Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

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snotrocket
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Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:17 pm

EDIT: 6/14/09 -- Updated to include all schools. The data reported cover an estimated total of 1,424 federal clerks.

The USNWR online edition profile for law schools this year includes a new field: Percent employed as clerks by Article III federal judges. Morse mentioned this a while back, and apparently he decided to include this data in the survey for the 2009 rankings. Since the profile only shows this number as a percentage, I corrected it against the "percent of graduates employed at 9 months" data, to give actual numbers of clerks and true percentages based on total number of graduates. Check the footnotes for adjustments that I had to make on some of the numbers, to fix what seemed like obvious anomalies.

Rank by Percent of Class

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Rank by Number of Clerks

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Stem and Leaf Plot by Number of Clerks

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(*) For schools with 10 or more estimated clerks, I compared the number of total graduates reported to USNWR with the number of JDs awarded reported to LSAC. Where these numbers differed, I used the latter instead. I did not check or adjust the class size for schools with an estimated number of clerks less than 10. Note that, because the schools reported the percent of graduates employed as federal clerks to USNWR, this adjustment only changes the estimated number of graduates working as clerks, not the proportion of graduates employed as federal clerks. The percentage of graduates employed as federal clerks depends only on the product of "Percent Employed at 9 Months After Graduation" and "Percent Employed as Clerks for Article III Judges," using both figures as reported to USNWR.

(1) Some schools reported a percentage of federal clerks larger than the percentage including all clerks. If the product of these numbers produced a rational result (i.e. 1 or more clerks), then I used that proportion, assuming that the school mistakenly reported the percentage of clerks employed by federal judges rather than the percentage of graduates employed who were working as federal clerks. If the product yielded a total number of clerks less than 1, then I assigned 0.0 for the percentage of federal clerks from that school, because in that case we have no clear way to reconcile the numbers without making an outright guess.

TOTAL / FEDERAL / ASSIGNED
0.092 0.950 0.087 4 Columbia
0.186 0.381 0.071 30 Washington & Lee
0.024 0.070 0.000 94 St. Louis
0.140 0.320 0.045 T4 Duquesne
0.040 0.070 0.000 T4 Regent

(2) Some schools reported a percentage of federal clerks equal to the percentage of total clerks. I assumed that these schools did not understand the question asking for percentage of graduates employed as clerks for Article III judges, and I assigned 0.0 for the percentage of federal clerks for each of these schools.

TOTAL / FEDERAL / ASSIGNED
0.140 0.140 0.000 41 Brigham Young
0.130 0.130 0.000 100 Maine
0.125 0.125 0.000 T4 New England
0.100 0.100 0.000 T4 Suffolk
0.036 0.036 0.000 T4 Texas Southern
0.040 0.040 0.000 T4 Touro
0.037 0.037 0.000 T4 Valparaiso
0.110 0.110 0.000 T4 Western New England

(3) Some schools reported a percentage of federal clerks less than the percentage of total clerks, but still anomalously large. Since the product of the percentages seemed to yield a non-zero and more plausible figure in all of these cases, and since the schools did not apparently just repeat their figure for total clerks, I treated these schools the same as those in note (1).

TOTAL / FEDERAL / ASSIGNED
0.280 0.250 0.070 T3 North Dakota
0.170 0.160 0.027 T3 St. Thomas (MN)
0.190 0.167 0.032 T3 Wyoming
0.110 0.109 0.012 T4 Mississippi College

(4) Southern University apparently could not be bothered to complete the part of the survey requesting data on employment outcomes for their graduates.
Last edited by snotrocket on Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:18 am, edited 26 times in total.

legends159
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby legends159 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:20 pm

very impressive for BYU, what gives their LDS background?

snotrocket
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:27 pm

...
Last edited by snotrocket on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RonSantoRules
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby RonSantoRules » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:40 pm

Snot thanks for posting this. You are giving TTT-LS a run for his money for top poster on this site.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:54 pm

:shock:
Regent. The Bible Belt strikes again.

Bully for them.

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Formerbruin
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Formerbruin » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:02 am

That 390 number from Berkeley probably includes the LLMs (of which there are 90+) who are not eligible for clerkships, since our graduating class is only 300.

snotrocket
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby snotrocket » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:12 am

...
Last edited by snotrocket on Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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goosey
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby goosey » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:15 am

whats byu?

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RudeDudewithAttitude
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby RudeDudewithAttitude » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:24 am

Nice BYU!

Still, if BYU is so well respected by judges, how do you explain its terrible US News peer ratings?

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:27 am

goosey wrote:whats byu?

Brigham Young University

snotrocket
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby snotrocket » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:28 am

Formerbruin wrote:That 390 number from Berkeley probably includes the LLMs (of which there are 90+) who are not eligible for clerkships, since our graduating class is only 300.

U.S. News only reports "percent employed as clerks," so I'm not sure we can tell what number the schools divided by in order to get that figure. I backed that percentage out against the total graduates to calculate number of clerks, and changing the class size to 309 (reported number of JDs from LSAC) only really changes that estimated number, not the percentage. The percentage of clerks is just a function of % Employed at 9 Months * % Employed as Article III Clerks. So that won't change either way, and it's not clear how we can know which total the schools divided against to get the % of Clerks that they reported (we can probably assume though that it was the smaller number of JDs where that applies, since that makes the statistic look better). So the only harm the way it's figured now is that it will somewhat overestimate the number of clerks for schools that had large LLM numbers included in the USNWR "total graduates" figure, but it won't change the proportions either way. I may go back and fill in the JDs awarded figures from LSAC anyway, just to make the number of clerks more accurate.

EDIT: Checked and fixed for all schools with > 10 clerks. See the OP above.
Last edited by snotrocket on Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

snotrocket
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby snotrocket » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:31 am

RudeDudewithAttitude wrote:Still, if BYU is so well respected by judges, how do you explain its terrible US News peer ratings?

Judges =/= law professors.

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dbt
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby dbt » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:44 am

Seems like a much weaker showing for Chicago than I expected.

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RudeDudewithAttitude
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby RudeDudewithAttitude » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:54 am

snotrocket wrote:
RudeDudewithAttitude wrote:Still, if BYU is so well respected by judges, how do you explain its terrible US News peer ratings?

Judges =/= law professors.


You're right. I guess BYU's judge/lawyer ratings aren't that bad.

Olto
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Olto » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:20 am

Is this only for class of '09 placement? I'm pretty sure that these stats are bunk if not -- that is, if they cover EVERY clerk from a school regardless of their graduation year. There are plenty of clerks who have been out of school for years.


Also, there are about ~960 clerks on that list. Let's further assume that there are some schools with maybe one clerk not on that list -- so we round the number to 1,000. There are roughly 800 active federal judges with another 450 senior judges. Let's assume that the average active judge has two clerks*. That means there are at least 1,600 clerk positions. The numbers above only cover a little more than half of that. I don't know how a "senior" judge operates, but even assuming that they only have ONE clerk -- that's another 450 right there that are unaccounted for.

* Keep in mind, with two per judge... I'm not counting the four judges that each SCOTUS member has, and the high numbers that circuit courts normally have (upwards of four or five in many cases). Two per judge seems fair. The district court judge I am interning for has four clerks -- two full-time clerks, a deputy clerk, and a special master for a complex issue. Admittedly, she's probably in the minority with four at the district court level.

In sum, these numbers just don't make sense to me. I know two clerks from a single school alone, and I find it hard to believe that I know ~6% of the clerks from that school.

yesofcourse
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby yesofcourse » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:30 am

Is Georgetown really not on the list

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:35 am

yesofcourse wrote:Is Georgetown really not on the list

Numbers 28 and 14, respectively, in the first two posts

yesofcourse
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby yesofcourse » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:39 am

Mr. Matlock wrote:
yesofcourse wrote:Is Georgetown really not on the list

Numbers 28 and 14, respectively, in the first two posts


oh i see it

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:44 am

yesofcourse wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
yesofcourse wrote:Is Georgetown really not on the list

Numbers 28 and 14, respectively, in the first two posts


If I am understanding you right that's George Washington not Georgetown

My bad, #7 in the third post. Also, don't look at the USNEWS Ranking in the first column, it's the second column.

NewDay
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby NewDay » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:53 am

Olto wrote:Is this only for class of '09 placement? I'm pretty sure that these stats are bunk if not -- that is, if they cover EVERY clerk from a school regardless of their graduation year. There are plenty of clerks who have been out of school for years.


Also, there are about ~960 clerks on that list. Let's further assume that there are some schools with maybe one clerk not on that list -- so we round the number to 1,000. There are roughly 800 active federal judges with another 450 senior judges. Let's assume that the average active judge has two clerks*. That means there are at least 1,600 clerk positions. The numbers above only cover a little more than half of that. I don't know how a "senior" judge operates, but even assuming that they only have ONE clerk -- that's another 450 right there that are unaccounted for.

* Keep in mind, with two per judge... I'm not counting the four judges that each SCOTUS member has, and the high numbers that circuit courts normally have (upwards of four or five in many cases). Two per judge seems fair. The district court judge I am interning for has four clerks -- two full-time clerks, a deputy clerk, and a special master for a complex issue. Admittedly, she's probably in the minority with four at the district court level.

In sum, these numbers just don't make sense to me. I know two clerks from a single school alone, and I find it hard to believe that I know ~6% of the clerks from that school.


The OP said the list is incomplete, its only tier 1.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:00 am

NewDay wrote:
Olto wrote:Is this only for class of '09 placement? I'm pretty sure that these stats are bunk if not -- that is, if they cover EVERY clerk from a school regardless of their graduation year. There are plenty of clerks who have been out of school for years.


Also, there are about ~960 clerks on that list. Let's further assume that there are some schools with maybe one clerk not on that list -- so we round the number to 1,000. There are roughly 800 active federal judges with another 450 senior judges. Let's assume that the average active judge has two clerks*. That means there are at least 1,600 clerk positions. The numbers above only cover a little more than half of that. I don't know how a "senior" judge operates, but even assuming that they only have ONE clerk -- that's another 450 right there that are unaccounted for.

* Keep in mind, with two per judge... I'm not counting the four judges that each SCOTUS member has, and the high numbers that circuit courts normally have (upwards of four or five in many cases). Two per judge seems fair. The district court judge I am interning for has four clerks -- two full-time clerks, a deputy clerk, and a special master for a complex issue. Admittedly, she's probably in the minority with four at the district court level.

In sum, these numbers just don't make sense to me. I know two clerks from a single school alone, and I find it hard to believe that I know ~6% of the clerks from that school.


The OP said the list is incomplete, its only tier 1 with a T4 added for flavor.

Fixed!

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curiouser
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby curiouser » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:49 am

Olto wrote:Is this only for class of '09 placement? I'm pretty sure that these stats are bunk if not -- that is, if they cover EVERY clerk from a school regardless of their graduation year. There are plenty of clerks who have been out of school for years.

I'd care to bet they're only counting '09, because otherwise we run into the issue you raised re: totals. But these sorts of methodological issues are so common with USNWR.

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strawberryfanta
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby strawberryfanta » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:16 am

Nice to see Tulane placing well.

zero1
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby zero1 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:45 am

dbt wrote:Seems like a much weaker showing for Chicago than I expected.



ditto

snotrocket
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Re: Clerkship Placement Stats 2009

Postby snotrocket » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:44 am

Olto wrote:Is this only for class of '09 placement? I'm pretty sure that these stats are bunk if not -- that is, if they cover EVERY clerk from a school regardless of their graduation year. There are plenty of clerks who have been out of school for years.

Seems safe to assume, at least because Yale's figure lines up well with its overall clerkship percentage, that the percentages mean the proportion of class of 2007 graduates that were working as federal clerks at the 9 months after graduation point. In other words, the federal clerkship figure seems calculated or reported on the same basis as all the other employment proportions. I labeled the stats '2009' because they're based on the USNWR data released this year, but of course the employment survey will be for class of 2007.
Last edited by snotrocket on Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.




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