what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:11 pm

sbalive wrote:
gatorlion wrote:eople who go into legal academia were stellar performers in undergraduate, as evidenced by their numerous accomplishments even before entering law school. What about that is so hard to understand? If you earned a 3.1 GPA, you probably did not win many substantial awards in undergrad, which means you have fewer accolades than your high-performing colleagues coming from the liberal arts. HYS are not full of nose-grinding 3.1 GPA students, they are the best students from all disciplines. Therefore, they will have a substantial advantage if they choose to enter legal academia. The adage about scholarships in academia, "Money follows money," could be paraphrased to mean "success begets success." The best of the best will become legal scholars. End of story.


You seem unable to comprehend the difference between correlation and causation. This may cause difficulty in future academic endeavours.


Achievement in undergrad = More likely to achieve in the future when compared to average students. Aeroplane is right that there is a massive hill to climb in order to get into legal academia. People who were more consistent in their achievement are more likely to have institutional inertia give them an edge in their pursuits. Having a low GPA does not preclude one from going into legal academia, but not going to HYS is already a significant blow to chances of doing so. Had Aeroplane performed better on the LSAT and throughout college, I would have no problem saying that he/she would have a terrific shot at legal academia. But he/she didn't and now the hurdles have been set up.

Also, I think I'm good on the correlation/causation front. As a current PhD student in a social science at a top public, I think I can offer my opinion from one of experience. My future academic endeavors look excellent, thank you.

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Aeroplane
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Aeroplane » Sat May 09, 2009 5:13 pm

gatorlion wrote:People who go into legal academia were stellar performers in undergraduate, as evidenced by their numerous accomplishments even before entering law school. What about that is so hard to understand? If you earned a 3.1 GPA, you probably did not win many substantial awards in undergrad, which means you have fewer accolades than your high-performing colleagues coming from the liberal arts. HYS are not full of nose-grinding 3.1 GPA students, they are the best students from all disciplines. Therefore, they will have a substantial advantage if they choose to enter legal academia. The adage about scholarships in academia, "Money follows money," could be paraphrased to mean "success begets success." The best of the best will become legal scholars. End of story.


You are incoherent, you jump from topic to topic, and you make baseless assumptions (nose-grinding? hah!). It's hard for me to step back when "people are WRONG on the INTERNET" but I have already wasted too much time on this. Please continue to bask in your undergrad 4.0 while I enjoy my T10 law school with merit $$.**


**To everyone who is not gatorlion: please excuse the douchey-ness of this last sentence. This has brought out my inner "THAT GUY".

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:14 pm

rayiner wrote:Gatorlion,

Your post implied that a 3.1 in engineering suggested a lack of effort and work ethic. That's just not true. A 3.1 isn't a top student by any measure, but it is very possible for a 3.1 in engineering to correspond to around a 3.5 in a liberal arts program with a comparable student body. At my UG, both would be roughly top 1/3 in their respective programs. Both would be good, reasonably hard-working students. I highly doubt if you had seen someone's profile with a 3.5 going to Michigan that expressed interest in academia, you would've gone off like that.

Beyond that, you're reading all sorts of things into my posts that aren't there. Quote my post where it says anything that could be construed to indicate that I thought law professors, supreme court justices, etc, weren't brilliant? Even in my completely drunken state all I said is that a 3.1 in engineering from a top school is much more impressive to me than a 3.5 in liberal arts from a run of the mill school.


Granted. But neither the 3.1 in engineering or the 3.5 in liberal arts has what it takes to make legal academia. FTW :D

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:16 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
gatorlion wrote:People who go into legal academia were stellar performers in undergraduate, as evidenced by their numerous accomplishments even before entering law school. What about that is so hard to understand? If you earned a 3.1 GPA, you probably did not win many substantial awards in undergrad, which means you have fewer accolades than your high-performing colleagues coming from the liberal arts. HYS are not full of nose-grinding 3.1 GPA students, they are the best students from all disciplines. Therefore, they will have a substantial advantage if they choose to enter legal academia. The adage about scholarships in academia, "Money follows money," could be paraphrased to mean "success begets success." The best of the best will become legal scholars. End of story.


You are incoherent, you jump from topic to topic, and you make baseless assumptions (nose-grinding? hah!). It's hard for me to step back when "people are WRONG on the INTERNET" but I have already wasted too much time on this. Please continue to bask in your undergrad 4.0 while I enjoy my T10 law school with merit $$.**

It's difficult to stay coherent when I'm being attacked on all sides simultaneously, but enjoy Michigan. I heard they have terrific weather and a great football team (red herring, see I can play too!).

Final disclosure: I come from a classical elitist position, so I'm going to be advocating that legal scholars come from the pool of the most talented individuals. I apologize if this sounds crass or absurd.

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rayiner
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby rayiner » Sat May 09, 2009 5:19 pm

^^^ You think an elitist would've swung better than a TTTop 50 UG...

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:23 pm

rayiner wrote:^^^ You think an elitist would've swung better than a TTTop 50 UG school...


Full-ride (actually made money with merit scholarships) in-state; only applied to 3 state schools; admitted into 2/3; valedictorian, commencement speaker, Marshall scholar finalist; ivy league MA in hard sciences (coming from liberal arts background); current PhD student at top public, aiming for T5 law schools. I'd say I've done well for myself.

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dresden doll
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby dresden doll » Sat May 09, 2009 5:26 pm

gatorlion wrote:
Final disclosure: I come from a classical elitist position, so I'm going to be advocating that legal scholars come from the pool of the most talented individuals. I apologize if this sounds crass or absurd.


But again, I posit to you: why should you think that a 3.1 EE (Aeroplane) would be at a disadvantage for academia in comparison to a 3.99 English/Political Science major (myself)? Why should UG GPA matter at all once LS commences?

Man, I gotta drag my SO to do laundry before he weighs in on this debate...

sbalive
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby sbalive » Sat May 09, 2009 5:26 pm

gatorlion wrote:
rayiner wrote:^^^ You think an elitist would've swung better than a TTTop 50 UG school...


Full-ride (actually made money with merit scholarships) in-state; only applied to 3 state schools; admitted into 2/3; valedictorian, commencement speaker, Marshall scholar finalist; ivy league MA in hard sciences (coming from liberal arts background); current PhD student at top public, aiming for T5 law schools. I'd say I've done well for myself.


:shock:

I think we can all take comfort in knowing that since he hasn't actually gotten into law school yet, he won't be a 1L at the school any of us is attending this Fall. 8)

(Oh, and by the way - we're all very accomplished. I don't know if you've noticed, but the people arguing with you have won admission to highly competitive law schools. Your resume does not really impress us.)
Last edited by sbalive on Sat May 09, 2009 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:27 pm

dresden doll wrote:
gatorlion wrote:
Final disclosure: I come from a classical elitist position, so I'm going to be advocating that legal scholars come from the pool of the most talented individuals. I apologize if this sounds crass or absurd.


But again, I posit to you: why should you think that a 3.1 EE (Aeroplane) would be at a disadvantage for academia in comparison to a 3.99 English/Political Science major (myself)? Why should UG GPA matter at all once LS commences?

Man, I gotta drag my SO to do laundry before he weighs in on this debate...


Again, it's not that having a low GPA precludes one from entering legal academia. I guess what I'm saying is path depedence: once you earned a 3.1 GPA you were basically screwed unless you got the kind of LSAT score that would grant you admittance to HYSC, where most of the legal scholars come from.

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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby sbalive » Sat May 09, 2009 5:30 pm

gatorlion wrote: would grant you admittance to HYSC, where most of the legal scholars come from.


I thought social scientists were supposed to understand the difference between plurality and majority.

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:33 pm

sbalive wrote:
gatorlion wrote: would grant you admittance to HYSC, where most of the legal scholars come from.


I thought social scientists were supposed to understand the difference between plurality and majority.


True. Maybe we should differentiate between teaching at Wayne State and UT-Austin. You could also be a legal scholar even if you never went to law school, but we call those people "crazy."

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Cleareyes
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Cleareyes » Sat May 09, 2009 5:41 pm

gatorlion wrote:
sbalive wrote:
gatorlion wrote: would grant you admittance to HYSC, where most of the legal scholars come from.


I thought social scientists were supposed to understand the difference between plurality and majority.


True. Maybe we should differentiate between teaching at Wayne State and UT-Austin. You could also be a legal scholar even if you never went to law school, but we call those people "crazy."


When I was at the Harvard admitted student weekend everybody said that legal academia has changed and what counts now are the articles you produce and the work you do, not so much your credentials.

But what do they know? They're just a bunch of Harvard 3Ls and profs. They're not nearly as wise as you are.

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gatorlion
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby gatorlion » Sat May 09, 2009 5:45 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
gatorlion wrote:
sbalive wrote:
gatorlion wrote: would grant you admittance to HYSC, where most of the legal scholars come from.


I thought social scientists were supposed to understand the difference between plurality and majority.


True. Maybe we should differentiate between teaching at Wayne State and UT-Austin. You could also be a legal scholar even if you never went to law school, but we call those people "crazy."


When I was at the Harvard admitted student weekend everybody said that legal academia has changed and what counts now are the articles you produce and the work you do, not so much your credentials.

But what do they know? They're just a bunch of Harvard 3Ls and profs. They're not nearly as wise as you are.


Another can of worms. 1) They are telling you this at HARVARD. 2) In social science academia it's still an old boys network and if you didn't go to the top 15 or so schools, you will never get a chance to teach at them. I have talked to several law professors about legal academia and one of them (a Harvard grad) told me this: "Look around these halls (referring to the professors offices). Everyone went to either Harvard or Yale."

Some further (albeit anecdotal) evidence: --LinkRemoved--
Notice a trend in the schools these professors went to?
Game. Set. Match.

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Aeroplane
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Aeroplane » Sat May 09, 2009 5:55 pm

Grr. I am supposed to not be on here anymore. Just a couple things:

1) I was IE, not EE. Not as hard. Imaginary, as some might say :wink:
2) I appreciate the help from everyone, but work ethic during UG is not something you want to defend me on. I had a good time in UG, frequently at the expense of my school work. Graduated early with a 2.5 GPA my last semester, after I already had my job offer. That being said, I still graduated in the top half of my class at a top school, got some great WE after and am almost done with an MS. I have matured a lot since then and done a lot of hard work in different contexts.
3) When I say I want legal academia, I don't really care where. I would be perfectly happy to teach law at the local T4. Of course, even at T4's most profs have great credentials.
4) My LSAT would certainly have been acceptable to HYSC. My GPA obviously wasn't.
5) gatorlion may not be joining any of us the year after next either, since he/she hasn't taken the LSAT yet. We can still hope.
6) For those interested in actual numerical breakdowns on academia, Leiter's rankings are useful. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

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MrSoOoFLy
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Sat May 09, 2009 5:59 pm

St. John's

Also may be the highest if I choke on the LSAT again -=\

sbalive
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby sbalive » Sat May 09, 2009 6:00 pm

Aeroplane wrote:5) gatorlion may not be joining any of us the year after next either, since he/she hasn't taken the LSAT yet. We can still hope.


A-effing-men 8)

(On the other hand, I really wish you were going to the same school as me now - I feel that way about 80% of the posters I see here. The others... wow. Good thing it's a big country with a lot of law schools.)

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Aeroplane
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Aeroplane » Sat May 09, 2009 6:05 pm

sbalive wrote:(On the other hand, I really wish you were going to the same school as me now - I feel that way about 80% of the posters I see here. The others... wow. Good thing it's a big country with a lot of law schools.)


Awwwwww :oops:

Are you going to a school that is somewhere warm? If so, us TLS Michigan folks could form a delegation for a visit. Sometime in Jan/Feb perhaps? Who am I kidding... Sometime Oct-April?

sbalive
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby sbalive » Sat May 09, 2009 6:07 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
sbalive wrote:(On the other hand, I really wish you were going to the same school as me now - I feel that way about 80% of the posters I see here. The others... wow. Good thing it's a big country with a lot of law schools.)


Awwwwww :oops:

Are you going to a school that is somewhere warm? If so, us TLS Michigan folks could form a delegation for a visit. Sometime in Jan/Feb perhaps? Who am I kidding... Sometime Oct-April?


Sadly, New York, so I too will be looking for someplace warm around that time. I think we need to bug the Duke/UT/UCLA kids about this 8)

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Cleareyes
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Cleareyes » Sat May 09, 2009 6:13 pm

gatorlion wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
When I was at the Harvard admitted student weekend everybody said that legal academia has changed and what counts now are the articles you produce and the work you do, not so much your credentials.

But what do they know? They're just a bunch of Harvard 3Ls and profs. They're not nearly as wise as you are.


Another can of worms. 1) They are telling you this at HARVARD. 2) In social science academia it's still an old boys network and if you didn't go to the top 15 or so schools, you will never get a chance to teach at them. I have talked to several law professors about legal academia and one of them (a Harvard grad) told me this: "Look around these halls (referring to the professors offices). Everyone went to either Harvard or Yale."

Some further (albeit anecdotal) evidence: --LinkRemoved--
Notice a trend in the schools these professors went to?
Game. Set. Match.


Yes. At HARVARD, where they would be inclined to PROMOTE credentials because they wanted us all to go there and the credential they offer is awesome. Your anecdotal twaddle aside, you don't seem to grasp the idea of 'is changing.' As in current and FUTURE hires are less credentially driven. Did you think legal academia had made itself over overnight?

Of course going to a great school is an advantage. Only an idiot would deny that. But go to a merely good one and do great work and you will get a shot at an academic job, and can move up from there to the next job and then the next. Of course most HYS professors will be from fancy schools Most people with the capacity and drive to be an HYS professor demonstrated that capacity and drive before law school application period, or during 1L. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about your being a dismissive ass over someone's legal academic aspirations for no good reason except it makes you feel like a big man.

And your little game set match in addition to being unwarranted and logically suspect was just another example of what makes you unlikable, besides being wrong and thinking you're hot shit when you are, in fact, not hot at all.

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rayiner
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby rayiner » Sat May 09, 2009 6:22 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
gatorlion wrote:
sbalive wrote:
gatorlion wrote: would grant you admittance to HYSC, where most of the legal scholars come from.


I thought social scientists were supposed to understand the difference between plurality and majority.


True. Maybe we should differentiate between teaching at Wayne State and UT-Austin. You could also be a legal scholar even if you never went to law school, but we call those people "crazy."


When I was at the Harvard admitted student weekend everybody said that legal academia has changed and what counts now are the articles you produce and the work you do, not so much your credentials.

But what do they know? They're just a bunch of Harvard 3Ls and profs. They're not nearly as wise as you are.


I fully support your drop of the H-bomb in this debate. Well played, sir.

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Cleareyes
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Cleareyes » Sat May 09, 2009 6:27 pm

rayiner wrote:I fully support your drop of the H-bomb in this debate. Well played, sir.


He started the "I'm more elite than you are" stuff. He made that an issue. I am of the opinion that in the end, regardless of the names on your resume, great work will yield great rewards.

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rayiner
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby rayiner » Sat May 09, 2009 6:29 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
rayiner wrote:I fully support your drop of the H-bomb in this debate. Well played, sir.


He started the "I'm more elite than you are" stuff. He made that an issue. I am of the opinion that in the end, regardless of the names on your resume, great work will yield great rewards.


Oh absolutely. This is why I appreciate the fact that you use your powers for good, not evil.

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youpiiz
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby youpiiz » Sun May 10, 2009 10:48 am

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
i should change my tar.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:10 am

sbalive wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:5) gatorlion may not be joining any of us the year after next either, since he/she hasn't taken the LSAT yet. We can still hope.


A-effing-men 8)

(On the other hand, I really wish you were going to the same school as me now - I feel that way about 80% of the posters I see here. The others... wow. Good thing it's a big country with a lot of law schools.)


http://lawschoolnumbers.com/gatorlion

oops.

[For part II: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84643&start=100 ]

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vanwinkle
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Re: what's the lowest ranked law school you would attend?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:12 am

Holy revived thread, Batman.

(Also, gatorlion should feel blessed that UVA chose to honor him with a WL, with that pathetic LSAT score.)




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