A Big TLS Welcome to Belmont College of Law, 2011 Forum

[Philo38]

I didn't mean to imply that Belmont grads will be equal to Vandy grads. The point is there are a lot of Jobs around Nashville that Vandy grads are not taking. I work in law firms in Nashville, over half of the attorneys who practice in this state are from school outside of this state. There are just as many Ole miss, Alabama, and Cumberland law grads working in law firms in Nashville as Vandy.

If you have a list of jobs in Nashville that Vandy students turned down this year, please share them with the class. Other wise you'd better grab one of Ronald's tits quick before all the milk is gone.

I really don't understand your anger here, and I believe it is misplaced.

I keep hearing arguments to the tune of, "the last thing we need is more lawyers!" Are you operating under the assumption that law schools build JD students out of raw material like GM builds cars? Law schools provide a service, they can only exist as far as people demand that service.

There are not more JDs because there are more and more law schools, there are more and more law schools because there are more people who want JDs.

If Belmont thinks that there is a pool of potential law students that desire a JD that will be interested in them, than they will succeed. If not, they will buckle. It isn't as if there will be a very large percentage of people who never considered law school and as soon as Belmont opens its doors will go . . . "hey, I want a $30,000 a year legal education don't I?"

Furthermore, over 50% of the legal jobs in Nashville are filled with candidates from schools outside the state.

We haven't opened up a law school in over A CENTURY. It isn't as if Tennessee just can't open up law schools fast enough. We have ONE real law school in Nashville and that is one only open to candidates in the top 10% really, Belmont will provide an option for people who want to study law in Nashville and can't afford Vanderbilt.


Also, it certainly is not fair to focus only on last year as an argument for what the market does and does not need in general, Belmont started planning this school 5 years ago, and won't open it until 2012. As I said, a law school is not a temporary thing. What Belmont saw is a significant lack of Tennessee educated lawyers in Nashville, as well as low numbers of lawyers as an average percentage of the population in Tennessee, and determined there was a void that they can fill. Not over the last three years, but hiring over a significant period of time.

Belmont isn't creating more students, it is providing potential students with another option. And in Nashville, the options are VERY slim.

[soullesswonder]

I didn't mean to imply that Belmont grads will be equal to Vandy grads. The point is there are a lot of Jobs around Nashville that Vandy grads are not taking. I work in law firms in Nashville, over half of the attorneys who practice in this state are from school outside of this state. There are just as many Ole miss, Alabama, and Cumberland law grads working in law firms in Nashville as Vandy.

If you have a list of jobs in Nashville that Vandy students turned down this year, please share them with the class. Other wise you'd better grab one of Ronald's tits quick before all the milk is gone.

I really don't understand your anger here, and I believe it is misplaced.

I keep hearing arguments to the tune of, "the last thing we need is more lawyers!" Are you operating under the assumption that law schools build JD students out of raw material like GM builds cars? Law schools provide a service, they can only exist as far as people demand that service.

There are not more JDs because there are more and more law schools, there are more and more law schools because there are more people who want JDs.

If Belmont thinks that there is a pool of potential law students that desire a JD that will be interested in them, than they will succeed. If not, they will buckle. It isn't as if there will be a very large percentage of people who never considered law school and as soon as Belmont opens its doors will go . . . "hey, I want a $30,000 a year legal education don't I?"

No, but there are people who, if frustrated by their inability to be admitted to law school, might reconsider their options. Opening another JD mill just delays the moment when students discover that they can't make a good living as a JD.

Furthermore, over 50% of the legal jobs in Nashville are filled with candidates from schools outside the state.

Who gives a shit? I could easily spin this as a positive on the grounds that it promotes professional development and population growth. Are you seriously that parochial that you see OOS graduates as "furriners"?[/quote]

We haven't opened up a law school in over A CENTURY. It isn't as if Tennessee just can't open up law schools fast enough. We have ONE real law school in Nashville and that is one only open to candidates in the top 10% really, Belmont will provide an option for people who want to study law in Nashville and can't afford Vanderbilt.

Again, who gives a shit? I wish I had an option that would give me Yale-quality job prospects without making me leave the South, but it ain't gonna happen. If you're not willing to leave Nashville to get a JD, then obviously you're not that dedicated to being a lawyer

Also, it certainly is not fair to focus only on last year as an argument for what the market does and does not need in general, Belmont started planning this school 5 years ago, and won't open it until 2012. As I said, a law school is not a temporary thing. What Belmont saw is a significant lack of Tennessee educated lawyers in Nashville, as well as low numbers of lawyers as an average percentage of the population in Tennessee, and determined there was a void that they can fill. Not over the last three years, but hiring over a significant period of time.

Belmont isn't creating more students, it is providing potential students with another option. And in Nashville, the options are VERY slim.

So here's the argument:

1. Belmont shouldn't be blamed for getting sucked into the hype of a JD bubble
2. The JD market of 2006-07 was actually the norm, and we will return there
3. Not having lawyers educated in Tennessee is the worst thing to happen to Nashville since Clay Aiken lost on American Idol
4. Having a relatively low percentage of lawyers in TN is a bad thing rather than indication of the state's sanity
5. Even the most mediocre students have a constitutional right to go to a law school located within 20 miles of their home.

[reasonable_man]

I didn't mean to imply that Belmont grads will be equal to Vandy grads. The point is there are a lot of Jobs around Nashville that Vandy grads are not taking. I work in law firms in Nashville, over half of the attorneys who practice in this state are from school outside of this state. There are just as many Ole miss, Alabama, and Cumberland law grads working in law firms in Nashville as Vandy.

If you have a list of jobs in Nashville that Vandy students turned down this year, please share them with the class. Other wise you'd better grab one of Ronald's tits quick before all the milk is gone.

I really don't understand your anger here, and I believe it is misplaced.

I keep hearing arguments to the tune of, "the last thing we need is more lawyers!" Are you operating under the assumption that law schools build JD students out of raw material like GM builds cars? Law schools provide a service, they can only exist as far as people demand that service.

There are not more JDs because there are more and more law schools, there are more and more law schools because there are more people who want JDs.

If Belmont thinks that there is a pool of potential law students that desire a JD that will be interested in them, than they will succeed. If not, they will buckle. It isn't as if there will be a very large percentage of people who never considered law school and as soon as Belmont opens its doors will go . . . "hey, I want a $30,000 a year legal education don't I?"

Furthermore, over 50% of the legal jobs in Nashville are filled with candidates from schools outside the state.

We haven't opened up a law school in over A CENTURY. It isn't as if Tennessee just can't open up law schools fast enough. We have ONE real law school in Nashville and that is one only open to candidates in the top 10% really, Belmont will provide an option for people who want to study law in Nashville and can't afford Vanderbilt.


Also, it certainly is not fair to focus only on last year as an argument for what the market does and does not need in general, Belmont started planning this school 5 years ago, and won't open it until 2012. As I said, a law school is not a temporary thing. What Belmont saw is a significant lack of Tennessee educated lawyers in Nashville, as well as low numbers of lawyers as an average percentage of the population in Tennessee, and determined there was a void that they can fill. Not over the last three years, but hiring over a significant period of time.

Belmont isn't creating more students, it is providing potential students with another option. And in Nashville, the options are VERY slim.

You're an idiot. Its just that simple.

Its not the demand of people that want a JD that matters; its the demand for legal services from attorneys that matter. Who cares how many fucking idiots want a jd, if there are already too many out there for the amount of jobs available? Get a clue brah; we already have too many lawyers. Just because this school will find 150+ morons to sign up year after year, it does not mean that the institution is being responsible by flooding more lawyers into an already saturated market.

[MTal]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

[orangeswarm]

Interesting news! I'm from Nashville and applying for 2011 so I might consider sending them an app. Belmont is a very well-respected school in Nashville and judging by the rest of the campus, you can be damn sure the law building will be incredible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Belmont will be a TTT either. The school definitely has the cash to make it work but I'm sure it would take years to break the top 100. Unfortunately, I'd rather not be a guinea pig and take law classes in a UG buidling while they work out the kinks and get accredited so I'll probably be trying to enter the Nashville market with a JD from Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason). I wish they could have done this 20 years ago so they would have some sort of reputation/alumni network! Should turn out to be a great school though (Nashville School of Law must be devastated by this news).

As if the rest of your post didn't raise flags.........the underlined portion sure as hell removes all doubt.

Are you from Nashville? Ever been? Maybe you misread that sentence.......I'm not saying that Ole Miss is an elite school. I'm saying that all of the rich kids in Nashville who can't get in to Vandy go to Ole Miss. If you don't believe me, drive around Belle Meade and count the Ole Miss car decals then get back to me. Until then, dont question me if you dont know what the hell youre talking about.

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Didn't misread your sentence. You said "Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason)." If you don't understand how that equates to saying Ole Miss is an elite school, I can't help you. In addition, it is not the non-vandy school of choice in Nashville. But, then again, I clearly don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

[reasonable_man]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

Nah let em write the loans... Just make them dischargable in bankruptcy... Then we'll see how long schools like Belmont College of Law and stuff will be able to charge 40k a year when no one is willing to write the loan..

[MTal]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

Nah let em write the loans... Just make them dischargable in bankruptcy... Then we'll see how long schools like Belmont College of Law and stuff will be able to charge 40k a year when no one is willing to write the loan..

Sorry RM, but I have to disagree. The entire crisis currently engulfing law is ENTIRELY of the governments making. Think about it, what private lender would risk lending 150k to a Cooley law student? NONE, for the simple reason that they would never see even a fraction of their loan returned to them. By helping to finance law school education, the government has unwittingly lowered the standards of law students while at the same time artificially increasing demand. Without government financing, the number of JD's churned out each year would be a function of supply and demand, i.e. the jobs to lawyers ratio would be much higher. As it stands now, the JD is at risk of becoming a type of clown college degree, with a law school on every street corner willing to take in anyone who is willing to pay the astonishing price.

[General Tso]

There are NO geographic regions that need another blood-sucking TTT shit shop opened.

WRONG. Alaska needs a blood sucking TTT shit shop.

[General Tso]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

I disagree...I think a good option would be for state bars to dramatically cut the pass rate of their Bar Exams. That would do 2 things - make schools fail the ABA accreditation standard and make stupid people think "hey I've only got a 1/3 chance of even becoming a lawyer out of this school...Maybe this is too risky for my 200k investment"

[MTal]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

I disagree...I think a good option would be for state bars to dramatically cut the pass rate of their Bar Exams. That would do 2 things - make schools fail the ABA accreditation standard and make stupid people think "hey I've only got a 1/3 chance of even becoming a lawyer out of this school...Maybe this is too risky for my 200k investment"

God you are an idiot.

[General Tso]

God you are an idiot.

Care to elaborate? Why should some state bars pass 85% and others 60%? Why not set the pass rate at 50%?

[MTal]

God you are an idiot.

Care to elaborate? Why should some state bars pass 85% and others 60%? Why not set the pass rate at 50%?

The laws of different states differ in their complexity. It should be no surprise that the bar passage rate in California is different than that of North Dakota. All that would happen if bar standards were raised would be that schools would tailor their entire curriculum to passing the bar (which as any admitted lawyer will tell you, has very little to do with teaching you to be a lawyer). Can you imagine some doughead english major saying to himself, "I may not pass the bar, so I'll pass on law school??" As long as the educational loan spigot is flowing wide open, there will be no shortage of retards saying to themselves, "I waNT to go To Law sKoOl aNd be PresTTTiguOUs Law-ehr!!!"

[Matthies]

I’m more on Philo’s side of this argument for two primary reasons: 1) I don’t think artificially limiting the supply of something does anything to change the real problem, demand, and 2) I’m not for any government or organization telling me what to do.

People do stupid things, let them do stupid things. I smoke. My grandmother and grandfather dies of smoking. My dad has had 1/3 of his lung removed from smoking. I spend $10 a day smoking. I pay more for cigarettes then I do any other expense. I can’t walk up a flight of stairs without getting winded. I can’t get health insurance because I smoke. But its my choice, I do it freely and I do it full well knowing the risks. And when I get lung cancer and die I’m not going to be a hypocrite and blame big tabbcoo for fooling me into thinking smoking was safe, or cool, or fun or anything else. If and when I die from smoking it won’t be because there are too many cigarette makers, it will be because I chose to smoke and no other reason.

I see this whole blame the ABA for their being too many lawyers the same way. There are two many lawyers because everyone wants to be one, not because there are too many law schools. More people apply for law school every year than there are seats. Even if you opened 100 more schools I bet there would still be more demand than seats.

Let people choose to pay 30k for an unaccredited law school. People do stupid things, let them do stupid things. But, make them admit to their own stupidity instead of blaming it on someone else. Its not big tobaccos fault I smoke. Its my fault and I get what I deserve for doing it and I’m going to put the blame squarely on myself rather than Phillip Morris for making me a slave to tabbaco.

What worked for smoking will work for an over crowed legal profession. Smoking isn’t cool now, that’s what has driven it down, not the thing on the side of the pack that says THIS WILL KILL YOU. Demand for smoking has gone down because people have been educated on its draw backs. Let the same thing happen to the legal system. Its been growing for 15+ years at a pace it can’t sustain.

I don’t want Obama telling me I can’t smoke and I’m not for the ABA telling schools they can’t open another LS. Let people make mistakes, but just demand they admit whose fault it really is. This blame the ABA is like me blaming Joe Camel for me starting to smoke. I just can’t personally buy into that, and hence why I have trouble with this ‘it’s the ABA’s fault there are too many lawyers” rather than its too many people who want to go to be lawyers fault the market is glutted. Nobody makes me buy the cigarettes and nobody makes someone go to law school. that's just how I see it, as coming down to personal choice rather than the system making it so.

[General Tso]

God you are an idiot.

Care to elaborate? Why should some state bars pass 85% and others 60%? Why not set the pass rate at 50%?

The laws of different states differ in their complexity. It should be no surprise that the bar passage rate in California is different than that of North Dakota. All that would happen if bar standards were raised would be that schools would tailor their entire curriculum to passing the bar (which as any admitted lawyer will tell you, has very little to do with teaching you to be a lawyer). Can you imagine some doughead english major saying to himself, "I may not pass the bar, so I'll pass on law school??" As long as the educational loan spigot is flowing wide open, there will be no shortage of retards saying to themselves, "I waNT to go To Law sKoOl aNd be PresTTTiguOUs Law-ehr!!!"

Your position wasn't so obvious as to warrant your calling me an idiot.

[Matthies]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS.

I totally agree with this. End loans period.

[Zapatero]

God you are an idiot.

Care to elaborate? Why should some state bars pass 85% and others 60%? Why not set the pass rate at 50%?

The point is to determine if an individual is capable carrying out his/her duty effectively. This does not mean that a state must set a predertermined limit on the proportion of people that pass it. This would not kill the T3/4s on the basis that the quality of education is inferior, but rather that it's students are, on average, less intelligent that those from the top-tier. This does not mean, though, that students from these schools are incapable of practicing- only that they are less qualified that other prospective attorneys. This would be detrimental to small, local practices that are regularly filled by lower-tier graduates.

[MTal]

Your position wasn't so obvious as to warrant your calling me an idiot.

Boo hoo hoo, cry me a river.

[General Tso]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS.

I totally agree with this. End loans period.

Loans are not a bad thing but we have too much access to credit in this country. That causes everything to skyrocket in price, from education to healthcare to housing.

[NeverlandRancher]

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Didn't misread your sentence. You said "Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason)." If you don't understand how that equates to saying Ole Miss is an elite school, I can't help you. In addition, it is not the non-vandy school of choice in Nashville. But, then again, I clearly don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Alright, let me paraphrase it for you (as somebody else already has):
"The school of choice for the non-Vandy elite of Nashville."

Is that easier for you to understand?
American Heritage- elite n: A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status.
So now you tell me. Is it indeed possible that my original statement could have inferred something other than the fact that Ole Miss is an elite school?

Also, I just looked the the 2009 matriculation list from the school i attended in nashville and Ole Miss is once again the single most represented school (more than UTK, Vanderbilt, Georgia, etc). This also held true for my graduating class and the three before and after it.

[OperaSoprano]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

Nah let em write the loans... Just make them dischargable in bankruptcy... Then we'll see how long schools like Belmont College of Law and stuff will be able to charge 40k a year when no one is willing to write the loan..

Cutting off government loans in the first place would create barriers even for qualified students who were not creditworthy. Because of medical issues, my own credit is ruined, and I doubt that any private lender would give me tuition money even if I were going to Yale. Ending government lending would only perpetuate the inequality of opportunity already rampant in this country.

It's inexcusable that student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy, though. I have a feeling the law might change in our lifetime.

[General Tso]

This argument about Nashville and Ole Miss is boring. I went to Ole Miss -- there are a lot of rich kids from Nashville there. Okay? Nobody in their right mind thinks Ole Miss is prestigious for anything. Case closed.

[Matthies]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS.

I totally agree with this. End loans period.

Loans are not a bad thing but we have too much access to credit in this country. That causes everything to skyrocket in price, from education to healthcare to housing.

Well I'm all for keeping the poors out of the profession. If not for all those damn smart poor kids being all needy and stuff I would have been a legacy admit to hararvd. Damn poor people are taking my spots!

[soullesswonder]

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Didn't misread your sentence. You said "Ole Miss (the non-Vandy Nashville elite school of choice for some reason)." If you don't understand how that equates to saying Ole Miss is an elite school, I can't help you. In addition, it is not the non-vandy school of choice in Nashville. But, then again, I clearly don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

OMG, you're a retard for not understanding the tangential thought that I initially failed to express in a clear and unequivocal manner.

[Mr. Matlock]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS. Once that happens, the shithole TTT's will shut their doors accordingly.

Nah let em write the loans... Just make them dischargable in bankruptcy... Then we'll see how long schools like Belmont College of Law and stuff will be able to charge 40k a year when no one is willing to write the loan..

Cutting off government loans in the first place would create barriers even for qualified students who were not creditworthy. Because of medical issues, my own credit is ruined, and I doubt that any private lender would give me tuition money even if I were going to Yale. Ending government lending would only perpetuate the inequality of opportunity already rampant in this country.

It's inexcusable that student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy, though. I have a feeling the law might change in our lifetime.

And when that happens, RM's prediction will come to fruition and we'll all be in the same boat. No bank in their right mind would write a loan to the great musical juggernaut of Belmont Law.

[General Tso]

Honestly the only way to stop this madness is not to close down all the law schools but to end the federally subsidized law school LOANS.

I totally agree with this. End loans period.

Loans are not a bad thing but we have too much access to credit in this country. That causes everything to skyrocket in price, from education to healthcare to housing.

Well I'm all for keeping the poors out of the profession. If not for all those damn smart poor kids being all needy and stuff I would have been a legacy admit to hararvd. Damn poor people are taking my spots!

It's not about that...once upon a time a poor person could afford to work their way through college and law school. At my orientation at Hastings a judge talked about how he worked his way through UG and Hastings by working an lumber mills and shit. My mom's tuition at LSU in the 70s was $200 a semester.

Hell in the early 2000s the tuition at Hastings was under 10 grand a year. Even back then you could earn enough money over the summers and part time to pay the bulk of that amount. Not anymore...