NOT how the figure is calculated. US News takes the “opinion” of people from OTHER law schools...

The biggest misconception lies in prospective law students’ belief that a direct correlation exists between a graduate’s law school rank and her first job’s salary and prestige. With few exceptions, this is not the case. Many T-14 graduates find themselves unemployed or in low-paying legal jobs following law school. There are few jobs more prestigious than a federal appeals court clerkship, and according to Law Clerk Addict, a graduate of the perennially fourth tier Southern University Law School clerked for a 5th Circuit judge last year. Only two employers are obsessed with law school rankings—the largest 250 (out of over 40,000) law firms and law school faculty...''

It goes on to speak on factors black students should consider when choosing a law school. I found it interesting because it uses Southern as an example. Southern is also a HBLS. Anyway, it can be found here: http://www.onbeingablacklawyer.com/?page_id=219

That is an absolutely fair assessment of the USN rankings, however you will find that most serious debate on here is comparing the employment and salary statistics from USN, NLJ and Vault. To the Southern grad who got a sweet Article 3 clerkship, that is fantastic, however I should direct you to the 95 such clerkships that Harvard produced last year? Or even the 6 from tulane? Or the 4 from LSU? Or the 4 from Loyola? This is exactly the roulette argument I mentioned before. Southern as a TTTT gives you a .13% (I believe the last clerk from the one mentioned was 2-3 classes ago, 750 students) chance of becoming a clerk, or rather a 99.87% chance of not making it, vs, going to LSU (in the same city and state, for nearly the same price and very easy to get into,) where you have closer to a 2% chance or an "elite" institution where you have over a 15% chance. LSU in not great, but I would still take 2% over .13%.
I agree that under a microscope the rankings are close to meaningless (i.e. what is the difference between #30 and #31, or even #30 and #47,) however in the broader sense, the "tier" system is a pretty solid way to generalize schools: HYS, CCN, BMVP, DCNG, T20, Tier 1, Tier 2, TTT, TTTT; schools within these Tiers see each other as peers, and we can make fairly accurate assessments of career prospects and opportunities by using them. Attempting to argue against this based on the race of the applicant is absolutely absurd. The idea that the black community needs "its own law schools" is equally perplexing. Knowing the history of HBCUs, as I am sure you do, you understand that now that there are black deans and black professors and the URM boost and the ability to focus your legal education in the areas of Civil Rights and Social Justice, the necessity of having a racially divided education system is a completely outmoded.
For undergraduate education, I think HBCU's serve a valuable purpose in helping young black intellect find purpose for and amongst their community, however, in terms of professional schools this is no longer needed and a person should be looking for the school which affords them the highest chance of having a great career, not just *any* chance.

Riddle me this:
Black Male A goes to Southern and graduates median, manages to get a job making 60k doing doc review in Baton Rouge (This is one of the best outcomes for median at Southern, assuming no connections).
Black Female B goes to Tulane and graduates median, gets an 80k job as an attorney at a midlaw firm in New Orleans and does 50 hours of pro bono work a year advocating labor issues for underprivileged black workers in Southeast Louisiana.

Which one is doing more for the black community?

(PS I know both of these people, though I have changed their locations and obviously removed their names)

As for Law Firms being "obsessed" with rankings, if that is true then shouldn't it make sense to care about where your school is ranked? Would it not be in your best interest to impress one of the best 250 (out of over 40,000) firms in the country?

[Drrbar]

Thank you for this post.

I am currently considering NCCU and this post gave me many questions to think about from all of the dofferent prospectives offered.

[LSAT>LDAC]

Label a shredder FAMU, and write NCCU on your oven. Now take all the money out of your pocket and whichever one you can put all your money in is the school for you.