URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
legalized
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:45 am

URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Mon May 03, 2010 10:10 am

True or not? Why or why not?

I like the logic. If URMs are bumrushing them, they have less incentive to admit yet another one, or to give you a good financial aid package if they do.

Discuss!

User avatar
webbylu87
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:07 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby webbylu87 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:13 am

Just out of curiosity, what's an example of a school not popular with URMs?

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JG Hall » Mon May 03, 2010 10:15 am

.
Last edited by JG Hall on Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jdhonest
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby jdhonest » Mon May 03, 2010 10:17 am

1. Assumes that URM would want to go to a school that is not popular with URMs. Arguably, the reason it's not popular with URMs would lead them not to want to go there.
2. Assumes that URM collectively have general preferences for particular schools. Arguably, geography and career goals are just as important for URMs as other students.
3. Assumes that admission to ANY school with a generous financial aid package would attract an URM (see 1) regardless of the quality and nature of the school.
4. Assumes that URMs are being shut out of institutions that are "popular with URMs" (see 2) and must or should find an alternative place to study.

I could add a few more, but I think you get the point. The question is too broad and assumes too much.

User avatar
jrobby6
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:25 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby jrobby6 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:18 am

To webby: Virtually every school except Howard.

jdhonest
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby jdhonest » Mon May 03, 2010 10:21 am

jrobby6 wrote:To webby: Virtually every school except Howard.


No. How popular is Howard with Latino students?

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby miamiman » Mon May 03, 2010 10:21 am

I might add that, at least among the TOP law schools, there are reasons why certain schools don't have -- relative to their peers -- comparable URM enrollment. (UMich, UVA, come to mind)




And it isn't all self-selection.

yabbadabbado
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby yabbadabbado » Mon May 03, 2010 10:22 am

Some schools do strive to recruit more minorities, particularly schools that are not on the coasts or in major cities. Some of these schools will also give out unconditional 3 year full scholarships to URMs who attend.

If you are looking to attend one of these schools on a full ride, my advice would be to start calling schools that are off the beaten path. Tell the admissions office that you are a URM and you're thinking about applying to their school. Ask for URM student group contact info so you can talk to current URM students there.

User avatar
jrobby6
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:25 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby jrobby6 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:24 am

I was being general and slightly sarcastic. Howard tech. is very 'popular' with URMs in whatever way you want to define that. Any other school? Not so much.

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JG Hall » Mon May 03, 2010 10:28 am

.
Last edited by JG Hall on Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jdhonest
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby jdhonest » Mon May 03, 2010 10:32 am

jrobby6 wrote:I was being general and slightly sarcastic. Howard tech. is very 'popular' with URMs in whatever way you want to define that. Any other school? Not so much.


No, it's popular with Black URMs. Not with Latino URMs. They're separate groups.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby miamiman » Mon May 03, 2010 10:37 am

JG Hall wrote:
miamiman wrote:I might add that, at least among the TOP law schools, there are reasons why certain schools don't have -- relative to their peers -- comparable URM enrollment. (UMich, UVA, come to mind)




And it isn't all self-selection.


Except enrollment numbers aren't the same as application numbers. You could have the same number (or even group) of URM students apply to 2 different schools, and acceptance/scholarships will be based on the quality and quantity of the applicant pool, and might not bear resemblance to the final percentage of URM students that end up enrolling. Thus, schools that don't have high attendance rates for URMs could still have the same quantity and quality of applicants that a school that ends up with a high attendance rate receives, thus (even with a self-correction based on historical trends at the school) any advantage would be marginal at best, considering the fluidity of other deciding factors (rank, economy, etc.).



no offense but your reply is incoherent.

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JG Hall » Mon May 03, 2010 10:41 am

.
Last edited by JG Hall on Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yabbadabbado
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby yabbadabbado » Mon May 03, 2010 10:41 am

JG,

While what you are saying makes sense, it is a basically a hypothetical mental exercise. As someone who went to an "off the beaten path" law school for a year before transferring I can tell you that minority enrollment numbers are low at many schools because few minorities apply. The URMs that were at this school, particularly AAs and Hispanics, applied because they heard the school was generous with fin aid and they offered a free application via LSAC. They all got unconditional full rides. That would not have happened at a big city/coastal school that got way more applicants.

And for schools that get a bunch of highly qualified URM applicants but have trouble getting them to attend, those schools will make scholly offers to URMs based on what %tage they think will end up attending.

Basically, there is an advantage in URM admissions and scholarships at many of these schools compared to big city/coastal schools. For URMs that don't mind attending school in the places where these schools are located (probably practicing in those places after LS as well) this strategy makes sense.

User avatar
JG Hall
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JG Hall » Mon May 03, 2010 10:46 am

.
Last edited by JG Hall on Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MoS
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:59 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby MoS » Mon May 03, 2010 10:49 am

Some schools try really hard to recruit minorities because their geographic location doesn't have enough for administrators to say they are diverse. A lack of diversity is viewed bad from and educational point and it doesn't look very good in general. Places like Iowa and Wisconsin come to mind. They have special scholarships set aside for minorities. While many schools, including t14 schools admit minorities with lower numbers, usually LSAT. Which is justifiable because the LSAT score has been shown to be poor predictor minority 1L performance, particularly for african americans and native americans. That also means merit based scholarships have a lower LSAT thresh hold for minorities at those same schools. But as far as "popular" goes, I don't know that means. If it means URMs are intentionally not going there, you might check out their reasoning before applying. Ultimately you shouldn't apply anywhere you wouldn't be happy going for 3 years.

onetimeonly95
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby onetimeonly95 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:59 am

jdhonest wrote:
jrobby6 wrote:I was being general and slightly sarcastic. Howard tech. is very 'popular' with URMs in whatever way you want to define that. Any other school? Not so much.


No, it's popular with Black URMs. Not with Latino URMs. They're separate groups.


Define popular. I'm inclined to believe that Howard recruits just as many Latino URM groups as well as many other schools around the country. If anyone can provide stats then I would be curious. If Howard does recruit as many, the statement is justified.

User avatar
ricking1288
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:13 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby ricking1288 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:07 am

yo could try Maine because they only have like 2 black students, 6 asian students, and like 4 hispanic students. Check the school profile on TLS. It says it right there. The dilemma is that you would have to go to school in Maine, but there is a lot of white women and who doesn't like white women

yabbadabbado
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby yabbadabbado » Mon May 03, 2010 11:24 am

Nope.

These schools will offer CONDITIONAL (based on 1L gpa) scholarships to SOME non-URM applicants with high LSAT scores and that's it.

They have plenty of non-URM applicants to choose from given the school's typical admissions profile. What they don't have is enough URM applicants. They want to increase diversity in the student body, so they have to do something to get URMs to enroll. Hence the free applications and the UNCONDITIONAL scholarship offers.

JG Hall wrote:But aren't these going to be the same schools that have trouble attracting non-URM applicants that are, for (law school) admissions purposes, "equally" qualified, and offer a lot of scholarship money to them as well?

User avatar
JolieSaraLee
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:34 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JolieSaraLee » Mon May 03, 2010 11:31 am

I know my numbers are very low, but I applied to Vanderbilt with that mentality (of applying to a school that not a lot of URMs apply to)...and got rejected. I also applied to Cornell (which I believe way more URMs apply to) and got waitlisted. I'm pretty sure Vanderbilt needs more Latinos, so I'm kinda surprised at the outcome...

legalized
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:45 am

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Mon May 03, 2010 3:26 pm

jdhonest wrote:1. Assumes that URM would want to go to a school that is not popular with URMs. Arguably, the reason it's not popular with URMs would lead them not to want to go there.
2. Assumes that URM collectively have general preferences for particular schools. Arguably, geography and career goals are just as important for URMs as other students.
3. Assumes that admission to ANY school with a generous financial aid package would attract an URM (see 1) regardless of the quality and nature of the school.
4. Assumes that URMs are being shut out of institutions that are "popular with URMs" (see 2) and must or should find an alternative place to study.

I could add a few more, but I think you get the point. The question is too broad and assumes too much.


1. So what if the reason is that they have just been led to feel the school is for, say, rich people (of any colour)? It's not always true that a school not popular with URMs is not popular for a reason that would hold true if URMs choose to go there instead.

2. It is clear that URMs are encouraged by programs assisting them and by their peers to go to schools that seem to be doing well on the diversity front, so yes, if they don't have the preference they are encouraged to develop it. But a school that is doing well with diversity doesn't have the incentive a less diverse school (racial diversity is what I'm talking here) does. And the concept applies to any other form of diversity.

3. Financial concerns are a big part of what puts the UR in URM along with of course the U.S. history behind the M part (for all the Ms that are included in URM). Geography and career goals are as important as CAN I AFFORD IT for other students just as it is for URMs, don't act like non-URMs don't care about the price!

4. They are not being shut out but they are being less competitive of an applicant, especially if they are yet another student that qualifies for the maximum financial aid package. The school that is having a hard time bribing URMs (assuming there have been no lynchings recently in their town or other such unacceptable causes of the hard time) will have more incentive to diversify if it only has one or two qualified applicants as opposed to Popular Law School that has 50 of them applying.

But okay, you think if they avoid applying for that school, there is a good reason why. Granted. But some schools that offer the same career goals etc. as the ones popular with URMs are overlooked to the point that the school has to put out special effort to not lose applicants in this category to the other similar schools.

That is what I am addressing.

I am waiting on miamiman to finish his insinuation about UMich and UVa instead of coming in here to beat around the bush.

legalized
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:45 am

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Mon May 03, 2010 3:39 pm

JolieSaraLee wrote:I know my numbers are very low, but I applied to Vanderbilt with that mentality (of applying to a school that not a lot of URMs apply to)...and got rejected. I also applied to Cornell (which I believe way more URMs apply to) and got waitlisted. I'm pretty sure Vanderbilt needs more Latinos, so I'm kinda surprised at the outcome...


Yes but aren't there enough Latinos applying to Vanderbilt that they don't have to take one with low numbers, much less very low? Also if you have low...no, very low numbers, the week they started accepting applications was the time to apply...is that what you did or you waited til whenever?

And, Vanderbilt is in a location, if I am not mistaken, that most minorities probably wouldn't mind for the next 3 years of life.

Cornell? It has some evil winters from what I hear, and appears rather isolated compared to Vanderbilt, not even non-URMs can deal with it in many cases. So it makes sense to me that Cornell has a hard time attracting URMs, and waitlisted you instead of turning you down. Although yeah if that was me I would have thought they would reject. Are you retaking your LSAT in June so you can apply first thing to some other schools this fall?

Cornell had a serious jump in apps last year though, so I am wondering if URM apps there jumped as well. They are the Ivy with the lowest 25th percentile, so I can understand the general jump in a bad economy.

I am assuming that people are applying to schools for which they are above the 25th percentile of LSAT, GPA, or both. My thread of course does not apply to URMs applying to schools where they are below the 25th percentile for both measures...that is called reaching, and acceptance at a reach school depends a lot more on luck and timing. lol.

legalized
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:45 am

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby legalized » Mon May 03, 2010 3:48 pm

And lol at whoever said that's every school except Howard.

lol. If Howard is mostly black then I am sure they could do well with some other types of URMs diversifying their talent pool. They might be historically black but they don't have to stay that way. No need to immediately think of the BLACK school when I'm talking URMs either...there are other categories you know.

User avatar
dspit
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:12 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby dspit » Mon May 03, 2010 3:49 pm

legalized wrote:
JolieSaraLee wrote:Cornell? It has some evil winters from what I hear, and appears rather isolated compared to Vanderbilt, not even non-URMs can deal with it in many cases. So it makes sense to me that Cornell has a hard time attracting URMs, and waitlisted you instead of turning you down.



Non-URMs are better suited for cold weather and/or have an easier time being isolated :?

User avatar
JolieSaraLee
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:34 pm

Re: URMs should aim for schools that are NOT popular with URMs

Postby JolieSaraLee » Mon May 03, 2010 4:15 pm

I don't know, to me the thought of living in Tennessee wasn't very appealling. I also looked at Vanderbilt's numbers on LSAC, as far as how many Latinos there are and there seem to be very, very few. I figured Cornell would be more popular with URMs, despite the awful weather. I had never heard of Vanderbilt prior to researching law schools, but I had of course heard of Cornell. And no I'm not retaking the LSAT, I considered it, but I don't know how much more I could increase my score. I'd be taking it a third time and I really don't want to. Also, I submitted my apps in late Nov and went complete mostly everywhere in mid Dec. I thought I had applied fairly early, but I guess I was mistaken.




Return to “Under Represented Law Student Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests